Indian Woman for Combat Duties

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ezsasa

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Where are you getting your data from ?

PS- Women are already in combat roles in India. - airforce + ships + CAPFs + SFF

Women have served in combat with special forces units in America , Israel and as intelligence officers across a host of countries.

There is no political correctness. If a woman can do a job better than a man she should be hired.

Don't forget that the subcontinent has along history if women on the battlefield going back 3000 years.

So political non-correctness if any is from a Victorian Western filter.
When did women serve in special forces in America and Israel, more precisely combat duties? Any news articles?

First woman to pass American green beret training has happened last month, many have failed before her.
 

Bleh

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When did women serve in special forces in America and Israel, more precisely combat duties? Any news articles?

First woman to pass American green beret training has happened last month, many have failed before her.
That is understandable, given the standards will be much much harder for women to meet.

Guns & grenades do mean that women can kill men just as easily, but the fact that men are larger, stronger, (with combat load) faster than women still matters. Women must never be assigned to roles where those are deciding factor, like infantry or covert ops, as that'll lower the standards & create issues.

However, Kurdish women fought against ISIS, quite successfully.
Against a proper army, female snipers of Soviet Union killed Wehrmacht soldiers like bugs.

In India roles can be found for women with Artillery, Air Defence, Attack Helicopters, Air Force's CAS, NSG etc. maybe COIN too. Navy...@binayak95 once spoke against it, i can't remember the reason. But isn't much of it in modern day comprises of just looking at a screen & pressing a button?
 
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rkhanna

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When did women serve in special forces in America and Israel, more precisely combat duties? Any news articles?

First woman to pass American green beret training has happened last month, many have failed before her.
Woman have and still serve in SFOD-D and ISA and 160th SOAR - all JSOC units.

For SOCOM woman have now officially cleared Ranger and SF selection as well as 1 though MARSOC -

In SOCOM women serve in a unit called CSG -cultural support group

In Israel have served with the following units
  • YAMAG
  • Unit 669
  • YABAN
  • Oket'z
The Norwegians have an all female Jaeger unit

There is an all female tactical platoon within Afghan SF

British SFHQ now (this year) allows women to join the 22nd

 

ezsasa

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Woman have and still serve in SFOD-D and ISA and 160th SOAR - all JSOC units.

For SOCOM woman have now officially cleared Ranger and SF selection as well as 1 though MARSOC -

In SOCOM women serve in a unit called CSG -cultural support group

In Israel have served with the following units
  • YAMAG
  • Unit 669
  • YABAN
  • Oket'z
The Norwegians have an all female Jaeger unit

There is an all female tactical platoon within Afghan SF

British SFHQ now (this year) allows women to join the 22nd

My question still remains the same. I was asking for any news article/literature on effectiveness of female SF in active combat on front lines on the ground along with rest of men in a company or platoon.

If there was such a case both Europeans and Americans would have made a big deal out of it.

I am not finding any....

As far as Kurds and other rebel militia, it more of necessity than about gender equality. These fellows don’t need to give any explanation to their public if female combatants get killed unlike democracies.
 

rkhanna

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My question still remains the same. I was asking for any news article/literature on effectiveness of female SF in active combat on front lines on the ground along with rest of men in a company or platoon.

If there was such a case both Europeans and Americans would have made a big deal out of it.

I am not finding any....

As far as Kurds and other rebel militia, it more of necessity than about gender equality. These fellows don’t need to give any explanation to their public if female combatants get killed unlike democracies.
Actually there are quiet a few. Sofrep has a couple of articles .

Wesley collage has a detailed analysis of 5 years worth of AAR of female units in Afghanistan.

Other sources where you will findfa smattering of mentions and annecdotes he following books
Relentless Strike
Masters of chaos
Hunt for Bin Laden
My share of the task

Will send you links tomorrow.

MSM doesn't cover them becausr of their mission profiles dont get made public - also information of this reaching Taliban etc reduces opsec. Same as prince Harry deployment to astan was covered only after his tour was over
 

ezsasa

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Actually there are quiet a few. Sofrep has a couple of articles .

Wesley collage has a detailed analysis of 5 years worth of AAR of female units in Afghanistan.

Other sources where you will findfa smattering of mentions and annecdotes he following books
Relentless Strike
Masters of chaos
Hunt for Bin Laden
My share of the task

Will send you links tomorrow.

MSM doesn't cover them becausr of their mission profiles dont get made public - also information of this reaching Taliban etc reduces opsec. Same as prince Harry deployment to astan was covered only after his tour was over
Thanks.. looking forward.................
 

ezsasa

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I believe full utilisation of women on front line combat can emerge out of two scenarios:

1) universal acceptance of rules of engagement that men will face men and women will face women on the battler field.

