vishwaprasad
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very true....US got big deals such as C-17's, C-130's, AH-64's but when it comes to front line game changers it was Rafale all the way.....
INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier
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average american
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"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion"
I am not very comfortable of buying defense equipment (Plane/Choppers/Ships) from the US, what there to stop them from bugging the same, so they can track its ware bouts and may be also syphon information through it. I had read this a couple of years back when a plane provided by the US was bugged so they could eves drop on the delegation using it.
What luck found it: China finds spy bugs in Jiang's Boeing jet - Telegraph
Imagine they do that to the Planes and Helicopters they are going to supply us, even the M-777 howitzers what if they integrate tracking with the electronics so they can pinpoint the location of these guns/aircrafts wouldn't that information come handy to any adversary.
I am not sure which Forum/Site but it was about the Indian Air force and American Air force exercise, in it one of the officer had mentioned that the american Pilots already knew how our Communication equipment installed on the Su 30 MKI worked and that was surprising as per the officer, since that was the first time the American had seen the Su-30 MKI.
So buying an AC from then, I am not in favor of it. I somehow don't trust them; I know they can do the same through their agent in Russia but dealing directly is like giving then the key to your house. they talk all sugary on the top and could be drilling a hole in our defense.
So please No AC from them, who knows they will install a Kill switch which could stop the AC dead in sea..
What luck found it: China finds spy bugs in Jiang's Boeing jet - Telegraph
Imagine they do that to the Planes and Helicopters they are going to supply us, even the M-777 howitzers what if they integrate tracking with the electronics so they can pinpoint the location of these guns/aircrafts wouldn't that information come handy to any adversary.
I am not sure which Forum/Site but it was about the Indian Air force and American Air force exercise, in it one of the officer had mentioned that the american Pilots already knew how our Communication equipment installed on the Su 30 MKI worked and that was surprising as per the officer, since that was the first time the American had seen the Su-30 MKI.
So buying an AC from then, I am not in favor of it. I somehow don't trust them; I know they can do the same through their agent in Russia but dealing directly is like giving then the key to your house. they talk all sugary on the top and could be drilling a hole in our defense.
So please No AC from them, who knows they will install a Kill switch which could stop the AC dead in sea..
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I doubt that Unkil bugs Military equipment sold to the Indian Military... here are my reasons why
1. Im sure we don't have idiots in the MoD or Military, they would find them and Unkil knows that and would not do something stupid like that even if it wanted to, I also think that its kind of insulting to our military that you suggested that for this reason
2 What does Unkil Sam get from bugging our military? [BTW all of those skeptics of US on DFI thinking that Unkil is hell bent against India, can anyone of you explain to me what the US would gain from it?]
3 Any military deals are worth a lot of money not just to the defense companies but a nice commission to the pentagon, DoD would never something stupid like "bugging" equipment sold to India
Rafale didn't win because France was selling it to us ... its because it was far better for our requirements than the F-16's or F-18's
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I like C-17's, C-130's, AH-64's Great Teeth for our Defence, but I dont want to get stuck with equipment who's spares get caught in some Sanctions. Any ways let's not get in to a debate as to why/who/what it pretty clear that you are open to the purchase of Equipment from them where as i say: when dealing with someone who sleeps with your foe you should be carefull when dealing with them..Who knows when they out smart us...
Now Lets get back to INS-VIKRAMADITYA...When are you coming, just can wait to see you touch our shores.
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Going to war without France is like going into battle without bullets. Remember your war for independence?
average american
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If I recall we won you all still lost.
If your worry is spares being caught in sanctions then let me turn your attention to your own statement "Now Lets get back to INS-VIKRAMADITYA...When are you coming" ....
This is exactly why I never understand you people that have absolutely no trust in Unkil Sam at all, when you are willing to trust Russia with out second thought... lets look at facts...
