INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

[StealthSniper]

As you can see in the above picture for "top comparison" the Vikramaditya is not as good design compared to the Vikrant class carrier. The reason why is because you can see how the aircraft comes up onto the deck. The Vikramaditya has the plane come up and down in the middle of the deck which blocks the plane from arriving on the deck or leaving the deck when the deck is down.

The Vikrant class has a much better way of bringing the plane on top the deck and when the plane is coming onto the deck planes can still take off and land if needed.

 

[RPK]

The Hindu : News / International : Russia, India racing to wrap up Gorshkov price revision talks

Indian and Russian negotiators are racing to wrap up talks on a revised deal on the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov in time for Defence Minister A.K. Antony's visit to Russia next week.

Mr. Antony is arriving in Moscow on October 13 on a three-day visit to co-chair the Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation with his Russian counterpart, Anatoly Serdyukov.Price revision talks on the Gorshkov modernisation are “in the final leg,” Anatoly Isaikin, Director-General of the Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport, told the Interfax-AVN newswire on Wednesday.

“We have made very good progress and have all chances to conclude talks with a mutually acceptable result in the very near future.”Under a 2004 package deal worth $1.5 billion, Russia was to upgrade the Gorshkov — rechristened INS Vikramaditya — for $750 million.

The other half of the price was earmarked for the manufacture of 16 MiG-29K fighter aircraft for use on the aircraft carrier.

The deal, however, was drawn up on the basis of what Indian officials admitted was a mere “visual examination” of the vessel, and a physical verification of the ship last year revealed the need for massive additional work and pushed back the delivery date to 2012, fours years behind the original schedule.

Russia said it would take an extra $1.2 billion to complete the refit, whereas the Indian side estimated the revised cost of the Gorshkov package at $2.2 billion.

Even as the sides wrangled over a new price, the Sevmash shipyard continued the refit and took the vessel out of the dry dock in August after completing 50 per cent of the work.

Sevmash head Nikolai Kalistratov said on Tuesday that the shipyard had stepped up work after India made a $102 million advance payment recently, in addition to the $500 million paid earlier.

Mr. Kalistratov said the number of workers on INS Vikramaditya had been increased to 2,500, and by the end of the week, they would have lifted aboard all the 1,800 pieces of equipment that were to be installed on the aircraft carrier.

The Russian government earlier this week allocated four billion roubles ($135 million) to Sevmash to help the shipyard cope with its workload.

 

[RPK]

http://www.ptinews.com/news/322264_Gorshkov-deal-may-be-finalised-during-Antony-s-Russia-visit

Gorshkov deal may be finalised during Antony's Russia visit

New Delhi, Oct 9 (PTI) India is likely to finalise a fresh deal with Russia for purchase of aircraft carrier 'Admiral Gorshkov' besides holding talks on decades-old defence cooperation between them during a three-day visit of Defence Minister A K Antony to Moscow next week.

Though officially the Indian side is declining to admit, Defence Ministry sources said here that the deal for refit of Gorshkov, for which Russia is demanding USD 2.9 billion from India as against the 2004 contracted price of USD 974 million, would be signed during Antony's visit beginning October 13.

The Defence Minister will also be holding discussions on taking forward on-going projects such as development of fifth generation fighter aircraft, production of T-90 tanks and issues relating to BrahMos missiles and Sukhoi upgrades.

 

[nitesh]

conflicting news coming in:

No Gorshkov deal during Antony's trip: Rediff.com news

 

[bengalraider]

those centre deck aircraft lift are the worst aspect of the gorshkov design they shall severly limit the rate of aircraft deployment.

 

[youngindian]

India, Russia to continue negotiations on aircraft carrier

October 15th, 2009

New Delhi, Oct 15 (IANS) India and Russia have failed to reach agreement on the revised cost of the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov that the Indian Navy has purchased and negotiations on this are to continue, it was announced Thursday.
The issue was expected to have been resolved during Defence Minister A.K. Antony’s two-day visit to Moscow that concluded Thursday. However, no breakthrough could be achieved in spite of Antony’s meeting with his Russian counterpart, Anatoliy Serdyukov.

“On the sale of the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, both sides agreed that the cost negotiations would continue to find a mutually acceptable solution,” a defence ministry statement said.

