India's Future Main Battle Tank, NGMBT

[Armand2REP]

And my point about the laser system simply being flawed in design still stands.
It is not just impracticable but i find improbable that laser active protection system can be built that works. So far lasers have been used to burn field tanks , cook circuits and ignite fuel tanks. Since we can't vaporize incoming projectiles.
Momentum of any explosion will still carry forward toward the tank making it vulnerable at close ranges.

The way they work today is by having a warning receiver detect their emissions and eject smoke grenades. French combat vehicles as well as many other NATO nations use the GALIX self-protection system which has grenades for every threat: IR decoys, smoke, illumination, anti-personnel, limited lethality round and stun grenades. All totally programmable and modular to the mission. Jammers are too much trouble. ADS is the next evolution.

 

[ppgj]

it is intriguing when people keep questioning Arjun's indigenous content when the most critical systems like gun, suspension, armour, projectiles, design wrt crew comfort, heat dissipation and "room" for future upgrades have been taken care of - a big positive compared to our existing MBT's which by the way is wholly imported!!

unless there is an orderbook good enough to sustain development and localising the content to a higher level - how is it possible and feasible?? and this inspite of Arjun validating itself in trials which too were done against foot dragging by the user. sustained involvement and liasion between the user, designers, production agencies - both public and private enterprises is the only way. iterative development and induction is only way products mature everywhere and sustained orders parallely create industries which not only creates the infrastructure but also nurtures pool of designers who can continue R&D with timely infusion of capital for the same. has this been the case with Arjun??

hardly or even remotely.

right thro' this Arjun saga, how even efforts to rope in private enterprises for manufature of certain systems and material ( which could have worked wonders ) went no where because of lack of orders. private companies who create assemblies for the said can't wait for ages for the orders because they have to pay their staff. with no buys, how can one expect them to sustain?? either GOI will have to subsidise or create them at DPSUs - again a stick people beat with!!

after proving itself, Arjun is questioned wrt weight ( better protected), mobility ( Arjun has better power/weight ratio), fire power ( fires unitary rounds with high accuracy, both static and on the move ), transport ( infra available ) etc.. which is simply intriguing. questions regarding maturity of the tank and subsystems and electronics are even more intriguing as first the user does not show any interest, does not involve himself in its development, keeps changing requirements and drags his foot over for the trials to prove the system and when proved does not order decent quantity!!

how can a system mature unless it is inducted in numbers and an iterative development to mature it along the way?? how does the private enterprises sustain their assemblies without orders?? will the user subsidise them?? with paltry numbers is it economically sustainable?? how long we keep importing when better systems are locally available??

ummm..here is one speech made by Lt Gen Niranjan S Malik, PVSM in 2005 who tells the story in a poignant way which still is valid.

i quote sections -

During World War II, India was a base for repair, overhaul and other major military works for the entire south east Asian operations as well as the China and Indian Ocean operations. Considerable amount of industrialisation had perforce taken place. It was but natural that from there we should have taken off and built up our indigenous defence industry. This somehow did not happen. The approach was to acquire equipment from abroad if it was cheaper. This was the background of the Indian defence industry and it has continued despite the fact that we have built up a colossal organisation of defence research. Despite our attempts to be self reliant on various issues there are a number of problems. The MBT Arjun project offers several lessons.

To rubberise the Arjun, the tanks used to be ferried across to Germany by air, rubberised there and then brought back. This was colossally expensive. We requested MRF (Madras Rubber Factory) who agreed to do this. They put up a special factory for that purpose and did it. The numbers required at that time were very meagre. Sometimes it used to be 100 and sometimes it would be only 50. Also, MRF was not sure about when the next order would come. So, they stopped this factory.

MRF stated that they cannot keep the assembly lines waiting and pending forever. There are other examples as well. The Kirloskars were doing the hydroneumatic systems for us. The last order was for 14 tanks. After that there was no order for seven years. For the company, the investment in specialised production lines is a dead waste and they need to be subsidised. One has to ensure that the assembly lines, the technology and the skilled labour are kept alive for defence requirements. I am told now that they are restarting this process at the Kirloskar plant, which did a fabulously good job.

Then there is the problem of diversified equipment in the Army. For instance, it is claimed that 67% of the parts of the T-72 and T-90 are common. I asked the HVF as to why they are importing everything, if 67% of the parts are common between the two tanks. I was told that it was not possible due to the transfer of technology agreement. The question then arises, that if the transfer of technology has already taken place with regard to the T-72, then why were we not able to build the T-90 with the least amount of imported technology? One expects that if you got something once into the country, then we should not be going back again and again for the same thing.