1. Almost every order that MoD has made with the US has been delivered on time, many times ahead of time
2. Almost every order from Russia is either delayed/price is hiked or out right just robbing us in this case all are true with the VIKRAMADITYA... Russians sold us a ship calming it was sea worthy when it was not, grossly underestimating the price, and giving a time frame that they knew was not possible
3. Cold war is over, and the US foreign policy towards India has been much better in the past 20 years... as a matter of fact give me at least one scenario where the US would impose sanctions on India
4. IIRC India chose not to abide by the US sanctions on Iran and still is getting military equipment form the US
If you really look at the situation you will find that unkil is the lesser of the 2 evils, also one has to realize that US equipment is better than the Russians... there was a parity between the 2 before 1990 but 20 years from then the lack of funding is showing the difference and so its no fluke that C 130, C 17, AH 64, Chinook, P 8i, M 777 all went to Unkil
Personally I think the way for the future for the IN is to have nuclear air craft carriers with EMALS, It would not be a bad Idea get one from Unkil even if its just to get operational experience for the IN.... I will point you to a recent example... IN got the USS Austin and LPD for practically free with helos from the US and yes some have argued that there were restrictions on its use in the agreement but despite that IN now has experience in operating a LPD of that size for just 50 Million USD ... there is no other nation that could have provided that kind of service to India for that cost period
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Good you brought-up this point about restrictions on usage, If i am buying something from you for what every amount, Once you decide to sell it to me, who are you to decide where i can use it as long as i don't use it for illegal practices.
If you can provide military Aid/ humanitarian Aid (which by the way as every one knows gets redirected for defence) to those who you claim promots Terrorism, then why do you dictate where i use what i have bought..
They can sell me Something for peanuts, but if you say you can't use it for this, you can't use it for that, then your on time delivery is of no use to me.
Yes i will gain experience in operating it, but if i can't park it in your face then i don't want it, i may wait for something a bit longer, so i can use it where ever i want...
As far as Price hike and delays are concerned, all we need to do is clean-up our act and be firm to our suppliers, who ever they are and they all fall in line and once we achive that we will have all we want when ever we want and where ever we want..
Who knows the Indian Govt may be making all these purchases to send a message to it's existing supplier to clean up their act or they will lose out.
So who every we buy our equipment from, lets hope that in the end India is the one who benifits from it..
Looks like we differ in the way we both look at military procurement... but here is what I have to say, There is no denying that it is much more advantageous for us to have access to Unkil tech. This does not mean that we have to be in Unkils camp or have to be some puppet sate...
Yeah I agree Unkil gives money to Pak and it is misdirected but you have to understand that is not a move by Unkil aimed to destabilize India its just a tax that they are paying for Pakistan's "SUPPORT" on the "war on terror.... don't forget India played a similar game with LTTE and Sri Lanka, our government played both sides for a while and now we sold them naval ships that they use against INDIAN fisherman in Tamil Nadu...
You have to look to the future, and I don't see the Pak-US relationship lasting beyond the Afghan war [2014], nor do I see Unkil selling Pak any important military equipment in the future.... on the other hand looking at the past years looks like USG wants to develop a strong relation with India not just militarily but economically.
Russia, France and Germany sell to both India and Pakistan with different types of restrictions but none of them will let you "park it in your face"
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With reference to your last Quote: You dont sell and buy weapons from a country you intend to go to war with, but you dont want to be told directly or indirectly that you can not use wepons against your arch rival. Thou i am sure when the time comes we would end up using it againt anyone who poses a threat to us.
The partnership between the US and Pak will never end, they may show it is coming to an end but that will never happen. It has always been there and will always be there in one way or another.
I am not so conviced with the facts provided that the US is the best option as a defence supplier for india, hence I shall end this particular thread 1stly as we are moving away from the parent thread which is related (INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier), 2ndly At this point in time you would not be able to change my preference for a defence vendor for India, but may be in the future..
Ganesh2691
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The date indicates the photograph was taken on October 25, 2012, after the the warship completed its maiden sea trials in September.
Latest Satellite Imagery Eyeballing Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya in Russia - AA Me, IN
Latest Satellite Imagery Eyeballing Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya in Russia - AA Me, IN
sathya
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India To Get Soviet-era Aircraft Carrier in 2013
NEW DELHI — India on Nov. 26 said long-time ally Russia would finally hand over a refurbished aircraft carrier next year and end a bitter dispute over the Soviet-era warship caused by rising costs and delays.
