Indian T-90S a sub-standard tank ?

[pankaj nema]

Methos you have absolutely no idea about the LONG developmental history of Arjun Tank

Methos Arjun has been subjected to very extensive and gruelling tests for over 15 YEARS

Several proto types have been made and small gradual improvements and changes
have been made due to the changing requirements of the Army

All these small incremental improvements have taken a lot of sweat and tears but
Arjun has arrived and there is no stopping it NOW

 

[Damian]

Modular armour inside the steel boxes. As one the Leopard 2.

This should be called a semi modular armor, that is present in most tanks with composite armor.

It also depends on the rating system. Of 71 American requirements, the German Leopard 2AV managed to fullfill 61, while the XM1 fullfilled only 48. The Americans didn't like that very much, so in the end the U.S. decided to use a different rating system (not rating single points but instead rating "groups" of properties), which lead the XM1 to fullfill 16 requirement groups, while the Leopard 2AV fullfilled only 6.

It depends in what source we belive, German one or American one. I actually preffer to belive more in American and British sources as they are more critical to even their own designs (of course I'am saying about good sources). Germans are not very much credible in what they say in my opinion. XM1 much better fullfiled most important requirement of US Army like armor protection and crew survivability. Leopard 2AV was more fuel efficent and had day hunter-killer but IMHO without complete redesign it would never fulfill what US Army wanted, and US Army after data from Israeli conflicts, definetly not wanted a tank without whole of ammunition isolated from crew. Good example here is XM1 developed by General Motors (a different design than Chrysler XM1 that ended as a winner and was standarized as M1 Abrams) that was more or less analog to Leopard 2AV (Diesel engine and unisolated ammunition in hull ammo rack) and was also not accepted by US Army.

Methos you have absolutely no idea about the LONG developmental history of Arjun Tank

Methos Arjun has been subjected to very extensive and gruelling tests for over 15 YEARS

Several proto types have been made and small gradual improvements and changes
have been made due to the changing requirements of the Army

All these small incremental improvements have taken a lot of sweat and tears but
Arjun has arrived and there is no stopping it NOW

Ok, ok we understand that You are very patriotic, but can You now be also adult and write without this crap, and with purely scientific arguments?

Developing tank 15 years is allready a complete fail, 15 years do You imagine how much money was wasted? 15 years! Christ in every other country such program would be deleted!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The problem with the trials is: We don't know any details.

Was the armour tested?
If the armour was tested, what exactly was tested? Weak places only? General armour layout? Did the army include ERA?
Was the armour penetration tested? Which ammunition was used then?
Was firing on static targets from a moving vehicle tested?
Was firing on moving targets from a static vehicle tested?
Was firing on moving targets from a moving vehicle tested?
What size did the targets have?
Was one of the tanks favoured due to the natural conditions (like weather, terrain)?

What are the exact results?
To outgun and outrun another tank it does not mean that you performed better in every aspect, but just in some. In the end the lined Broadsword blog mentions "the results are still officially secret", but at the same time claims "But Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter" - if the second quote is also true, then some Indians should be accused of breaking secrecy.

You can know about results:

E-Mail Ajai Shukla
on [email protected]


The report was send to Army brass and MOD, Arjun was never meant to compete with T-90S..

But as insisted by Army and MOD, Trials are conducted, The report can damage Indo Russian def cooperation is one reason..

Wait a second, so designers knowing the best what are strong and weak points in their designs, don't do anything on their own to improve them?! This is ridicoulus! Especially when we compare this to passion and dedication to their work of such designers like Aleksander Morozov or Israel Tal that were improving their designs on their own, not because someone ordered them to do so.

Unless until its in Requirement list, Rifled gun ?

I know that a single test is not enough to make any conclusions, neither official statements should be belive.

I give You a good example. Official French sources says that Leclerc tank have modular armor. But just take a look on every single photo I provided in different threat, in all these photos Leclerc do not have modular armor visible, only standard wedled construction... so we should belive official statements or not?

How many runs are there in single test ?, Army was anti-Arjun after these trails the conclusion is different and Army Chief words are heavy than some MOD..