As far as the Arjun is concerned, five have been produced and handed over to the users for trials. Arjun has been worked and thought out for a long period. It is one of the finest pieces of equipment. The Arjun's mobility with its 1400 horsepower engine is very good. The engine however is an old piece of equipment. This powerpack is no longer used in Europe. We got the 1400 horsepower, since the 1500 horsepower engine was only for NATO allies. However it is a big powerpack and the one they produced later is smaller, for which the tank would have to be redesigned and the cost would be astronomical. They said they had stopped manufacturing these engines and if we wanted them they would restart the whole thing for us. This has been done. It has been restarted. The problem lies with placing orders both with the manufacturing agency and the Ministry of Defence (MoD). When we know that we need 124 Arjun MBTs, as well as Bhim SPGs which will carry the same engine, but we do not place orders well in time. I have been told that the orders never went beyond 30 to 40 at one time.

The question is how long will we continue to import tanks? Today we have the T-90s and we are going to start producing it. But somewhere we have to stop. After the T-90 are we going to import either the T-100, the T-200 or the T-300? When Israel first produced the Merkava MBT, Ariel Sharon (presently Prime Minister of Israel) was the DG Combat Vehicles. He walked up to the team and asked them what was the problem. After the team explained the problems, he said that this particular tank would be called Mark I and that they would produce it despite all the problems. The Mark I would be given to the troops and work would start on the Mark II, which would be better than this one. That is how the Israelis did it. Somewhere we have to start producing. Somewhere we need to have the capacity within ourselves to be able to do that and then improve that equipment. Presently this is just not happening.

The engine itself has really no problem, but the problem is with regard to the size of the order. The Arjun's 120mm gun with the FSAPDS (Fin Stabilised Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot) and Hash ammunition, is excellent.

Now we have an excellent fire control system. Arjun is a fine weapons system, though it looks big and very heavy, its tactical silhouette is very low. The T-72 and the Arjun in a hull down position are not very different. In a hull down position, the tank gives you the same silhouette as any other small tank. Also, its speed provides security in the battlefield. Its firepower is tremendous. Particularly on the move, its firepower is very accurate and good. Some people say that the Arjun is not strategically feasible due to its size and weight. However the Arjun has been running all over the railway systems of India and has been running all over the western deserts as well, on or without tank transporters.

The Chinese defence industry has gone so far ahead of us. But we continue to rely on transfer of technology.

Another point that comes in is export and joint ventures of various nature. Export of defence equipment has been taboo. Perhaps if we had encouraged it at some point of time, other industries may have come up, which could have independently developed certain systems and exported them. At one point of time, the South Africans were very keen to tie up with us on the Arjun and wanted to work together. They wanted only about 200 tanks, which they said we could produce for them. That sort of a thing, could also be done. However, it did not happen. Assembly line is another issue. Once it is started, it has to be kept going otherwise you will lose whatever money put into it.

full article here -

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Special/184-Arjun-Experiment.html

some developments pre and post the above -

The first batch of tanks of the 124 ordered by the Army, will have an all digital Sagem FCS, whereas the second block will have the Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) unit, which will be used for all units thereafter.

A local transmission is under trials and will ultimately replace the Renk supplied unit.

The tracks which were being supplied by Diehl are now being manufactured by L&T, an Indian company.

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html

i guess TRACTOR ENGINEERS ( part of L&T ) at -

http://www.larsentoubro.com/lntcorporate/common/ui_templates/homepage_news.aspx?res=P_TNG

- manufacture them.

In the Defence area sample Track sections for MBT Arjun were invoiced. Orders for the T 72 Tracks as also for the MBT Arjun Portal Plates (armour steel) were clinched.

at page 79 of this 2003 annual report -

http://www.lntebg.com/lntebg/lnt/fin-rt/SubsidiaryReport.pdf

here is the link for BEL IGMS which is a fire control system (FCS) which will be on the Arjun.

http://bel-india.com/index.aspx?q=&sectionid=315

bengaluru based Dynamatics technologies also make certain systems for the Arjun tank -

The company produces theHydraulic Transmission Systemfor India's T-72 Battle Tanks including Hydraulic Pumps,Hydraulic Transmissioncouplings and DistributionMechanisms. Additionally, the Company has designed the Steering Control System, TurretControl system and Braking System for the Arjun Main Battle Tank

http://www.dynamatics.com/downloads/prodcat/intro.pdf

from product brochure range 2003.

however with such small orders of Arjun, i wonder how long will these private enterprises sustain the assemblies and keep waiting?? or they will be lost.

really a sad story of a happy outcome.

.........

USA's FCS Programme which was to switch to lighter armoured carriers made sense to them ( to be fully converted by 2030 ) since they deploy globally which is not the case for us. however FCS stands cancelled -

DoD makes it official: FCS is cancelled
June 23, 2009 - 4:45pm

http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=35&sid=1703054

one more link -

http://www.deagel.com/news/US-Armys-Future-Combat-System-FCS-Program-Cancelled_n000006236.aspx

here is DOD memo -

As a result of strategic decisions in formulating the Defense portion of the Fiscal Year (FY) 2010 President's Budget, I hereby cancel the FCS BCT acquisition program.

http://www.federalnewsradio.com/docs/062309FCS.pdf

DOD press release -

http://www.defense.gov/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=12763

 

[san]

My statement has nothing to do with tank strength and numbers manufactured. It is more to do with the design philosophy of tanks for modern tank doctrines. The USSR got the concept right, but managed their best with the technology of the time.

