Indian T-90S a sub-standard tank ?

[pmaitra]

And how do You know that T-90S have less thick frontal armor than Arjun? At what angle it is thicker or thinner? Do anyone done any proper messurements?

Already answered before you asked the question. has been in tanks, and he knows what he is talking about.

Its good but not as good as Arjun, Why coz of the thickness of the frontal Composite combine with RHA module to T-90S..

I was on both tanks and there to observe them externally as well as internally that is why ..

But did You done proper observations? This is the problem, You need to know what You want observe, You need to understand what You are observing.

This is the main problem of our times, to simplify everything, but world is not simple, so answers to any questions should never be simple.

Yes, I am pretty sure he has observed.

[HR][/HR]

I'am kind to people that deseve kindness, not for people that are not even capable to at least to some level, write properly.

Again, go easy. Not everyone can write properly, and if we started making a list of people who cannot write properly, do you think you will not be in that list?
Again, read below:

Its not a Personal attack as long as you don't use words like ( Kid, STFU ) etc..

If someone is wrong, go with ease, he may not be good as you..

 

[Damian]

The frontal modules of Arjun are thicker than the ones on T-90S, You don't need to measure what is obvious..

The difference is 30cm or more that much not just by few inches or cms and can be measured by naked eye..

To understand from outer look is not enough, Went under the tank turret to see the crew compartment size and extension to forward area..

Wrong, naked eye can't see everything. How did You messured armor thickness? At what angle? Can You answer these question or can I just treat them as only Your opinion based on pure observation without doing proper messurements?

Besides this You can't messure properly Arjun armor modules because weld lines on turret roof in Arjun are barely visible (or not visible at all), without proper and precise internal messurements it can't be done.

World is rather difficult from the pics on internet, But practically on & in the tank with proper Knowledge..

That its better to be practically on the spot to have better idea of size and dimensions..

No, world in reality is not simple...

Already answered before you asked the question. has been in tanks, and he knows what he is talking about.

I know soldiers that were in tanks and don't know anything about their armor protection or the whole theory standing behind design vehicles armor protection. Only because You sit in something, does not mean You understand it.

Yes, I am pretty sure he has observed.

And I'm not.

Again, go easy. Not everyone can write properly, and if we started making a list of people who cannot write properly, do you think you will not be in that list?

It's not about ortography or making typos. It's all about how it is wrote.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Wrong, naked eye can't see everything. How did You messured armor thickness? At what angle? Can You answer these question or can I just treat them as only Your opinion based on pure observation without doing proper messurements?

Besides this You can't messure properly Arjun armor modules because weld lines on turret roof in Arjun are barely visible (or not visible at all), without proper and precise internal messurements it can't be done..

You don't need measurement to understand the difference between 2cm and 20cm ..

You cannot understand until you are yourself on the tank to understand it with bare eyes, not some pictures from few angles..

 

[methos]

The problem is that the T-90 has already pretty thick armour. The exact thickness varies by source, but it is said to be something around 80 - 90 cm at the thicker part. This is about the same as the M1A2 (depending on source 82 - 96 cm), the Leclerc, the Challenger 2 or the Leopard 2 without wedge-modules (84 cm turret base) have. If the armour of the Arjun is now significantly thicker (30 cm or more at the front), then it would very likely mean that Kanchan armour is a very inefficient type of composite armour (given the fact that the previously mentioned tanks are immune to most types of ammunition at most ranges).

Alternatively you compare two different parts. The T-90's armour is at the turret center thinner than at the rest of the turret - in this area it is said to be something about 60 cm thick - so if the Arjun has 30 cm thicker frontal armour than this part, the Arjun would have comparable armour thickness as M1A2, Leclerc, Leopard 2 etc. If this second case is true, then you also should take a look at the shape of the turret - the weakened part is less than a half of the turret (excluding the mantlet). Given the fact that the Arjun has a very thick and "thin" mantlet (less than half as thick as the frontal armour boxes and not only filled with composite armour, but also with parts of the gun-mountig) I would be rather suprised if the frontal turret survivability of the Arjun is higher.

