India's own AESA Radars....dream to reality

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Is K-10 turbo Engine, being developed with assistance from Snecma of France, the designated Engine for AMCA?

That's what I said. France, Russia and US have offered their engines (ToT) Snecma, Saturn, GE414, respectively. We haven't chosen the winning bidder yet. Whichever engine we select will be used to upgrade and make a Kaveri Hybrid. Then a twin-engine config of this hybrid engine will be used for AMCA.

This is also why the Rafale deal has been delayed. Our plan is possibly to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf as a stop-gap solution which will give us some breathing time (~10 years), and within that 10 years, do a JV with Snecma for the AMCA project. So instead of adding more Rafales to the 36, we will be adding AMCAs since both fit in the same bracket (twin engine multirole plane). That's the combo deal that is being negotiated right now. If the combo deal is agreed upon then we buy ( 36 Rafale + Snecma JV ) package, if combo deal fails then we buy 36 Rafale + JV with Russia or USA for AMCA. Hopefully we will strike a deal with France. We are trying not to buy more than 36 Rafale because that will mean we will never have an opportunity to build an indigenous mass manufacturing base in India.

 

[Anupu]

Is K-10 turbo Engine, being developed with assistance from Snecma of France, the designated Engine for AMCA?

I don't think so K-10 is doesn't have a prototype yet and Kaveri achieved max thrust of about 58-59 KN. Even M88 had max thrust of 75KN. India needs a 120 KN engine for AMCA and the idea would be to use an upgraded version of GE F414 for this. US is planing to build one for upgrading it's F-18's. India can get them under a similar agreement as we had for AL-31.

 

[Anupu]

That's what I said. France, Russia and US have offered their engines (ToT) Snecma, Saturn, GE414, respectively. We haven't chosen the winning bidder yet. Whichever engine we select will be used to upgrade and make a Kaveri Hybrid. Then a twin-engine config of this hybrid engine will be used for AMCA.

This is also why the Rafale deal has been delayed. Our plan is possibly to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf as a stop-gap solution which will give us some breathing time (~10 years), and within that 10 years, do a JV with Snecma for the AMCA project. So instead of adding more Rafales to the 36, we will be adding AMCAs since both fit in the same bracket (twin engine multirole plane). That's the combo deal that is being negotiated right now. If the combo deal is agreed upon then we buy ( 36 Rafale + Snecma JV ) package, if combo deal fails then we buy 36 Rafale + JV with Russia or USA for AMCA. Hopefully we will strike a deal with France. We are trying not to buy more than 36 Rafale because that will mean we will never have an opportunity to build an indigenous mass manufacturing base in India.

Can you give me the reference where you found this?

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Can you give me the reference where you found this?

The first paragraph is based on hard facts which find a mention in the official wikipedia page of AMCA. The second para is my derivative opinion based on the facts. Rafale uses Snecma engine. It would be impossible that they would negotiate about the 36 Rafales and not talk about a larger Snecma collaboration deal for AMCA since France has offered that particular engine for our AMCA competition. It is in France's interest to secure a bulk order for their engines, and it is in India's interest if that bulk order comes with a ToT. It kills two birds with one stone, as far as India is concerned. It immunizes us from any future arms embargo since we will be manufacturing it locally.

I don't think so K-10 is doesn't have a prototype yet and Kaveri achieved max thrust of about 58-59 KN. Even M88 had max thrust of 75KN. India needs a 120 KN engine for AMCA and the idea would be to use an upgraded version of GE F414 for this. US is planing to build one for upgrading it's F-18's. India can get them under a similar agreement as we had for AL-31.

The US has offered a custom design-develop-manufacture offer for GE F414S6 IN tailor made for Indian requirements and climate, for the Tejas project. This has been accepted. They have made a similar offer for our AMCA project but we have two other offers. It looks more likely like this could be M88 instead of GE414 or Russian engine.