The US is currently trying to replicate whatever the USSR has done until now, only with newer technologies.
Google Future Combat Systems and compare with the old Soviet/Russian Airborne Corps.




I hardly doubt it.


Then they cannot protect your country as they have been doing till now.

How Stupid. They don't choose the tank you want them to choose and you attack their morality.

Tank doctrines and design philosopy is inter-related. Soviet doctorines was based on their experience in WWII. Send three tanks to kill one. So numbers are important. Also they want to manufacture it quickely without very complicated system but reliable and less costly.

But track record shows it may possible. Otherwise how a light tank become a western standar tank?


There is a word called duty. Nobody is doing their duty at free of cost, everybody is paid for it. I am not going to eloborate, but I have the right to tell because I also need to pay tax. I did not want my hard earned money in somebody's pocket. So what we shall do. We need to import toilet papaer and socks for army.

 

[anoop_mig25]

it is intriguing when people keep questioning Arjun's indigenous content when the most critical systems like gun, suspension, armour, projectiles, design wrt crew comfort, heat dissipation and "room" for future upgrades have been taken care of - a big positive compared to our existing MBT's which by the way is wholly imported!!

unless there is an orderbook good enough to sustain development and localising the content to a higher level - how is it possible and feasible?? and this inspite of Arjun validating itself in trials which too were done against foot dragging by the user. sustained involvement and liasion between the user, designers, production agencies - both public and private enterprises is the only way. iterative development and induction is only way products mature everywhere and sustained orders parallely create industries which not only creates the infrastructure but also nurtures pool of designers who can continue R&D with timely infusion of capital for the same. has this been the case with Arjun??

hardly or even remotely.

right thro' this Arjun saga, how even efforts to rope in private enterprises for manufature of certain systems and material ( which could have worked wonders ) went no where because of lack of orders. private companies who create assemblies for the said can't wait for ages for the orders because they have to pay their staff. with no buys, how can one expect them to sustain?? either GOI will have to subsidise or create them at DPSUs - again a stick people beat with!!

after proving itself, Arjun is questioned wrt weight ( better protected), mobility ( Arjun has better power/weight ratio), fire power ( fires unitary rounds with high accuracy, both static and on the move ), transport ( infra available ) etc.. which is simply intriguing. questions regarding maturity of the tank and subsystems and electronics are even more intriguing as first the user does not show any interest, does not involve himself in its development, keeps changing requirements and drags his foot over for the trials to prove the system and when proved does not order decent quantity!!

how can a system mature unless it is inducted in numbers and an iterative development to mature it along the way?? how does the private enterprises sustain their assemblies without orders?? will the user subsidise them?? with paltry numbers is it economically sustainable?? how long we keep importing when better systems are locally available??

so whats the solution for this sirji. i can only say that MoD has to synergy have to make a future plan/concept with every stake holder involve in it how many tanks they require and and them make it through ppp or fully private but then what happens after india has bought all stuff made and as u know our armerd force habit of upgradings all things when their life is over

 

[Tshering22]

I think DRDO must first focus on enhancing Arjun MK2 series into a formidable future tank that can replace T-72s en masse rather than running a dozen parallel "FMBT" projects and not being able to even accomplish a single one. For now, I think Arjun MK2 would sufficiently meet the future requirements of IA to counter Pakistani armoured divisions (since heavy tanks are impossible to fight against Chinese due to terrain). DRDO bosses should be wise enough to consider simultaneous co-development of light tanks with countries like Poland and Slovakia for eastern brigade while consider inducting heavy tanks for our western department. Even Arjun MK-1 is superior to T-90 in every aspect despite the pathetic excuses IA throws to fill the pockets of their Russian and firangi masters (which can easily be seen through). The upgrading of T-72s is the most despicable decision for IA just to promote Russian presence and we can clearly see the amount of dalali that is involved by Army's top military circles.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Reincarnated Karna as FMBT?

Failed KARNA prototype may be the answer for India`s FMBT.

As we all Know Tank-EX was one of the best T-72 upgrades..
The Project Run very successfully until at last phase it was ditched..
The MAIN reason was price tag!, It caused by imported T-72 chassis..
It happen coz Russian didn't allow to modify existing chassis T-72 chassis..

Now Army is pushing for 50ton ditching 60ton Arjun..
Karna Turret is more heavy armored compare to any T-72 turret in the World..
Further this turret have sloped Armour configuration compare to Arjun...

The previous EX project is a good solution and time saving for FMBT project..
We may see the same tank with a Indigenous chassis with 1500hp in it..