 

[Damian]

Another problem is at what angle You messure armour thickness. At 0 degrees T-90A/S turret armor will be as thick as in other modern tanks, at 30 degrees it will be thinner. It is just geometry issue.

Other problem is number of layers or as I preffer to call it a volume of composite insert per front armor thickness. I belive and many other people, that western design turrets have more composite insert per their thickness than Soviet, Russian and Ukrainian counterparts.

However Kanchan armor is still a problematic one, why? Mainly because if we would belive Indian sources, it appears Kanchan is based on Burlington armor technology and represents protection standards of 1980's. Why? When we get back to the discussion about Kanchan, we will see that it is based mostly on ceramics encased between steel plates.

It appears that Kanchan looks very passive, because no dynamic elements as far as I remember are mentioned, neither heavy metal alloy modules are present.

IMHO Indian T-90S with Kanchan armor instead of Russian one, and with K-5 ERA have higher protection than Arjun Mk1, and will have comparable protection level to Arjun Mk2 with K-5 ERA.

 

[san]

New Russian Army weaponry 'inferior' to NATO's, overpriced | Defense | RIA Novosti
Quote:
DefenseNew Russian Army weaponry 'inferior' to NATO's, overpriced
The most advanced weapon systems manufactured for Russia's ground forces are below NATO and even Chinese standards and are expensive, GF chief Col. Gen. Alexander Postnikov said on Tuesday.

"The weapon models that are manufactured by our industry, including armor, artillery and small arms and light weapons, fail to meet the standards that exist in NATO and even China," he said at a session of the Defense and Security Committee of the upper house of the Russian parliament.

He said that Russia's most advanced tank, the T-90, is in fact a modification of the Soviet-era T-72 tank [entered production in 1971] but costs 118 million rubles (over $4 million) per unit.

"It would be easier for us to buy three Leopards [Germany's main battle tanks] with this money," Postnikov said.

Now, shall we believe the Russian General or think that he doesnot know anything on tank. On Leopards I believe he want to mean used one. If we believe the arguments on T90's superiority then the General is lying in front of the Defense and Security Committee of the upper house of the Russian parliament. Also argument like " army always wants more money and say something like" is also not go well as T90 is a an export product and competating on several tender.

 

[sob]

Sorry If I come across as a layman, but one question has been bothering me, where does Arjun get the extra weight say as compared to T 90s. Maybe the engines, or the armor may be thicker leading to the extra weight.

 

[Damian]

New Russian Army weaponry 'inferior' to NATO's, overpriced | Defense | RIA Novosti
Quote:
DefenseNew Russian Army weaponry 'inferior' to NATO's, overpriced
The most advanced weapon systems manufactured for Russia's ground forces are below NATO and even Chinese standards and are expensive, GF chief Col. Gen. Alexander Postnikov said on Tuesday.

"The weapon models that are manufactured by our industry, including armor, artillery and small arms and light weapons, fail to meet the standards that exist in NATO and even China," he said at a session of the Defense and Security Committee of the upper house of the Russian parliament.

He said that Russia's most advanced tank, the T-90, is in fact a modification of the Soviet-era T-72 tank [entered production in 1971] but costs 118 million rubles (over $4 million) per unit.

"It would be easier for us to buy three Leopards [Germany's main battle tanks] with this money," Postnikov said.

Now, shall we believe the Russian General or think that he doesnot know anything on tank. On Leopards I believe he want to mean used one. If we believe the arguments on T90's superiority then the General is lying in front of the Defense and Security Committee of the upper house of the Russian parliament. Also argument like " army always wants more money and say something like" is also not go well as T90 is a an export product and competating on several tender.

Your arguments are typical for someone who don't know Russians and situation in Russia. Russian designers are capable to design good weapon systems, and are doing this, but MoD don't have money to pay them, so some of higher officials try to force industry to lower prices by saying that they were buy foreing weapon systems. This is the reality, You should learn how to read between lines.

And BTW, proper designation is T-90 not T90... Learn that the only proper designation system is that one in official nomenclature of each country.

Sorry If I come across as a layman, but one question has been bothering me, where does Arjun get the extra weight say as compared to T 90s. Maybe the engines, or the armor may be thicker leading to the extra weight.