I don't know about french, But i do trust Our Army words..

 

[pankaj nema]

Methos Initially the Indian Army was hoping that Arjun would flop

YES it is sad fact but the Arms import LOBBY wanted the Arjun to flop and DIE and go away

Things reached such a sad state that DRDO accused the Arms Lobby of
sabotaging the Trials and DEMANDED installation of BLACK boxes in Arjun tanks
and Comparative trials with the T 90

The Army was ORDERED by the Govt to go for comparative trials with the T 90
so that we can settle this issue once and for all

And all this above mentioned facts are related to Arjun mk1

Arjum mk1 has Now become the Arjun mk2 which will soon prove its worth in just one month time

 

[Damian]

Unless until its in Requirement list, Rifled gun ?

So this only means that designers are not dedicated to their work if they only wait for orders, and not trying to improve their designs on their own.

How many runs are there in single test ?, Army was anti-Arjun after these trails the conclusion is different and Army Chief words are heavy than some MOD..

I don't know about french, But i do trust Our Army words..

So what, if army was against why they listened to politicians?

I can say MANY things to you but they will all be deleted So I will ONLY say POLITELY

Please GO AWAY stop bothering about Arjun tank

Typical for weak minded people that have zero knowledge on that subject and even less meritoric arguments.

 

[pankaj nema]

Typical for weak minded people that have zero knowledge on that subject and even less meritoric arguments.

Since you are the EINSTIEN of Tank Design why dont you offer your consultancy services
to DRDO

We can pay you HANDSOMELY in US dollars provided you clear DRDO's written examinations

 

[Damian]

Since you are the EINSTIEN of Tank Design why dont you offer your consultancy services
to DRDO

I never claimed to be Einstein. I base my arguments on widely known desinign principles, that seems not be known to You... So I strongly advice You to get some books and educate yourself about history of development of AFV's in different countries, like US or Soviet Union. The You would know what things should be avoided, what things should be used.

We can pay you HANDSOMELY in US dollars provided you clear DRDO's written examinations

I think You don't understand the real problem. Not I should be asked for help, but companys and design bureaus in different countries, people there have much greater knowledge than I and have real experience, I only base my knowledge on what them and people working before them in the same companys or design bureaus created.

I ask again, did You even bothered to buy some books and read them? Did You read for example briliant compedium of Richard Hunnicutt about history of development of AFV's in USA? or did You read fragments of Aleksander Morozov diary or other man that was working in his design bureau? Probably not, but maybe it's time to try?

Or maybe You should learn Polish and read book of Adam Wiśniewski, designer of vehicles armors, that wrote book "Pancerze - Budowa, Projektowanie i Badanie" (Armors - Construction, Design and Test) where he explains how he designed his armors like ERAWA, CAWA or PAWA and what problems he encountered.

Or read articles of Paweł Przeździecki about development of special armors in UK and US during and after WWII that I can provide, but You need to know Polish or use translator.

Maybe after You educate yourself by using such literature, You would understand and will be more humble without that arrogant and ignorant posture.

 

[pankaj nema]

OK Damian Point Taken ; You mean well ; I take your word ; your intentions are honourable

But you must remember that repeated criticism beyond a point does raise questions
about any person's agenda hidden or other wise

When We have been bitten by our OWN people ie Arms IMPORT lobby
who wanted to BURY the Arjun Tank it is quite natural to look
with suspicion at such relentless criticism as is done by you

 

[Damian]

OK Damian Point Taken ; You mean well ; I take your word ; your intentions are honourable

But you must remember that repeated criticism beyond a point does raise questions
about any person's agenda hidden or other wise

When We have been bitten by our OWN people ie Arms IMPORT lobby
who wanted to BURY the Arjun Tank it is quite natural to look
with suspicion at such relentless criticism as is done by you

And this another problem, that You and similiar people are unable to just screw such things and go further.