The deal for Gorshkov was signed in 2004 for $1.5 billion. Of this, approximately $948 million was meant for the ship’s refit and the balance for the 16 MiG-29 fighters and Kamov anti-submarine warfare helicopters it will carry.

The project hit the headlines in 2007 as the Russians increased the price and the delivery date was pushed back almost four years to 2012.

The two sides have been carrying on price negotiations for more than two years. India is unwilling to pay what it considers an unreasonable escalation that has nearly doubled the cost of the aircraft carrier.

According to senior officials involved in the negotiations with Russia, the newly quoted price fluctuates between $2.2 billion and $2.9 billion.

The carrier will be named INS Vikramaditya when it is commissioned in the Indian Navy.

India, Russia to continue negotiations on aircraft carrier

 

[AJSINGH]

As you can see in the above picture for "top comparison" the Vikramaditya is not as good design compared to the Vikrant class carrier. The reason why is because you can see how the aircraft comes up onto the deck. The Vikramaditya has the plane come up and down in the middle of the deck which blocks the plane from arriving on the deck or leaving the deck when the deck is down.

The Vikrant class has a much better way of bringing the plane on top the deck and when the plane is coming onto the deck planes can still take off and land if needed.

well i would say that IN knows what its buying and the aspect of it ( they were looking at that aircraft carrier from early 1990s ) so they must be having good reasons for buying that AC

 

[K Factor]

well i would say that IN knows what its buying and the aspect of it ( they were looking at that aircraft carrier from early 1990s ) so they must be having good reasons for buying that AC

Gorshkov was supposed to be a stop gap measure as Viraat was scheduled to retire in 2008 and the Vikrant class IAC will not be ready before 2012-14. Hence, the Navy's thinking in this regard is questionable.

 

[RPK]

Gorshkov price talks may extend beyond PM’s visit to Russia

Link

No end seems to be in sight in the protracted price negotiation for Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, which is likely to extend beyond prime minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Moscow next month, increasing uncertainty over its timely delivery in 2012.

“The negotiations with the Russians for the Gorshkov warship is continuing. I do not think the talks are likely to end before the prime minister’s visit to Moscow next month,” a defence ministry official said here today.
“During Singh’s visit to Moscow in December, only two defence agreements would be signed…to extend military and technical cooperation by another 10 years to 2020, and for assured after-sales maintenance and spare parts supply of Russian defence equipment used by the Indian Armed Forces,” the official said.

When asked if the new price for the 45,000-tonne Gorshkov, for which the Russians are demanding an additional $2.9 billion, could be clinched, he replied in the negative, noting that the talks may not conclude before Singh’s visit.

“The talks for a new price could go into next year,” he added. The Kiev-class warship was originally scheduled for delivery in 2008.

The Indian side has held a series of talks at various levels on the escalating costs and delivery delays with the Russians, including during defence minister Antony’s visit to Moscow last month, and is keen on bringing down the additional cost to about $2.2 billion. India plans to have the Gorshkov — bought in 2004 for $974 million along with 16 MiG-29K fighter jets for $526 million and rechristened INS Vikramaditya — by 2012 before the Navy’s lone aircraft carrier INS Viraat is decommissioned from service.

It is also building an Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) at its Cochin Shipyard in Kerala and the first in the series of three IACs is likely to be delivered by 2015.

But the Russians pushing for a price hike since 2007 citing escalating cost of refitting the warship at their Sevmash shipyard and additional cabling work may derail the Navy’s plans.

In its latest report, the CAG has pulled up the defence ministry for the “300 per cent” increase in the cost of the “second hand” aircraft carrier to $3.9 billion whereas a brand new aircraft carrier was available at about $4 billion to $5 billion.

However, the Navy’s argument in favour of Gorshkov has been the unwillingness of other countries building aircraft carriers to sell the platform to India.