With addition DRDO and IA demanded Hi-fi gadgets.. :happy_2:

 

[Tshering22]

^^ Knowing Army's Firangi-favouring Dalals, I think IA will choose some bloody Russian/European alternative and say the same sad excuses again of "oh not meeting requirements" or "Now we need a 30t tank and not 50 tons" or some stupid excuse to cover their commission taking. :angry_3:


Speaking of Karna, I think it would be better off to be modified as a wheeled Mobile Gun System similar to Stryker of US. That thing can be configured in 20 different versions depending on the mission and I think A M.G.S is the future of rapid moving, highly flexible tanks-cum-ICVs. The Polish cooperation that DRDO recently signed up should come in handy to modify KARNA and even the canceled BHIM into STRYKER-like Mobile Gun Systems.

The advantage of M.G.S are:

1- move faster,
2- is lighter,
3- carries 9-12 troops acting an ICV
4- can be modified heavily for multi-role capabilities like:
-- MedEVAC
-- Surveillance
-- 150 mm cannon tank
-- 30-50 mm Gatling gun carrying- IFV
-- Remote drone control station

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Speaking of Karna, I think it would be better off to be modified as a wheeled Mobile Gun System similar to Stryker of US. That thing can be configured in 20 different versions depending on the mission and I think A M.G.S is the future of rapid moving, highly flexible tanks-cum-ICVs. The Polish cooperation that DRDO recently signed up should come in handy to modify KARNA and even the canceled BHIM into STRYKER-like Mobile Gun Systems.

The advantage of M.G.S are:

1- move faster,
2- is lighter,
3- carries 9-12 troops acting an ICV
4- can be modified heavily for multi-role capabilities like:
-- MedEVAC
-- Surveillance
-- 150 mm cannon tank
-- 30-50 mm Gatling gun carrying- IFV
-- Remote drone control station

Both Vehicles are different and their purpose is different..
But again an MBT can roll against insurgents but a 8x8 ICV/MGS cannot go head on with MBT..

Is its true that modern MBTS in the world considering now lighter tanks..
But how much lighter?

Certainly Not 60-70tons anymore..
&
Certainly Not battle mule ( Humvee )
But some where 50-55ton MBT..

We cannot use stryker head-on with any MBTs, Not even PT-76..
Striker is a good vehicle only against insurgents and light vehicles, Thats the reason its called Mobile Gun System..


BHIM is a Self propelled arty!
Arty Gun are differnt than Tank and assault Guns..

I recommended u should see this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav-mgs.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-propelled_artillery

 

[Anshu Attri]

Rubber Tracks Make Military Vehicles More Efficient, Durable, and Quieter

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/12/military-vehicles-apc-tanks-rubber-tracks-mpg.php

Looks More Like a Toy, but Performs Better
Recently, we wrote about the fuel consumption of some common US military vehicles (f.ex., the M2A3 and M3A3 Bradley Fighting Vehicles get about 1.7 MPG and the M1A1 Abrams Battle Tank gets about 0.6 MPG). This matters because we're not talking about small amounts of fuel: according to NPR, all the tanks, planes and ships of the U.S. military burn about 340,000 barrels of oil per day, making it the "single-largest purchaser and consumer of oil in the world."

One way to make tracked vehicles both more eco-friendly and safer and more comfortable for the people inside them is to use new high-tech rubber tracks. Read on for more details.

The Economist has an interesting piece about this in their technology quarterly edition. But let's start from the beginning...

The Washing-Machine, and Not a Delicate Cycle
Most tracked military vehicles use tracks with metal plates. This has several inconvenients, including severe vibrations (some soldiers call Armored Personnel Carriers (APC) washing-machines) that are bad both for the health of the people inside and for the mechanical health of vehicles, leading to more frequent breakdowns.

These metal tracks are also bad for roads, causing a lot of damage that must be repaired, and they wear out fast. "On average, the segments of a steel track must be repaired or replaced after just 400 km (250 miles) of use." The new rubber tracks last more than 3,000 km (1865 miles) before they need to be replaced.

Fuel economy is also affected: Metal tracks are heavy, and you also need to carry replacement tracks, which means you need a beefier suspension. All things considered, rubber tracks could improve fuel economy by about 1/3, according to TACOM, the American army's Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command. That's significant when you think about what kind of MPG Tanks and APCs get.

Rubber tracks also provide more traction, in part because, being lighter, they can be made wider than steel tracks. That means vehicles fitted with them do not get stuck in the mud. The vehicles accelerate faster, too, and drivers say they handle almost as well on paved roads as wheeled vehicles do. On top of this, they are quieter.
The only problem is that so far these rubber tracks (many of which are made in Quebec, Canada, by Soucy International) are not yet strong enough for 50-tonne battle tanks. But they are getting there, and already some 30-tonne vehicles are being tested with them.

 

[Armand2REP]

Most IFVs already come with a set of rubber road tracks. Steel tracks are better for rough surfaces which is why both pairs are carried.

 

[Tshering22]

Both Vehicles are different and their purpose is different..
But again an MBT can roll against insurgents but a 8x8 ICV/MGS cannot go head on with MBT..

Is its true that modern MBTS in the world considering now lighter tanks..
But how much lighter?

Certainly Not 60-70tons anymore..
&
Certainly Not battle mule ( Humvee )
But some where 50-55ton MBT..