You know what should be done? Arjun program should be closed and svaed money should be used for new MBT development, the real 4th generation MBT with crew in isolated cabine in hull and with unmanned turret. So then IA would have something really better than Pakistan or PRC, and as a interim solution more T-90S or T-90MS should be fielded. Look at Russians, they will do exactly the same thing, screw T-90 and fund "Armata" program. Look at USA, there are allready ideas to expand GCV program from only IFV in to also new SPH and if possible other vehicles, like new MBT for example.

Sometimes it is good to let something die, so something completely new and better can born.

And relentless criticism of tank design do not mean that I'am enemy of India or Indian people.

 

[sob]

Damian and methos have been very fair in their criticism of the shortcomings of both T 90S and the Arjun tank. Based on their experience and knowledge they have been sharing their views with all of us. Let us not shoot the messenger, we can debate the points raised by these gentlemen.

Let us all accept that DRDO has become a frightening bureaucracy with thousands of employees. It is no different from most of the other Govt. departments. As long as there is no threat to their jobs, people at DRDO will continue to spend decades on development of products. Arjun has had tremendous amounts of inputs from the Germans. We have been manufacturing the Vijayanta , T 72 and also T 90 assembly now for decades. Lots of technological exposure is there for our scientists. If there are still major flaws in the Arjun then, DRDO needs to be pulled up and heads should roll.

I have had some experience with DRDO, and let me tell you, it is very frustrating to deal with them. Most of the guys out there want to reinvent the wheel, rather than pick something readily available off the shelf and then work around it. But no, they want to design everything from the seals to the bearings, to the steel and the ammunition. Accountability and professionalism is missing in DRDO.

 

[methos]

Methos you have absolutely no idea about the LONG developmental history of Arjun Tank

I think I have pretty much knowledge about the time. The Arjun tank is based on the first Indian indigenous tank project known as "Chetak", which was initalized in 1974 (at the very beginning only studies, until late 1970s). First prototypes were sheduled to be completed in 1983, but it became already clear in 1983 that the chosen configuration (especially the indigenous engine and transmission). During It's development the configuration (and the name) did change, the originally planned 45+ tonnes Chetak became the 58 tonnes Arjun. The rifled gun is one of the very few things kept from the orignal configuration.

At the other hand the Leopard 2 development lasted 10 years without conception phase. The conception itself is a continous further development of already made studies/conceptions and can be traced back to 1965. The T-72 is a continous improvement based on designs from the 1960s too.

Methos Arjun has been subjected to very extensive and gruelling tests for over 15 YEARS

Not in it's current configuration. There are many things that were changed from the original prototypes or even the concepts made in the 1970s/1980s.

It depends in what source we belive, German one or American one.

No. It does not change anything about the results. 61 requirements fullfilled by Leopard 2AV, 48 by the XM1 prototype. This is not depending on sources, it is a fact. This are the offical results. The Germans could not sue the U.S. for changing to the "grouped criteria system" because of the contract they signed.

I actually preffer to belive more in American and British sources as they are more critical to even their own designs (of course I'am saying about good sources). Germans are not very much credible in what they say in my opinion.

I don't know which German sources you have read, but let me say some thing about it. The main sources about the "XM1 vs Leopard 2AV" trials from the American side are typically Zaloga and Hunnicutt. I have read their books, but they do make a few mistakes (esp. regarding the competition trials) and they mention the whole topic only very short. My main problem with them is that both are historians. Historians should be searching for the truth, but they can only base their opinion on what they have heard and what they have read - this is the reason for some good parts, but also for some mistakes; one nice example of that both write in their books that the Leopard 2AV would be inferior armoured than the XM1 - because someone told this too them. German sources say that the armour was not tested by the U.S. as it was not shipped to the U.S. at the time the test firings were done. The U.S. did not test the armour, but instead weight demonstrators and someone created the myth that the Leopard 2 would have weak armour. The German government then ordered all participants to not disagree with such claims as part of a missinformation campaign.

German authors having written about this topic or mentioned it include Paul-Werner Krapke (who worked in a leading position in the German federal procurement agency (BWB) during the Leopard 2 development and was actually taking part in the joint evaluation), Rolf Hilmes (served as tanker on M48, Leopard 1/2, studied engineering, worked at the BWB and lectures at the German military academy about military vehicles) and Walter Spielberger (who served during the second world war as tanker and wrote about military technology since then).