 

[icecoolben]

Third indigenous carrier to make up for gokskov

The saga goes on and on. every hike in repair bills of the ship pushes dead lines away and patience thin. A vague promise of delivery by 2012 has the same odd ring as promise of 2008 delivery, by criminal charges getting filed against the shipyard manager, there is bound to be management change which would complicate matters and add more time to delivery. All this for a second hand carrier at a price of new one at half the life. The russian naval admirals casual words that its own force requires such a ship and would induct it if the deal fell through shows true russian colours. All this for a low capacity 20 aircraft make up carrier, while our own vikrant is capable of fielding 30 mig-ks at 40,000 tons vs the gorkov's 45,000. There factors must weigh heavily on our naval planners mind. Can't v get out b'cos v r too drenched into the shit. I don't think so.
Lets think of the alternate. A heavy heart of losing a russian ship would weigh on both governments . But its better than a broken one. Its time we took the brave decision of pulling out of this contract. The russian fleet would be more than happy to field it. The funds can be worked out to be transfered to other projects like cruise missile programs, or air to air missile programs etc. With virat's lease of life extended upto 2016. It is quite possible that v might have our first indigenous carrier operational by then. If indian navy and cochin docks fast track the project at enough pace, we might be even able to operate a 2 carrier force for a brief period between 2014-2016. Then regaining that capacity after 2018 with the second vikrant class ship again named INS virat joining the fleet.
But with our navy planning a three carrier force a room exits to field another carrier with substancial upgrades to the older two. With increased capacity 50 k tons, fighter numbers would increase phenomenally. If our venture to develop EMALS had been succeeded by then we could field it on the ship and put e-2d hawkeye to its true capability of ocean survilance which requires catapult launch. Tejas could also develop a carrier variant if programme had matured enough. It would be even apt if v named the ship the INS Vikramaditya.

 

[Vladimir79]

The saga goes on and on. every hike in repair bills of the ship pushes dead lines away and patience thin. A vague promise of delivery by 2012 has the same odd ring as promise of 2008 delivery,

How does it have an odd ring when the 2008 delievery was only based on a preliminary inspection? We know full well now what needs to be done.

by criminal charges getting filed against the shipyard manager, there is bound to be management change which would complicate matters and add more time to delivery.

Criminal charges were filled with project cleanup initiated to clear corruption and incompetence from the system. It has only a positive effect. Now crews are working 3 shifts per day to finish it. As long as funding continues, it will be completed on or even before schedule.

All this for a second hand carrier at a price of new one at half the life. The russian naval admirals casual words that its own force requires such a ship and would induct it if the deal fell through shows true russian colours.

What else would we do with it?

All this for a low capacity 20 aircraft make up carrier, while our own vikrant is capable of fielding 30 mig-ks at 40,000 tons vs the gorkov's 45,000. There factors must weigh heavily on our naval planners mind. Can't v get out b'cos v r too drenched into the shit. I don't think so.

Vikrant class is designed to hold 30 aerocraft total, no loadout is going to be made up without helicopters. Gorhskov will have an enlarged hanger to accomodate the same number of aerocraft.

Lets think of the alternate. A heavy heart of losing a russian ship would weigh on both governments . But its better than a broken one. Its time we took the brave decision of pulling out of this contract. The russian fleet would be more than happy to field it.

Your first carrier won't be ready for deployment until at least 2014 --- and lets be realistic here, it will probably be several more years until all the design flaws are worked out of it, like 2017. Can India afford to go five years without a fully operational carrier? Absolutely not. The naval aviators tradition would be a distant memory by then and would have to be restarted from scratch. We are already seeing signs of increased pilot error among naval pilots. It cannot be done.

The funds can be worked out to be transfered to other projects like cruise missile programs, or air to air missile programs etc. With virat's lease of life extended upto 2016. It is quite possible that v might have our first indigenous carrier operational by then.

Viraat cannot operate MiG-29K or LCA, the Harrier fleet is finished by 2012 and so is Viraat. It might be able to operate as a helo platform but little else.

If indian navy and cochin docks fast track the project at enough pace, we might be even able to operate a 2 carrier force for a brief period between 2014-2016. Then regaining that capacity after 2018 with the second vikrant class ship again named INS virat joining the fleet.

Pipedreams --- seriously. You have never built a carrier before, how can you expect to speed anything up? You haven't even laid the second hull down yet. If we take the usual "Indian timetable" of expected dates, the first Vikrant won't be operational until ??? well, a LONG TIME. MoD knows to expect delays as they are highly used to it which is why Gorshkov is the only option.