We cannot use stryker head-on with any MBTs, Not even PT-76..
Striker is a good vehicle only against insurgents and light vehicles, Thats the reason its called Mobile Gun System..


BHIM is a Self propelled arty!
Arty Gun are differnt than Tank and assault Guns..

I recommended u should see this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav-mgs.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-propelled_artillery

Kunal, I know what I am saying bro. The thing what I am trying to convey is that how much heavy armour are we going to need against one Pakistan if we can simply upgrade Arjun MK1 to MK2 level and induct en masse rather than expensive makeovers for old Soviet tanks to keep foreign coffers filled for some commission eating babus? We should develop enough heavy battle tanks to make them in large volumes whenever we want for Pakistan but in the future it is VERY VERY UNLIKELY that we will be facing anything close to that level of armoured opposition from a country that is about to simply collapse and living on borrowed time.

The emphasis should be of threat perceptions in the coming 20 years which is likely from eastern sector and Islamist terrorism; both of which come from mountainous regions of our country where heavy tracked tanks are cannon fodder. Instead of buying Strykers and continuing the same legacy of filling foreign coffers, DRDO should focus on understanding the working of Mobile Gun System with countries like Poland. Study and start developing ones' own. If we start now, maybe in 8 years we can have our own M.G.S with multi-mission capabilities in high mountains.

Pakistan will likely continue to use proxies as it cannot afford military in a full blown war any longer. All that buying is just to keep the nation content and to keep them thinking that they have a future. You and I both know that.

Bhim is a SOA I know. But I have been reading a lot about the wheeled platforms nowadays with new and more advanced rubber materials that have a lot of advantages as to the tracked ones. This is where M.G.S has to be thought on; a much larger and longer term security threat perception which Pakistan is not.

Heck! IMO even Arjun MK1 is an overkill for Pakistani tank divisions. Al Khalid is slightly better than T-72 designs with an ERA type armour while the Arjuns have Kanchan armour which has provenly withstood a point blank blast from a T72 and still worked good. Army is simply throwing flimsy excuses to casual Indian readers to shut their mouths but cannot fool more deeper and aware citizens of WHY it wants to buy foreign maal.

M.G.S. is the future. MBTs are only present threat. PLA will never be using MBTs against us in future.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal, I know what I am saying bro. The thing what I am trying to convey is that how much heavy armour are we going to need against one Pakistan if we can simply upgrade Arjun MK1 to MK2

ArjunMK1 is lot better in terms of RAW protection from today's AT projectiles..
Arjun mk2 will be not that armored as MK-1 but will have heavy ERA and ERA tiles with APS..

Army wants 50ton, Coz their argue that bridges can hold them..
Anyways even they are true ( I am no saying ) 50ton still a good answer to todays problem, most foregin company are now concentration on addon upgrades to existing tanks this will keep the weight at balance 50-55ton.. ..

We should develop enough heavy battle tanks to make them in large volumes whenever we want for Pakistan but in the future it is VERY VERY UNLIKELY that we will be facing anything close to that level of armored opposition from a country that is about to simply collapse and living on borrowed time.

It doesn't matter we must be ready for any thread from any aggression from thar, Punjab and northern Gujarat..

Now India have some 250 some Arjun MK-1 orders..
T-90 is a replacement for T-72..

DRDO should focus on understanding the working of Mobile Gun System with countries like Poland. Study and start developing ones' own. If we start now, maybe in 8 years we can have our own M.G.S with multi-mission capabilities in high mountains.

I understand and agree with you..
We need Light tanks and we will have them in near future, IA wanted 120mm cannon not 105 gun..
PLA Already use 100mm assault gun call PL2..

Pakistan will likely continue to use proxies as it cannot afford military in a full blown war any longer. All that buying is just to keep the nation content and to keep them thinking that they have a future. You and I both know that.

I am afraid that's no longer the situation..
Now we will see PA & PLA joint attacks almost on every possible fronts..

Bhim is a SPG I know. But I have been reading a lot about the wheeled platforms nowadays with new and more advanced rubber materials that have a lot of advantages as to the tracked ones. This is where M.G.S has to be thought on; a much larger and longer term security threat perception which Pakistan is not.

Tracked ones are better in harsh conditions like MUD, SAND, Canals and trench crossings..

Wheel cannot accomplish all these obstacles..
Wheel is for speed and its light and easy to maintain..

M.G.S. is the future. MBTs are only present threat. PLA will never be using MBTs against us in future.

MGS existed before as Assault guns in WW2!
Dont fall for US market terminology..

MGS are not a answer to MBTS..
AS i have explained before..

 

[p2prada]

it is intriguing when people keep questioning Arjun's indigenous content when the most critical systems like gun, suspension, armour, projectiles, design wrt crew comfort, heat dissipation and "room" for future upgrades have been taken care of - a big positive compared to our existing MBT's which by the way is wholly imported!!

Obsolete gun, old armour, weak projectiles etc are not critical systems. Without an engine, tracks and electronics there is no tank. We aren't building a WW2 force that relied only on Gun and Armour.