There are also various reports of manipulations or silly ways to measure the data - firing on the move was only tested on flat ground, hypothetical values were used for accerlation and German tanks were manned by conscripts, while the XM1s were manned by more experienced soldiers.

XM1 much better fullfiled most important requirement of US Army like armor protection and crew survivability. Leopard 2AV was more fuel efficent and had day hunter-killer but IMHO without complete redesign it would never fulfill what US Army wanted, and US Army after data from Israeli conflicts, definetly not wanted a tank without whole of ammunition isolated from crew.

The problem is that according to German sources the Leopard 2AV did fullfill the American requirements for the isolation of ammunition. The Leopard 2AV did have another turret layout, as the Americans wanted the turret drives to be located in the hull. If this means that all ammunition was moved into the turret or some rounds were still located without blow-out compartments in the hull (and the M1 did have some unisolated rounds on the hull floor) is unknown to me.
The Leopard 2AV did however have a better FCS than the XM1 (not only hunter-killer capable, but also fitted with more sensors etc.). Armour protection of the Leopard 2AV was enough to fullfill the U.S. requirements, probably even more as the German requirements seem to have been more than "vs 115 mm APFSDS at 800 m".
The XM1 however was 25% cheaper than the licence assembly of Leopard 2AVs. Btw: According to some newspaper article the first time a serial M1 was presented to the public it could only drive backwards... must have been funny

 

[Archer]

Damian and methos have been very fair in their criticism of the shortcomings of both T 90S and the Arjun tank. Based on their experience and knowledge they have been sharing their views with all of us. Let us not shoot the messenger, we can debate the points raised by these gentlemen.

Let us all accept that DRDO has become a frightening bureaucracy with thousands of employees. It is no different from most of the other Govt. departments. As long as there is no threat to their jobs, people at DRDO will continue to spend decades on development of products. Arjun has had tremendous amounts of inputs from the Germans. We have been manufacturing the Vijayanta , T 72 and also T 90 assembly now for decades. Lots of technological exposure is there for our scientists. If there are still major flaws in the Arjun then, DRDO needs to be pulled up and heads should roll.

With this, dear sir, you just mixed up the issue entirely with misinformation. The DRDO had very little proper exposure to any of these tanks because they were all build to designs supplied by OEMs and that too in bits and pieces. An entire book can be written each time around about HVFs experience with the Vijayanta and T-72 and the boondoggles they faced. Furthermore, the DRDO actually designed the first Arjun prototype series, the Chetak around the Vijayanta experience as limited as it was, with direct design input from the EME folks. This was put paid to because the Army in its wisdom decided for a M1 Abrams equivalent and promptly recast the specifications again and again..

Second, the claim that DRDO is like any other Govt organization - hardly the truth. Having spoken and worked with a wide variety of public and private sector folks, its my knowledge that the DRDO is probably head and shoulders above 90% of the so called elite institutions we have in India today, which are basically doing tier 2 work for companies from abroad & the DRDO is on par and even better than most of the heavy engineering firms who are their partners. The work these guys do at DRDO encompasses pretty much end to end stuff and their record in areas where India has overall miserable support - eg electronics hardware, is fairly credible.

I have had some experience with DRDO, and let me tell you, it is very frustrating to deal with them. Most of the guys out there want to reinvent the wheel, rather than pick something readily available off the shelf and then work around it. But no, they want to design everything from the seals to the bearings, to the steel and the ammunition. Accountability and professionalism is missing in DRDO.

And dear sir, if you don't understand why DRDO does this, with all your experience, then truly it explains how miserable most of our public is when it comes to understanding technology and its implications on strategy. DRDO tries to do as much as it can inhouse because it knows from bitter experience how these very same components are denied at the cusp of success to deliberately or otherwise kill vital programs and projects.