 

[Anupu]

The first paragraph is based on hard facts which find a mention in the official wikipedia page of AMCA. The second para is my derivative opinion based on the facts. Rafale uses Snecma engine. It would be impossible that they would negotiate about the 36 Rafales and not talk about a larger Snecma collaboration deal for AMCA since France has offered that particular engine for our AMCA competition. It is in France's interest to secure a bulk order for their engines, and it is in India's interest if that bulk order comes with a ToT. It kills two birds with one stone, as far as India is concerned. It immunizes us from any future arms embargo since we will be manufacturing it locally.

Hey, I was just asking . But Scenma no experience of building a 120 KN engine before. Tejas uses F-414 and USN has a plan to upgrade to F-414 EPE for F-18's. Plus we have DTTI agreement especially for a hot weather engine. What do you think?

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Hey, I was just asking . But Scenma no experience of building a 120 KN engine before. Tejas uses F-414 and USN has a plan to upgrade to F-414 EPE for F-18's. Plus we have DTTI agreement especially for a hot weather engine. What do you think?

The wikipedia page mentions that there are some components of the Kaveri engine that have done exceedingly well and India will choose to retain those engine parts in any future engine we choose for AMCA. So whether it is M88 or AL 31 or GE414, we will not be buying any engine off the shelf. We will use some of their parts and fuse them with some of ours to make the final engine. In that sense we are building a Kaveri + (M88 Or GE414) hybrid engine. Probably that hybrid M88 will attain the desired thrust.

This is what Wiki says :

Engine development on K 9 and K 10 started in August 2012 by Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE). A tender of joint venture on development of the engine was issued to Engine manufacturers in 2015 for a foreign partner to help in developing the engine by combining both Kaveri engine technology with the joint-venture partners engine to create a 110–125 KTN thrust engine.

 

[guru-dutt]

The first paragraph is based on hard facts which find a mention in the official wikipedia page of AMCA. The second para is my derivative opinion based on the facts. Rafale uses Snecma engine. It would be impossible that they would negotiate about the 36 Rafales and not talk about a larger Snecma collaboration deal for AMCA since France has offered that particular engine for our AMCA competition. It is in France's interest to secure a bulk order for their engines, and it is in India's interest if that bulk order comes with a ToT. It kills two birds with one stone, as far as India is concerned. It immunizes us from any future arms embargo since we will be manufacturing it locally.



The US has offered a custom design-develop-manufacture offer for GE F414S6 IN tailor made for Indian requirements and climate, for the Tejas project. This has been accepted. They have made a similar offer for our AMCA project but we have two other offers. It looks more likely like this could be M88 instead of GE414 or Russian engine.

no yamreeka fill never let frenchies take the engine deal to my knowledge GE engine again will take the cake as it is much better and proven and of course cheaper than M88 which frenchies have in past made a huge blunder when they rejected the GTRE offer to co develop kaveri engine in short M88 will again be trumped by GE414 EPE turbofan

 

[Anupu]

The wikipedia page mentions that there are some components of the Kaveri engine that have done exceedingly well and India will choose to retain those engine parts in any future engine we choose for AMCA. So whether it is M88 or AL 31 or GE414, we will not be buying any engine off the shelf. We will use some of their parts and fuse them with some of ours to make the final engine. In that sense we are building a Kaveri + (M88 Or GE414) hybrid engine. Probably that hybrid M88 will attain the desired thrust.

This is what Wiki says :

Engine development on K 9 and K 10 started in August 2012 by Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE). A tender of joint venture on development of the engine was issued to Engine manufacturers in 2015 for a foreign partner to help in developing the engine by combining both Kaveri engine technology with the joint-venture partners engine to create a 110–125 KTN thrust engine.

I doubt it, if we plan to get a prototype of AMCA flying by 2022-25 we can't trust K-10, it's a paper engine. And don't trust the wiki, it's rarely updated or corrected. I don't trust GTRE, I think HAL should try build an engine, as they have some experience in actually building one. Also Kaveri isn't doing really well, there is a reason why it has stalled. So most likely we will use F-414 as it is with some tweaks done by GTRE.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

I doubt it, if we plan to get a prototype of AMCA flying by 2022-25 we can't trust K-10, it's a paper engine. And don't trust the wiki, it's rarely updated or corrected. I don't trust GTRE, I think HAL should try build an engine, as they have some experience in actually building one. Also Kaveri isn't doing really well, there is a reason why it has stalled. So most likely we will use F-414 as it is with some tweaks done by GTRE.