Crew comfort, Heat dissipation and room for upgrades isn't even an argument. It is a necessary requirement in all future tanks.

I would prefer a wholly imported tank rather than a half imported - half home made tank any time. The army does too.

unless there is an orderbook good enough to sustain development and localising the content to a higher level - how is it possible and feasible??

Order book is not required, only Money. DRDO has all the money required to finish their little project.

and this inspite of Arjun validating itself in trials which too were done against foot dragging by the user. sustained involvement and liasion between the user, designers, production agencies - both public and private enterprises is the only way. iterative development and induction is only way products mature everywhere and sustained orders parallely create industries which not only creates the infrastructure but also nurtures pool of designers who can continue R&D with timely infusion of capital for the same. has this been the case with Arjun??

Army wanted Arjun in 2000, not in 2010.

right thro' this Arjun saga, how even efforts to rope in private enterprises for manufature of certain systems and material ( which could have worked wonders ) went no where because of lack of orders. private companies who create assemblies for the said can't wait for ages for the orders because they have to pay their staff. with no buys, how can one expect them to sustain?? either GOI will have to subsidise or create them at DPSUs - again a stick people beat with!!

The profitability of DRDO and private industries isn't in the Army's interests. Nobody wins wars based on how well the defence industry is performing.

You are trying to protect economics over military value.

after proving itself, Arjun is questioned wrt weight ( better protected),

ROFL.

mobility ( Arjun has better power/weight ratio),

underrated.

fire power ( fires unitary rounds with high accuracy, both static and on the move ),

A joke. Compare to Challenge and then talk.

transport ( infra available )

Unless DRDO is giving transports free of cost with every tank. So, fail.

.. which is simply intriguing. questions regarding maturity of the tank and subsystems and electronics are even more intriguing as first the user does not show any interest, does not involve himself in its development, keeps changing requirements and drags his foot over for the trials to prove the system and when proved does not order decent quantity!!

Nothing has been tested using Indian made equipment. DRDO promised near 100% indigenization before 2000. Never happened.

how can a system mature unless it is inducted in numbers and an iterative development to mature it along the way?? how does the private enterprises sustain their assemblies without orders?? will the user subsidise them?? with paltry numbers is it economically sustainable?? how long we keep importing when better systems are locally available??

Dont protect DRDO. Never protect the seller.

ummm..here is one speech made by Lt Gen Niranjan S Malik, PVSM in 2005 who tells the story in a poignant way which still is valid.

DRDO failed to produce.

Don't try and protect DRDO let alone MRF too. They are companies made on money.

The Chinese defence industry has gone so far ahead of us. But we continue to rely on transfer of technology.

Not to mention their economy is bigger than every other economy in the world save the US. They are 5 times our economy.

i guess TRACTOR ENGINEERS ( part of L&T ) at -

- manufacture them.

A decade after requirement date.

here is the link for BEL IGMS which is a fire control system (FCS) which will be on the Arjun.

"Will" is the word here. "When" is what I ask?
This should have been ready in 2000. 15 years after GSQR changed. That's enough time for tank development.

Arjun is a failed tank development. Just finishing the tank 10 or 15 years after the army required it does not make the tank awesome. The Army wanted the tank to finish all tests by 2000 not by 2010.

Now DRDO has to stop acting the goat and make the Army their new FMBT.

USA's FCS Programme which was to switch to lighter armoured carriers made sense to them ( to be fully converted by 2030 ) since they deploy globally which is not the case for us.

NO. FCS requirement was different from MBT requirements. Both were made to function together in the battlefield.

however FCS stands cancelled -

FCS Project was cancelled in May 2009. Project was renamed to BCT Ground Combat Vehicles Program in June 2009.

So giving me articles on cancelled projects don't make a difference when the project has a new name. The only difference is the Army has taken direct control of the program. Civilians still believe FCS is cancelled because they only added the word "modernization" to BCT. Democracy at play. Wake up.

Funny how every body is criticizing the Army's decision on Arjun while the IAF's decision on the LCA is not questioned.
Army -
Arjun is a failure. We will induct only 124. Build a MK2 version by 2016 and we will think about it. But give us the FMBT.

Civilians = Ah! Army is corrupt. Generals are a fail. Rant, rant, wail, wail etc etc.

Air Force-
LCA is a good project. We don't want it as of now since engine is underpowered and some things need to be tweaked and blah blah blah. We will induct a squadron or 2 of Mk1. But we are willing to wait for the Mk2 version by 2016 and then decide. But we want the AMCA.

Civilians = Oh! look how good they are. They "may" buy Mk2. Whooppee! Air force seems better than the army at indigenous projects.

ROTFLMAO!

Funny how the media reacts to direct statements of the Army rejecting Arjun Mk1 negatively while the indirect statements of the Air Force rejecting LCA Mk1 are taken with great positivity. Live in your delusion. Cheers.

End result. DRDO still sucks.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

End result. DRDO still sucks.:emot112:

 

[p2prada]

Wonder why he hates the game?