Here is an example from the Arjun itself. Based on the Army's increasingly obdurate stance on fire control (with a desired hit pk of 90% and above under various conditions) the DRDO looked abroad for partners. They could only find a Dutch-belgian company willing to work with them to develop the system. Even there, this firm imported the Thermal Imager from the United States. As the firm was also working with the Chinese on some other program, the US promptly cancelled the license and India was left without any import capability. Finally, the French came in. In the meantime, DRDO approached BEL to codevelop the technology. To transition even LSP prototyping into series manufacture would have meant an expenditure of several hundred million dollars and the proposal went nowhere. As point of fact, there are only a handful of countries worldwide that develop and series manufacture thermal imaging matrixes today. All continue to pump in money to further develop these systems. In India, the BEL venture to manufacture NVGs based even on IMage Intensifying Tube tech went nowhere as BEL could nowhere manage to invest in further development, and even its proposal to invest in next gen tubes under TOT was hanging fire.

Bottomline - it is these kind of experiences that make DRDO very wary and rightly focus on even subsystem development. The case of the Rajendra radar and many others is illustrative. Each time, they crossed a hurdle in software or any other subsystem, partners pulled out elsewhere. These are not accidental, but deliberate tactics used by arms cartels to ensure India remains backward and not a potential rival. The MTCR for instance was designed with nations like India in mind.

The day DRDO starts thinking small and focusing only on systems integration without parallel technology development programs, that is the day we too end up a nowhere but our sugar daddy state which can only look abroad for tech and not within. Fact is DRDO has struggled but succeeded against immense odds. The current missiles for instance use RLG-INS systems, not imported but developed inhouse by RCI. How many countries have mastered this sort of stuff on India style budgets. A few years back, at a public event, a French gentleman was bragging about how his products were being imported by India and was dismissive India could even acquire let alone develop this technology from anyplace else. Within 3-5 years, we have these developed and manufactured locally. Similarly, DRDO's radars are fairly competitive against imports. I personally saw an Israeli Elta rep spend a hour in an animated discussion with the BFSR team and admit the latters features were better than the then on display product.

I find it amusing at best, how we Indians love to self flagellate and run down our own institutions at the blink of a hat whereas we gladly bend over for the most rubbish, ridiculous products imported at excessive cost.

The same gentleman pontificating on the merits of the Polish defence industry and informing us about book knowledge by designers etc would do well to inform all of us as to why VK Singh singularly picked out the WZT-3 ARV imported and assembled by BEML as a singular act of malpractice. In VK Singhs words - the armoured corps informed him it was one of the most useless inductions ever.

A nation which can make IRBMs and now ICBMs of its own design, a range of world class missiles does not need to sit and self flagellate about perceived mistakes and wrongs. It has enough on its own plate to progress and enough credibility to do so as well. Having seen the quality of people in the so called much vaunted private sector and those working in the DRDO, the latter can credibly compare with the former any day. The former hires them for far more, and gives them limited work satisfaction at best. Sadly, one of the reasons why people would leave organizations like the DRDO is because their fellow Indians, labouring under the colonial mindset still believe that working for a MNC and earning a hefty pay packet is any day more status friendly.

Not shooting the messenger as you began this post is all very well. But then again, dear sir, did you think of the other side of the coin when running down Indian institutions. You did not. And I dare say, that is a malaise that afflicts the majority of Indians.

 

[sayareakd]

to all Indian members world is not that streight forward as it seems.

 

[Archer]

And this another problem, that You and similiar people are unable to just screw such things and go further.

You know what should be done? Arjun program should be closed and svaed money should be used for new MBT development, the real 4th generation MBT with crew in isolated cabine in hull and with unmanned turret. So then IA would have something really better than Pakistan or PRC, and as a interim solution more T-90S or T-90MS should be fielded. Look at Russians, they will do exactly the same thing, screw T-90 and fund "Armata" program. Look at USA, there are allready ideas to expand GCV program from only IFV in to also new SPH and if possible other vehicles, like new MBT for example.

Sometimes it is good to let something die, so something completely new and better can born.

And relentless criticism of tank design do not mean that I'am enemy of India or Indian people.