Kaveri didn't live up to the expectations of the Tejas but it has been repurposed not scrapped. It will be powering ships, trains and unmanned stealth drone.

 

[Anupu]

Kaveri didn't live up to the expectations of the Tejas but it has been repurposed not scrapped. It will be powering ships, trains and unmanned stealth drone.

It's not funded anymore. Kaveri was having reliability issues, the technology developed could be used of course, but I don't think, Kaveri will be used in any form on an combat plane. We may build an engine in future, but it's not going to be Kaveri. We need a reliable engine on AMCA, even if it's not indigenous.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

It's not funded anymore. Kaveri was having reliability issues, the technology developed could be used of course, but I don't think, Kaveri will be used in any form on an combat plane. We may build an engine in future, but it's not going to be Kaveri. We need a reliable engine on AMCA, even if it's not indigenous.

Hopefully it is indigenous. We can't take risky military decisions if our critical parts are imported.

 

[Anupu]

Hopefully it is indigenous. We can't take risky military decisions if our critical parts are imported.

I think we take this indigenous thing very emotionally, see if we don't have an engine, it's not a big deal, you can get it's technology, manufacture it locally and you are free, even in war-time you can build them locally. India has a problem, we don't have a military industrial complex. We don't have a large no of good engineers, I mean we have engineers, but only about 20% are actually any good, and we have even less in the field of aeronautics, material sciences. Most of our Universities do little research; in anything. So, let's be realistic about our goals, and work to improve in future. But I do believe future of India is going to be much better.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

I think we take this indigenous thing very emotionally, see if we don't have an engine, it's not a big deal, you can get it's technology, manufacture it locally and you are free, even in war-time you can build them locally. India has a problem, we don't have a military industrial complex. We don't have a large no of good engineers, I mean we have engineers, but only about 20% are actually any good, and we have even less in the field of aeronautics, material sciences. Most of our Universities do little research; in anything. So, let's be realistic about our goals, and work to improve in future. But I do believe future of India is going to be much better.

Yes, I concur with what you say. By indigenous, I didn't mean ingenuously developed. I mean indigenous manufacturing capacity. It's okay if it is a foreign design as long as we can make 100% of the parts within India.

 

[kr9]

I think we take this indigenous thing very emotionally, see if we don't have an engine, it's not a big deal, you can get it's technology, manufacture it locally and you are free, even in war-time you can build them locally. India has a problem, we don't have a military industrial complex. We don't have a large no of good engineers, I mean we have engineers, but only about 20% are actually any good, and we have even less in the field of aeronautics, material sciences. Most of our Universities do little research; in anything. So, let's be realistic about our goals, and work to improve in future.

:bounce:Lets enact 'conscription' laws:- not for the military but in science and technology.
All scientists, engineers, researchers have to work for 2 years in India. Complete that and we will let you work abroad.
I bet we will have all the best equipment within 5 years (if funded, of course).

@Anupu - I see the flag, please do not take this personally. Look at it as a satire on reality and a compliment to your skills and talents that we are surely missing.

 

[sasum]

It's not funded anymore. Kaveri was having reliability issues, the technology developed could be used of course, but I don't think, Kaveri will be used in any form on an combat plane. We may build an engine in future, but it's not going to be Kaveri. We need a reliable engine on AMCA, even if it's not indigenous.

The issue of turbo-fan blade (throwing) was addressed sometime back with development of light-weight composite material..is it not true ?Other issue of reducing weight of the engine to achieve higher thrust couldn't be resolved. Pl. give update if possible. Too much money, time & sweat have gone into this project to abandon it lock,stock & barrel. Btw, KGMT (Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine) without after-burner is proposed to propel ships, UCAVs etc. It is also proposed to use as a power generator.