2) bigger, greater and longer world war in the future that leads to shortfall in combatants among men.

Both my points are not realistic....
 

rkhanna

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I believe full utilisation of women on front line combat can emerge out of two scenarios:

1) universal acceptance of rules of engagement that men will face men and women will face women on the battler field.

2) bigger, greater and longer world war in the future that leads to shortfall in combatants among men.

Both my points are not realistic....
Agreed but there are enough niche areas woman can operate effectively. I have read of at least one Delta support sniper being female.

Combat pilots - inherent biology makes woman more suited to taking higher G forces.

Armoured forces , Intel , logistics , cyber warfare. -

the "Frontline" is being redefined. Americans have found their Cultural Support teams Invaluable while doing a recce+Intel gathering of villages in Iraq and asthan where men will refuse to speak and woman and children will be hidden indoors - but the presense of female troops changes that dynamic reaping huge benefits.

Also don't forget a large number of Allied Intel wins in the GWOT had women leading the Intel team whether Via the CIA or MI tasks force. Can't remember where I read this but almost 18-20% of American Task Forces in Afghanistan we're with women leading the Intel and Planning of the task forces .
 

ezsasa

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Agreed but there are enough niche areas woman can operate effectively. I have read of at least one Delta support sniper being female.

Combat pilots - inherent biology makes woman more suited to taking higher G forces.

Armoured forces , Intel , logistics , cyber warfare. -

the "Frontline" is being redefined. Americans have found their Cultural Support teams Invaluable while doing a recce+Intel gathering of villages in Iraq and asthan where men will refuse to speak and woman and children will be hidden indoors - but the presense of female troops changes that dynamic reaping huge benefits.

Also don't forget a large number of Allied Intel wins in the GWOT had women leading the Intel team whether Via the CIA or MI tasks force. Can't remember where I read this but almost 18-20% of American Task Forces in Afghanistan we're with women leading the Intel and Planning of the task forces .
True, but is also true that women have been involved in these trades you have mentioned since world war 2 on both side of the Atlantic including USSR.

The fundamental argument that feminists are pushing for is that women are on par with men in all aspects at all levels, because as per feminists biological differences do not exist between men and women.

The counter argument that others are making is that there are biological differences between men and women, not all jobs done by men during combat can be taken up women during combat under similar battle conditions.

Just incase you haven’t seen what modern feminists think and say first hand.. here you go...

 

vampyrbladez

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Where are you getting your data from ?

PS- Women are already in combat roles in India. - airforce + ships + CAPFs + SFF

Women have served in combat with special forces units in America , Israel and as intelligence officers across a host of countries.

There is no political correctness. If a woman can do a job better than a man she should be hired.

Don't forget that the subcontinent has along history if women on the battlefield going back 3000 years.

So political non-correctness if any is from a Victorian Western filter.
Women in India serve only in paramilitary forces as support roles and not for direct combat aka actively engaging enemy combatants.

Women are currently only allowed in IAF as air patrol AD fighter units (non war) for any combat role. All other forces have massive logistical difficulties to accommodate and deploy women in front line role.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/280017557/Marine-Corps-gender-integration-research-executive-summary





 

Suryavanshi

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I think women deserve their own place in Defence duties but at places where they serve any purpose or offer a better performance then men.
Say for example in Kashmir Female CRPF officers should be deployed in case of House to House searches or when tackling women jihadi supporters.
BSF women can be selected on the same parameters as regular BSF men and put in non engaging borders like Bangladesh or Myanmar.
Snipers roles can be assigned to women as historically proven, but she must go through the same endurance test as a man
Of course putting women in infantry seems like a maniac decsion meant only for appeasement.

Then again if u are giving concesions in army u should give me a chance as well, hell I filled all the parameters except for my flat foot.
 

Haldiram

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I think women deserve their own place in Defence duties but at places where they serve any purpose or offer a better performance then men.
Say for example in Kashmir Female CRPF officers should be deployed in case of House to House searches or when tackling women jihadi supporters.
BSF women can be selected on the same parameters as regular BSF men and put in non engaging borders like Bangladesh or Myanmar.
Snipers roles can be assigned to women as historically proven, but she must go through the same endurance test as a man
Of course putting women in infantry seems like a maniac decsion meant only for appeasement.

Then again if u are giving concesions in army u should give me a chance as well, hell I filled all the parameters except for my flat foot.
What's your plan going forward? You could still be connected to defense if you apply for officer level posts at IB, DRDO, OFB, BEL or do you have something else in mind?
 

rkhanna

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I think women deserve their own place in Defence duties but at places where they serve any purpose or offer a better performance then men.
Say for example in Kashmir Female CRPF officers should be deployed in case of House to House searches or when tackling women jihadi supporters.
BSF women can be selected on the same parameters as regular BSF men and put in non engaging borders like Bangladesh or Myanmar.
Snipers roles can be assigned to women as historically proven, but she must go through the same endurance test as a man
Of course putting women in infantry seems like a maniac decsion meant only for appeasement.