And with this Damian, you just depicted that you have not been tracking actual product development and nor are you looking at the big picture. Because, no country, no MIC which is developing core capabilities for the first time would be so foolish as to leave its own MBT design and then jump onto the next bandwagon without first perfecting the first design, manufacturing it, putting it into the field and learning vital lessons, all the while working on iteratively modernizing it further.

In fact, an Israeli Armour div guy who visited India castigated the Indian Army for wanting to jump to the next best thing each time around, instead he said work on your own products, mature them and then move. India simply does not face the transformational threat that it needs to rush headlong into a new design without even learning the right lessons from its first.

You bring up the US at every opportunity. Have you actually ever visited the US, or spent some time with actual US designers in real life as versus the internet? Do so sometime, talk with them, study/work with them & some interesting things will emerge. The entire US industry today is where it is thanks to the incredible, blank check investment of the Cold War. Today, the US is proceeding ahead with what it can after it has outsourced & let many components of its core heavy engineering and technology enabled value chains go abroad. Even so, the MIC/Defence industry allows the US to play in several segments of the entire value chain where it can promote firms with interdisciplinary capabilities. And it developed those capabilities on the back of huge investments in several industries like the automotive sector which allowed US firms to leverage subsystems developed by partners.

To compare that to India is pointless.

India never went through such a phase with multiple industries developing sequentially and then picking and choosing which could be economically retained. In India's case, all of its industries have developed in parallel. Our automotive sector is picking up steam today, at the same time as our MIC. The missile and space launch vehicle sector are progressing in parallel with our software sector which is moving up in complexity from the transactional work earlier to value added work today.
This is what makes things much more challenging for India and why programs face a hurdle as it is developing the ecosystem simultaneously and not just doing product integration or new product development with the advantage of previously existing industries acting as enablers.

It is critical for a country like India to finish its key programs, see them to success and then move, rather than jumping from project to project. Pretty much every program where the country has seen substantial success has followed a progression of iterative marks. Mastering the baseline technology allows for gains to be made on follow on programs. The same is being done with the Arjun today which is the testbed for pretty much everything that India is developing locally in armour systems from ammunition to vetronics. And via the Arjun these technologies will mature.

I could quote examples from the missile program to make you understand, but if you are truly interested look here:
Ballistic Glide Re Entry Vehicle (BGRV) and Indian Missile Program

These technologies being used in the latest Indian missiles and which are fairly competitive against other systems worldwide, were matured by the Prithvi missile system (which showed Indian scientists how to tailor trajectories and the overall integration and development of various systems) and the Agni TD. Today, they are deployed across multiple classes. Further, the production of the Prithvi, widely panned as "obsolete" gave India both a functional system, and the understanding of how to actually mass manufacture, and qualify an end to end weapons system. Today, it has come in handy to make everything from ICBM class missile systems to BMD programs.

Point is program success builds iteratively. India neither has the resources nor the time to apply the scattershot, 100 programs cancel a few keep others running the US and Russia did. Comanche style resource hogs are not available to India. This sort of wasteful technology development funnel is a big reason why the US industry is increasingly challenged by cost and time pressures. The latter is one thing, the former means Comanche, Crusader, B-2, Zumwalt style fiascos.

In India, they'll take time and trade it off against program cost, but they will deploy and finish the program to its original intention wherever possible. The second, third tranche of programs that follow then, reap the benefits in reduced development cycle time and designer, test, user experience. We have already done so for radars, electronic systems and missiles. The challenge is greater for both aircraft and tanks because in these cases the platforms are more complex and more interdisciplinary. They are also more wide ranging and expensive.

Bottomline, this business of cancel and go with a new program would be a disaster for Indian MIC development. The challenge for India is to better plan its activities and do a proper resource estimation and budgeting at the beginning itself, as versus unrealistic staff requirements followed by mission creep exacerbated by technology lag. The answer is to not jump from program to program.

 

[p2prada]

Just wait for June end you will get all reports about how Arjun mk 2 fared in its trials

They are regular trials, not comparatively trials. We will only get info like Arjun is doing trials and in a year we will see a Parliamentary report about the trials published. If there are problems we will know snippets of it.

New problems on Mk2 have already been identified(beyond any problems, if any, found during tests) and hence DRDO announced a Mk3 which will supposedly fix all the problems in Mk2.