 

[Anupu]

:bounce:Lets enact 'conscription' laws:- not for the military but in science and technology.
All scientists, engineers, researchers have to work for 2 years in India. Complete that and we will let you work abroad.
I bet we will have all the best equipment within 5 years (if funded, of course).

@Anupu - I see the flag, please do not take this personally. Look at it as a satire on reality and a compliment to your skills and talents that we are surely missing.

I am probably underserving of your compliments but, I do plan to come back after learning what I have to learn. But the problem in India is that we don't have many good funded labs. And good scientist don't take many PhD students, so either you have to go outside India to study your field or your can't do anything. We don't spend money on education in India yaar, I mean all we do is spend on IIT's and a few universities. I did my b-tech from a small school in RTU and with that kind of education, where the fresh fourth year graduated student is teaching the first year students, you can't produce quality. We need to be very competitive with the world about our educational quality, our research, then surely everyone would be lining up to come back.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

I am probably underserving of your compliments but, I do plan to come back after learning what I have to learn. But the problem in India is that we don't have many good funded labs. And good scientist don't take many PhD students, so either you have to go outside India to study your field or your can't do anything. We don't spend money on education in India yaar, I mean all we do is spend on IIT's and a few universities. I did my b-tech from a small school in RTU and with that kind of education, where the fresh fourth year graduated student is teaching the first year students, you can't produce quality. We need to be very competitive with the world about our educational quality, our research, then surely everyone would be lining up to come back.

Russian syllabus teaches them calculus at 7 th standard level itself. They made a conscious decision in 1980s (I think) to finish all basic algebra type syllabus at 5th standard level and start introducing advanced math, statistics, calculus from 6th standard onwards. Our syllabus teaches us basic percentages and ratios type algebra till 10th standard

 

[Anupu]

The issue of turbo-fan blade (throwing) was addressed sometime back with development of light-weight composite material..is it not true ?Other issue of reducing weight of the engine to achieve higher thrust couldn't be resolved. Pl. give update if possible. Too much money, time & sweat have gone into this project to abandon it lock,stock & barrel. Btw, KGMT (Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine) without after-burner is proposed to propel ships, UCAVs etc. It is also proposed to use as a power generator.

Yes, that was the last official report we got from DRDO about this engine, but after that director of DRDO confirmed in this report that, Kaveri has been scraped. Yes a lot of money was invested in this project, but that's science, sometimes things don't work out. I think it would be better if HAL tried to make an engine, you see they already assemble and service many different kinds of engines right now, under-license of course. So they can take next logical step much easier and try to build there own.

Here is the report
http://www.oneindia.com/bengaluru/o...roject-gtre-gets-revival-package-1565505.html

 

[sasum]

@kr9 Conscription does not pay in creative field. However, forgery, chicanery can to some extent. If you can't invent/ innovate, learn to copy/ reverse engineer.. just as China does. But as they say, " Naqal karne ke liye bhi akal chahiye !!".

 

[Anupu]

Russian syllabus teaches them calculus at 7 th standard level itself. They made a conscious decision in 1980s (I think) to finish all basic algebra type syllabus at 5th standard level and start introducing advanced math, statistics, calculus from 6th standard onwards. Our syllabus teaches us basic percentages and ratios type algebra till 10th standard

Most Americans don't learn calculus in school, they learn it in first year of there college, but they have DARPA, which funds research that can have military applications, whether in robotics or in computer science or material science, even mathematics. They have DARPA challenges, look them up. The whole research community is very competitive, and we have a very lackadaisical attitude in India. Becoming a professor in US requires you to have more than a PhD, a post-doc and a lot of research. Then you become an assistant professor, no tenure (as in you are not permanent). And all these guys are very competitive about getting grants, if I get a grant of say 10 million, I can add 10% of that into my salary. And then more successfully, I conduct my research, more grants I get, hence more money. You see capitalism works for a reason .