But with our navy planning a three carrier force a room exits to field another carrier with substancial upgrades to the older two. With increased capacity 50 k tons, fighter numbers would increase phenomenally. If our venture to develop EMALS had been succeeded by then we could field it on the ship and put e-2d hawkeye to its true capability of ocean survilance which requires catapult launch. Tejas could also develop a carrier variant if programme had matured enough. It would be even apt if v named the ship the INS Vikramaditya.

Wouldn't that be nice --- if only. :connie_searchingsky

 

[nitesh]

vlad saar, isn't Indians are also working on finishing off Gorshakov I read a news about 500 Indian workers in Russia to speed up the things. How true is this news?

 

[icecoolben]

Do russians have a viable carrier programme now mr, vlad.

 

[Vladimir79]

vlad saar, isn't Indians are also working on finishing off Gorshakov I read a news about 500 Indian workers in Russia to speed up the things. How true is this news?

India offered 500 workers last year, but work shortage was not the problem. It was the workers going on strike for not getting paid. India hadn't made any funds available in a long time at that point and Russian MoD wasn't about to foot the bill which lead to delays. Now that India has made more funds availabe, the work crew has more than doubled from 1,200 workers to 2,500 working in three shifts.

 

[enlightened1]

 

[icecoolben]

are u sure thats goskov layout, how did it translate into this ship.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/SHIP_CV_Admiral_Gorshkov_lg.jpg

 

[enlightened1]

are u sure thats goskov layout, how did it translate into this ship.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/SHIP_CV_Admiral_Gorshkov_lg.jpg

Yeah it's the Vikramaditya, the pic you have posted is of the cruiser that it was...before the refurbishments. Here,

 

[RAM]

Russia, India agree to sign new deal on aircraft carrier overhaul
16:1515/11/20

DUBAI, November 15 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will soon sign a new deal with India on additional funds to finish a refit of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport said on Sunday."The negotiations were uneasy but the Indian side treated with understanding the existing problems. They recognized the need to additionally finance the contract and in the near future this will be formalized," Mikhail Zavaliy, Rosoboronexport director for special missions said at a major air show in the Middle EastThe Dubai Air Show is running on November 15-19 in the United Arab Emirates. Over 900 companies from about 50 countries, including 24 Russian firms, take part in the event.


Under the original $1.5 billion 2004 contract between Russia's state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport and the Indian Navy, which includes delivery of MiG-29K Fulcrum carrier-based fighters, the work on the aircraft carrier was to have been completed in 2008.

However, Russia later claimed it had underestimated the scale and the cost of the modernization, and asked for an additional $1.2 billion, which New Delhi said was "exorbitant."

After long-running delays and disputes, India offered in February 2008 to raise the refit costs for the aircraft carrier, docked at the Sevmash shipyard in northern Russia for the past 12 years, by up to $600 million.Russia said it was not satisfied with the proposed amount and the issue of the additional funding remained unresolved until now.

Admiral Gorshkov is a modified Kiev class aircraft carrier, originally named Baku.

The ship was laid down in 1978 at the Nikolayev South shipyard in Ukraine, launched in 1982, and commissioned with the Soviet Navy in 1987.It was renamed after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.In 1994, following a boiler room explosion, the Admiral Gorshkov sat in dock for a year for repairs. After a brief return to service in 1995, it was finally withdrawn from service in 1996 and put up for sale.The ship's displacement is 45,000 tons. It has maximum speed of 32 knots and an endurance of 13,500 nautical miles (25,000 km) at a cruising speed of 18 knots.

Russia, India agree to sign new deal on aircraft carrier overhaul | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

 

[icecoolben]

Couldn't v have supplied all the equipment that the carrier was constructed of, that would have saved so much cost over-runs. And indian industry would have benefitted. Russia would also have modernised its shipyard.

 

[bengalraider]

Couldn't v have supplied all the equipment that the carrier was constructed of, that would have saved so much cost over-runs. And indian industry would have benefitted. Russia would also have modernised its shipyard.

we could not have supplied much of this equipment in fact even the steel used in warship construction was imported from Russia until recently(we have now started production thanks mainly to mishrit dhatu nigam and SAIL).