 

[balai_c]

Great post Archer ji , exactly the sentiments I had in mind. Building a tank from OEM supplied specs and CKD or SKD kits(i.e in BR parlance, screw driver giri), and building from the grounds up is something else. Technology development is an iterative process, something that is reflective of the socioeconomic developmental state of a nation. It cannot be built using a magic wand and takes a lot of time and effort ( including sweat and blood).

Arjun is the first MBT built by India on it's own. And as a first born , it is nothing short of brilliant. Even if it has some deficiencies, it can be elliminated by building iterative batches, each batch better than the next. That's how the greatest millitary products of the world are made: F-16 improved in every batch. Block A-B led to block C-D,and so on. That's how we have the greatest light fighter of our times. Similarly, the much vaunted merkeva tank of IDF got developed. the first batch had severe deficiencies, which were gradually improved, and eventually we have the merkeva that we admire. Had the IDF got cold feet ,or develop severe import fetish like we see in our country, the great Israeli MIC would not exist.

So, for the fellow members here , see the development of ARJUN MBT , LCA, or any Indian project in the backdrop of technology development of our country.
Each product will benefit the next. That's how great powers are born. Not by the use of a spell, or a magic wand, by tedious and boring good-old fashioned perseverance.

 

[p2prada]

Methos you have absolutely no idea about the LONG developmental history of Arjun Tank

Methos Arjun has been subjected to very extensive and gruelling tests for over 15 YEARS

Several proto types have been made and small gradual improvements and changes
have been made due to the changing requirements of the Army

All these small incremental improvements have taken a lot of sweat and tears but
Arjun has arrived and there is no stopping it NOW

Do you know why Arjun has the longest history of tests?

It is because they failed the first time and then had to repeat the test. Then they failed again, and repeated the test again. Then they failed a third time and then they repeated the same test again. This way a 1000Km run will become 3000Km run. Thus the longest tested tank in the history of mankind. Very proud.

Sweat and tears won't stop an enemy shell, heavy armour will. You can keep your sweat and tears to yourself and give the Army heavy armour.

This quote is still relevant to you.

Pankaj Nema, it appears you have not fully understood what others are saying on this thread.

Developing tank 15 years is allready a complete fail, 15 years do You imagine how much money was wasted? 15 years! Christ in every other country such program would be deleted!

Our COAS from 1991 tried to cancel Arjun. But DRDO stopped it and MoD relented to DRDO's pressure. It was understandable at the time because DRDO was still building up on the experience. Now the Army cannot do anything about it because DRDO is worried about it's profit margin.

@methos

and the M1 did have some unisolated rounds on the hull floor) is unknown to me.

I heard there is place for 6 rounds in front of the loader, near his feet IMO.

 

[pankaj nema]

All I would say is that people are biased against DRDO and want DRDO to
show the same results as Western Industrial and Technological Giants

And since that is not possible they resort to relentless and meaning less criticism

There was NO compulsion for Indian Army to induct even the 124 Arjun Mk 1 that they have
done IA has NOT done any favour to DRDO

Where we have 5000 + T series tanks ie T 55 T 72 and T 90 we could have inducted
124 more imported tanks

What then these critics want is that India should forever remain dependent on
import lobbies

 

[pankaj nema]

The pace of technological changes globally have caused these long delays
both in LCA and Arjun tank

Both IAF and IA wanted the final product to be contempory if not the best

And hence the GSQR were changed both by IAF and IA in case of
LCA and Arjun ; which was accepted by the DRDO

We must look at from where India and DRDO STARTED their quest for technological
self reliance

If we FOREVER look at M 1 Abrams and Leopards of the World then we can say good bye to
any indigenious weapon systems

 

[sayareakd]

New problems on Mk2 have already been identified(beyond any problems, if any, found during tests) and hence DRDO announced a Mk3 which will supposedly fix all the problems in Mk2.

link to this pls, plus why not solve the problem here and then move on.
BTW their is no guarantee that upgrade T 90 wont be immune to
Problem in Indian conditions.