Wake up to REALITY. :emot180:

 

[gogbot]

@p2prada

You went on a nice rant.
Majority of your post is riddled with one liner's , the other Half has gapping misinformation.

Arjun Flunked at Trials ?

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/AdvSearch.aspx

Army Decides to Take 124 More MBT Arjun(5/17/2010 12:55:48 PM)

The Army has decided to place fresh order for an additional home-built 124 Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun. This is over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. The development follows the success of the indigenous MBT Arjun in the recent gruelling desert trials.

The project for the design and development of the MBT Arjun was approved by the Government in 1974 with an aim to give the required indigenous cutting edge to our Mechanised Forces. After many years of trial and tribulation it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately hitting targets – both stationary and moving, with pin pointed accuracy. Its superior fire-power is based on accurate and quick target acquisition capability during day and night in all types of weather and shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements.

Sitanshu Kar / RAJ
Release Id :61870

Obviously this was preceded by this

MBT Arjun(4/26/2010 7:54:05 PM)

The decision on the further order of the MBT Arjun tanks would be based on the results of recently concluded comparative trials of MBT Arjun and T-90 tanks.

Certain components of MBT Arjun are imported based on the indigenous design of their configurations. The other systems are indigenously designed and produced.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri S Semmalai and Shri GS Basavaraj in Lok Sabha today.

PK / RAJ
Release Id :60943

And then of Course Followed by this

Arjun Tanks(8/9/2010 6:16:38 PM)

The Indian Army is placing an order for 124 Arjun Tanks Mark – II in addition to the equal number of Mark – I ordered earlier. Tank T-90, Tank T-72, and Arjun tanks are all main battle tanks of the Indian Army.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri BP Tarai and Shri Prabodh Panda in Lok Sabha today.

HH / RAJ
Release Id :64467

There are Valid logistics reasons against the Arjun , The round needed for the Arjun still has not been produced in sufficient quantity for spares.
Production line is slow. Most likely doubt still exist of the Manufacturing quality.
But all those improve or are solved by increasing the number of orders.
I am sure there are valid weigh issues.

But nothing i have seen so far tells me a reason as to why the Arjun tank needs to be limited to small scale orders while thousands of T-72 get upgrades for their Antiquated designs.

Modernisation of T-72 Tanks Vis-a-Vis Arjun Tanks(8/25/2010 4:35:11 PM)

The Army follows a philosophy of having a mix of legacy equipment, equipment with matured technology and state-of-the-art equipment. T-72 tank is not an antiquated equipment. Therefore, the Army intends to retrofit/upgrade these tanks to enhance their mission reliability and life expectancy.

Orders for 124 Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun have already been placed on the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi. As on date, 85 MBT Arjun Tanks have been issued to the Army. Keeping in view the production capacity for MBT Arjun Tanks and strategic considerations, the Government is also exercising the option for modernising T-72 tanks instead of total replacement of these tanks on completion of their life span.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in written reply to Shri MV Mysura Reddy in Rajya Sabha today.

DM / RAJ
Release Id :65237

Lets be real ,
The Army only accepted the first 124 Arjun Tanks when , they met the requirements it laid out for induction.

Then they only accepted further orders based on trial results.
Then they order 124 Arjuns

then Mod Sanctions Arjun MK-II
Army then Places order for 124 Arjun MKII

This is our so called failed Tank development , These Tanks The army keeps ordering.
Despite trying so hard not to for the last 10 years. I will admit it had problems for 8 of those 10.
If it's so much fail tank , why they want to put more soldiers in these deathbox's.
And why these Soldiers not coming out demanding better tanks. One fellow goes to Media about poor quality of Arjun it will become a headline.
Why no one has done.
With 84 tanks already in service , there have been no negative opinions regarding the tank

Sure the Army much better option in the Vintage T-72 and the Ultra-Modern State of the Art T-90.

If Arjun is so fail why has our un-corruptible Armed forces placed orders for 376 Arjun tanks as of Dec 21st 2010.
In all likelihood there will be at least another 124 tanks. Bringing the total orders to 500.
While at the same time we will be inducting 1000 T-90's by 2020.

Funny how every body is criticizing the Army's decision on Arjun while the IAF's decision on the LCA is not questioned.
Army -
Arjun is a failure. We will induct only 124. Build a MK2 version by 2016 and we will think about it. But give us the FMBT.

Civilians = Ah! Army is corrupt. Generals are a fail. Rant, rant, wail, wail etc etc.

Air Force-
LCA is a good project. We don't want it as of now since engine is underpowered and some things need to be tweaked and blah blah blah. We will induct a squadron or 2 of Mk1. But we are willing to wait for the Mk2 version by 2016 and then decide. But we want the AMCA.

Civilians = Oh! look how good they are. They "may" buy Mk2. Whooppee! Air force seems better than the army at indigenous projects.

ROTFLMAO!

Funny how the media reacts to direct statements of the Army rejecting Arjun Mk1 negatively while the indirect statements of the Air Force rejecting LCA Mk1 are taken with great positivity. Live in your delusion. Cheers.