Then again if u are giving concesions in army u should give me a chance as well, hell I filled all the parameters except for my flat foot.
in the CAPF - women (jawans and officers )
are already posted on borders and in many cases leading COIN operations .

@ezsasa sorry bro. - elections thrown my day for a toss . Will get back to you on what you asked as soon as possible
 

vampyrbladez

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in the CAPF - women (jawans and officers )
are already posted on borders and in many cases leading COIN operations .

@ezsasa sorry bro. - elections thrown my day for a toss . Will get back to you on what you asked as soon as possible
Bullshit on leading COIN operations. Please don't post feminazi misinformation here.
 

rkhanna

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Bullshit on leading COIN operations. Please don't post feminazi misinformation here.
Sorry . Suggest please Google Usha Kiran of the CRPF. Or sanjujta parashar IPS cadre fighting bodo militants or Archana Ramasundram who headed the SSB guarding the Nepal/China border or Shakti Devi who headed the all woman unit to Liberia .

There is even all female CAPF unit in the NE



Lastly I can guarantee you don't know what the meaning of a feminist is .

NON of what I have posted has to do with feminisim. If your panties get in a bunch that's on you.
 

vampyrbladez

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Sorry . Suggest please Google Usha Kiran of the CRPF. Or sanjujta parashar IPS cadre fighting bodo militants or Archana Ramasundram who headed the SSB guarding the Nepal/China border or Shakti Devi who headed the all woman unit to Liberia .

There is even all female CAPF unit in the NE



Lastly I can guarantee you don't know what the meaning of a feminist is .

NON of what I have posted has to do with feminisim. If your panties get in a bunch that's on you.
All the aforementioned names are in support roles only. Just interrogation and intelligence than actively hunting enemies for combat. Combat = Exchanging fire with OpFor not just wearing camo to look 'military'.

P.S: Feminism = Death for family unit + Nationalist Sentiments
 

ezsasa

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Sorry . Suggest please Google Usha Kiran of the CRPF. Or sanjujta parashar IPS cadre fighting bodo militants or Archana Ramasundram who headed the SSB guarding the Nepal/China border or Shakti Devi who headed the all woman unit to Liberia .

There is even all female CAPF unit in the NE



Lastly I can guarantee you don't know what the meaning of a feminist is .

NON of what I have posted has to do with feminisim. If your panties get in a bunch that's on you.
How many gallantry awards(combat) were given to Indian women till now?

If they are in front lines, surely there will be casualties.

If women are fighting on par with men, casualty rates would also be proportional isn’t it?
 

rkhanna

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How many gallantry awards(combat) were given to Indian women till now?

If they are in front lines, surely there will be casualties.

If women are fighting on par with men, casualty rates would also be proportional isn’t it?
Women units in COIN with ( CAPF/IPS) ithless than 5 years old afaik operationally. No info on casualties. I can troll through the CAPF websites for names on the weekend.

Do not know about medals but there are enough citations etc that can be googled.

I don't know how to define "on par' when men . Most likely not. But they are on the front lines that much is a fact. They have a number of kills and arrests and have been part of successful operations . That is also a fact

Just as a reminder:

In WWI and WWII african Americans were not fit for combat duty as they being "sub human" were deemed unfit for combat on equal to a white male. History now says otherwise.

The point is that any data that you can try to gleam will have the following limitations to draw any form of regression / conclusion

1. Inherent observer vias
2. Not enough data over not enough variables.

Alot of things will ensure the above never happen - including and not the least. infrastructure that would.make it cost prohibant to let women in the armed forces enmass.

I am against women in the military for one sole reason. The very basis of a successful unit is unit cohesion. Mixed member units will break cohesion and draw down on combat efficiency.

The only solution is women only units. - Manning snf equiping women only units won't work

1. Not enough manpower ( female volunteers)
2. We don't have the budget to raise such a unit - they will be expensive ( though we do have a female only unit in the SFF)

I unfortunately don't usually buy the argument on women not being "strong" enough . If they pass the same physical as man they good enough in my book.
 

vampyrbladez

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Women units in COIN with ( CAPF/IPS) ithless than 5 years old afaik operationally. No info on casualties. I can troll through the CAPF websites for names on the weekend.

Do not know about medals but there are enough citations etc that can be googled.