The Admiral Gorshkov, now 30 years old, is to fill a vacuum left by the scrapping in 1997 of India's first aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, which had been in service since 1961.
Defense Minister A.K. Antony told parliament that the end of 2013 has been set as the latest date for the delivery of the 44,570-ton aircraft carrier, renamed INS Vikramaditya by India.
"The delivery of Vikramaditya has been delayed to the last quarter of 2013 against the envisaged delivery schedule of December 2012," Antony told parliament's lower house in a statement.
The Indian navy currently has only one operational aircraft carrier, the INS Viraat, which is to be phased out. It is also planning to build one locally.
Moscow accounts for 70 percent of Indian arms supplies, but late deliveries and commercial disagreements have led New Delhi to use other suppliers such as Israel, Britain, France and the United States.
The original delivery date was August 2008, he said, and added its price tag was fixed at $978.4 million in 2004 when the deal was signed, but it was "revised" to $2.3 billion for delivery in 2012.
"The total cost of the project will remain at $2.3 billion at the time of delivery in the last quarter of 2013," he assured parliament and added technical glitches during trials in the year led to the delay.
The warship required new turbines, boilers, 2,500 kilometers (1,500 miles) of cabling and reinforcement of its flight deck as part of the deal between India and Russian defense export firm Rosoboronexport.
Under the contract, Russian shipyard Sevmash has equipped the vessel with modern weapons, 16 MiG-29 fighter jets and a fleet of anti-submarine helicopters.
The shipyard has insisted the dramatic rise in the cost is mainly due to Indian demands for features not included in the original contract.
Russia last December handed over the 8,140-ton nuclear-powered attack submarine Nerpa to India following more than two years of delays.
India To Get Soviet-era Aircraft Carrier in 2013 | Defense News | defensenews.com
NEW DELHI — India on Nov. 26 said long-time ally Russia would finally hand over a refurbished aircraft carrier next year and end a bitter dispute over the Soviet-era warship caused by rising costs and delays.
The Admiral Gorshkov, now 30 years old, is to fill a vacuum left by the scrapping in 1997 of India's first aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, which had been in service since 1961.
Defense Minister A.K. Antony told parliament that the end of 2013 has been set as the latest date for the delivery of the 44,570-ton aircraft carrier, renamed INS Vikramaditya by India.
"The delivery of Vikramaditya has been delayed to the last quarter of 2013 against the envisaged delivery schedule of December 2012," Antony told parliament's lower house in a statement.
The Indian navy currently has only one operational aircraft carrier, the INS Viraat, which is to be phased out. It is also planning to build one locally.
Moscow accounts for 70 percent of Indian arms supplies, but late deliveries and commercial disagreements have led New Delhi to use other suppliers such as Israel, Britain, France and the United States.
The original delivery date was August 2008, he said, and added its price tag was fixed at $978.4 million in 2004 when the deal was signed, but it was "revised" to $2.3 billion for delivery in 2012.
"The total cost of the project will remain at $2.3 billion at the time of delivery in the last quarter of 2013," he assured parliament and added technical glitches during trials in the year led to the delay.
The warship required new turbines, boilers, 2,500 kilometers (1,500 miles) of cabling and reinforcement of its flight deck as part of the deal between India and Russian defense export firm Rosoboronexport.
Under the contract, Russian shipyard Sevmash has equipped the vessel with modern weapons, 16 MiG-29 fighter jets and a fleet of anti-submarine helicopters.
The shipyard has insisted the dramatic rise in the cost is mainly due to Indian demands for features not included in the original contract.
Russia last December handed over the 8,140-ton nuclear-powered attack submarine Nerpa to India following more than two years of delays.
India To Get Soviet-era Aircraft Carrier in 2013 | Defense News | defensenews.com
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I thought they were going to hand over the ship by June 2013, What $#%&.. COME ON.... one whole year :shocked:
... I think we better get our shipyards to consrtuct ACs start small and then go large..even if it is diesel driven..something better that nothing..
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