Your not telling the whole truth there.

For one thing the Army has taken every move possible for stooping further induction of Arjun tanks right up to the trials with the t-90.
Limiting orders to 124 , why ?
No interest in upgrades.

While at the same time inducting thousands of foreign tanks.
And Upgrading even older foreign tanks in the thousands.
None of these are much better , if better at all than the Arjun.

Air Force has made its intentions on the LCA clear from the get go , there were no limiting of orders to said numbers.
They were always looking for upgrades , Even now they are trying to getting LCA-MKII as fast as possible,
This is very evident if you look at their opposition to the Kaveri-Schema tie up , which they saw as possibly delaying MKII.
The Fact that they wanted an Of the shelf engine to ensure quick delivery is evidence of their intent for the MKII.

OF Course the Air forces is getting the MMRCA aircarft as well , a large number of them, But all of them are clearly so much superior to the LCA its hardly comparable.
There is no argument in favor of the LCA against the MMRCA, the air force has the opportunity to purchase and use one of the most sophisticated machines on the planet , while at the same time giving India Political , economic and technological benefit. All this while they have been Talking working towards the LCA and Planning the AMCA .
The Air force has put it clearly the LCA is better than the Mig-21, they will induct and replace.

What the hell does India get from T-90's , a tank that is barely better than the Arjun if not worse.
While at the same time we have Hundreds of T72's that could be replaced , but are instead upgraded.
The T-72 is hardly even Comparable to the Arjun, yet the Order was capped at 124 , while they though of ways to upgrade the antiquated junk for few more decades.
While they sat on the Arjun which is just better.

Up until the trials this year , the Arjun has been criticized , it's future thrown into question by countless people Which includes the Army. Stuck with a Bleak order book limited to just 124.

After the Trials , whatever happened , believe whatever side you want.
All i know is that order book has Doubled.
All criticism seems to have disappeared.
An Arjun Mk-II was sanction , and received firm orders for 124 tanks soon after.

Anyone can intuitively tell what has changed.

 

[p2prada]

As of 25 Aug, 2010 04:35:11 PM, IA is the proud owner of only 85 Arjun Tanks after 26 years of development and trials.

ROFL. That should answer all your questions.

LCA and Arjun have faced similar problems. Both forces have rejected Mk1. Both forces have asked for a MK2. Both forces have not committed to the project completely. Both forces have mooted for a new gen platform MCA and FMBT.

Wake up to reality. It is staring you in the face and you fail to see it.

After the Trials , whatever happened , believe whatever side you want.

Never questioned the success of the trials. Questioned only the time line. Why claim for great taste when its past the expiry date.

All i know is that order book has Doubled.

And you really think the army will actually use it for major combat operations. It is a token gesture. Arjun will be relegated to duties within our borders.

All criticism seems to have disappeared.

All criticisms have been relegated to board rooms and meetings. Nothing more is being releases to mainstream media. IA has taken its cue from the IAF.
Praise it to an extent that the public is happy and still not induct it.

An Arjun Mk-II was sanction , and received firm orders for 124 tanks soon after.

It is a test bed for modern technologies like the APS and certifying technologies like engine, transmission, electronics and tracks.

FMBT is the real deal.

Majority of your post is riddled with one liner's , the other Half has gapping misinformation.

The rest of your post and the gaping misinformation has been discussed to the point of death with ppgj and Kunal. I am not getting into the muck again. If you want check the old Arjun thread that you can reach through my personal posts through my profile.

Arjun is well past its expiry date for development time. Normally any other armed forces would have asked to cancel the project and start afresh a new tank development in early 2000 itself. DRDO did not relent and the army went ahead with T-90.

Don't compare with the Israeli Merkava because it is like comparing Apples and the Milky Way. The Merkava was indeed ahead of its time and had a lot of promise which came from technology that was 35 years ahead of what today's Arjun is. If the year was 1980 I would have whole heartedly supported Arjun. Heck even 2000 was fine. But not 2010+. The battlefield has become way too advanced for a super sized Brontosaurus.

 

[Armand2REP]

Arjun is well past its expiry date for development time. Normally any other armed forces would have asked to cancel the project and start afresh a new tank development in early 2000 itself.

You mean like Russia did with the T-95? Now they are left back to the drawing board with a concept tank they can't hope to build.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some cool Stuff abt Leo2 Upgrade..

leo2 up-gradation by turks, Same as Leo up-gradation by Rheinmetall Defence

 

[p2prada]

You mean like Russia did with the T-95? Now they are left back to the drawing board with a concept tank they can't hope to build.

Nobody knows the reasons for cancellation. But we all know that development was indeed delayed and may perhaps overshoot schedule by a long margin. So, that would be one of the reasons for cancellation. Another would be financial of course.

As for your second statement, it is only an assumption.

Also you cannot bring Russia, Germany or America into an India discussion. Heck we don't even have a working tank engine and have to make do with whatever some body throws away. So, can't compare.