I don't know how to define "on par' when men . Most likely not. But they are on the front lines that much is a fact. They have a number of kills and arrests and have been part of successful operations . That is also a fact

Just as a reminder:

In WWI and WWII african Americans were not fit for combat duty as they being "sub human" were deemed unfit for combat on equal to a white male. History now says otherwise.

The point is that any data that you can try to gleam will have the following limitations to draw any form of regression / conclusion

1. Inherent observer vias
2. Not enough data over not enough variables.

Alot of things will ensure the above never happen - including and not the least. infrastructure that would.make it cost prohibant to let women in the armed forces enmass.

I am against women in the military for one sole reason. The very basis of a successful unit is unit cohesion. Mixed member units will break cohesion and draw down on combat efficiency.

The only solution is women only units. - Manning snf equiping women only units won't work

1. Not enough manpower ( female volunteers)
2. We don't have the budget to raise such a unit - they will be expensive ( though we do have a female only unit in the SFF)

I unfortunately don't usually buy the argument on women not being "strong" enough . If they pass the same physical as man they good enough in my book.
^ This guy above is delusional as per military strategy, tactics and deployment.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docum...gration-plan-summary.html#document/p3/a239541

upload_2018-12-11_21-31-54.png
 

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rkhanna

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All the aforementioned names are in support roles only. Just interrogation and intelligence than actively hunting enemies for combat. Combat = Exchanging fire with OpFor not just wearing camo to look 'military'.

P.S: Feminism = Death for family unit + Nationalist Sentiments
This took me a minute to Google.

Sanjukta Parashar’s name is enough to fill terror in the hearts of Bodo militants of Assam. She has taken down 6 militants and arrested over 64 militants in just 15 months

https://www.thebetterindia.com/2572...er-who-is-a-nightmare-for-militants-in-assam/


PS

This is ofcourse my opinion.but Nationalism is for uneducated, unemployed morons. Patriotism however can define the future of a nation.

The greatest "Feminist" and Patriot i know off is my great grand mother. Her name was Subadra Kumari Chauhan - She was the first woman to go to Jail under the British Raj and was the First Female elected official (MP MLA). She was one of the founding members of the Quit India Movement

Oh btw she wrote one of the most baddass Feminist Poems in India - Jhasi ki Rani

- This "anti-national" now has a Coast Guard Ship named after her.

As for family unit - She has raised Generals, Police Officers, IAS officers, CEOs of fortune 500 companies (globally) - Most are outstanding members of Society and some have contributed greatly to India.


Again - I dont think you know what a feminist means.


^ This guy above is delusional as per military strategy, tactics and deployment.

Sigh.

- If you spend any time on sofrep, or doing any practical academic research you would understand the bias in the above posted Analysis

- The ABOVE IS CORRECT
- BUT the female marines under eval DID NOT GO through the same physical standard intake selection as the males. So while the analysis is probably valid it has some colour to it.

- Despite that - Other longterm biological testing shows that woman undergo more wear and tear on the limbs in the long run - So they are not suited to Humping heavy loads over long Distances.

THAT being said - I have already stated above there are NICHE roles woman can play as effectively as men in the military and security services and if so a Woman who wants to serve her country should get a fair shake.

- Light Infantry Operations -
- Intelligence Operations
- Fixed Wing + Rotary Pilots
- Tank Corp

(I have already discussed other issues with having mixed sex units so wont repeat it again)


lastly - Dismissing Female CAPF officers posted in Naxal areas (even if true) as simple Intel officers is easy when you say it from the comfort of your parents house. Its akin to telling a helo transport pilot flying troops into a Hot LZ that he is a REMF.

The Joke unfortunately is on you.


=========================================================
@
ezsasa - Hope the below helps mano - Possibly raises more questions than answers but they highlight some interesting stuff.


Interview with a CST member -
https://thenewsrep.com/71378/female-cultural-support-team-member-special-forces-enabler-speaks/


https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...ws-wars/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a22df873d6e1

https://ndupress.ndu.edu/Publicatio...-lines-cultural-support-teams-in-afghanistan/

[STUDY]
http://www.ncdsv.org/images/WC_EvaluatingFemaleEngagementTeamEffectivenessInAfghanistan_4-2012.pdf (Interesting study - Shows you the Mixed Results till now - and areas where efficiency can be increased and how)

https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/04/2...e-use-of-combat-support-teams-in-afghanistan/

8 Countries that send women into combat
vhttps://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130125-women-combat-world-australia-israel-canada-norway/

UK MOD - Study - Mixed Sex Units a Grave Consequences
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/nov/29/women-combat-ban-remains

Data analysis of Unit Cohesion on women in combat [UK Study]
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../file/27404/study_woman_combat_quant_data.pdf





 
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