Arjun is heavier than T-90 because it is bigger, more internal volume means less efficent armoring of vehicle and unnececary growth in weight. Another reason might be bigger and heavier internal elements, like engine, transmission.

Remember, more weight not nececary means more armor. Especially in case of Arjun that have composite armor placement on it's surface similiar to T-90 or other T-xx series tanks, while for example NATO tanks have much more composite armor on their surface, and this is the main reason why they are so big, if You would compare internal space of Leopard 2, M1A2, Leclerc or Challenger 2 inside turret with Arjun turret, You would get impression that these NATO tanks have less space for crew inside than Arjun. And it is true, because most space there is used for armor or other elements of vehicle.

So it's not so easy with vehicles protection, weight is just no an indicator of protection.

For example US was able to design ultralight and very good composite armor for it's Future Combat Systems Manned Ground Vehicle universal combat platform. This vehicle at weight of only 20-29 tons, have frontal armor immune to 45mm APFSDS ammuniton, while many todays heavier or comparable in weight and size IFV's or APC's are not even capable to withstand 25mm APFSDS ammo. Think about that.

 

[san]

Your arguments are typical for someone who don't know Russians and situation in Russia. Russian designers are capable to design good weapon systems, and are doing this, but MoD don't have money to pay them, so some of higher officials try to force industry to lower prices by saying that they were buy foreing weapon systems. This is the reality, You should learn how to read between lines.

And BTW, proper designation is T-90 not T90... Learn that the only proper designation system is that one in official nomenclature of each country.

Damian,
I am not going to learn Russians and not interested in the situation in Russia. Russia's economic situation is not so bad as we are now.
Giving false information before the Parliament is crime and I doubt Russia is exceptional. If he wants only to reduce the price he can say it plainly and not required to say " Russian weapons are inferior to NATO and Chinese" to demoralize his own army, Is not this is a pure logic?
Same way pls try to learn Indian and how situation in India works:cool2:

 

[methos]

Sorry If I come across as a layman, but one question has been bothering me, where does Arjun get the extra weight say as compared to T 90s. Maybe the engines, or the armor may be thicker leading to the extra weight.

As Damian said, it is mostly depending on the volume. The Arjun does have a pretty width turret (i.e. the turret profile has much more surface than other tanks like the Leopard 2).

Then the roof is flat and not very much sloped. While modern APFSDS and HEAT rounds are capable of penetrating armour at very steep angles, they still ricochet at very strong slopes, i.e. if the slope is somewhere around 78 - 90° NATO angle then the slope makes armour senseless, because from typical impact angles the rounds fired at it will ricochet. In case of the Leopard 2 and other NATO tanks (e.g. the M1 Abrams) the roof and the glacis are heavily sloped and a rather thin, which increases the internal volume without increasing the weight needed for composite armour. In case of the Arjun the frontal section of the turret roof seems to be sloped but only to a very small degree, while the glacis of the Arjun follows the Soviet/Russian design doctrine, which means that it is less sloped and therefore needs more composite armour.

The engine of the Leopard 2 (which should be weightwise comparable to the 1400 HP MTU engine in the Arjun) weighs 2,685 kg, while the V-46-6 engine of the T-72A and T-72M1 weighs only 982 kg. Other parts which weigh more are the "naked" hull (just the steel, no armour or anything else), the drivetrain and the transmission, the chains, the FCS equipment etc.

In the T-90 there has to be only place for three man (and it is often said that even these three do not have much place for moving) and the since all three crew members can sit (no loader who has to stand) the roof can be lowered. This alone are two reasons why the interior volume is lower than that of the Arjun. Then Soviet and Russian tank designers decided to split up components in the interior to fill so that they could fit easier in a small volume.

As historic example we could take a look at the early M1 Abrams and the Leopard 2. Both tanks weigh about the same (Leopard 2 weight is about 650 kg more, but turret weight is iirc. more comparable), but the M1 Abrams carries a lighter gun (together with the gun mounting and stabilization it should be more than a ton lighter). But if we take a look at the frontal profile we will notice that the turret of the M1 Abrams is smaller and wider, which means that the area which is under full armour protection is more than 10% larger than that of the Leopard 2. Even more interessting will be a view of the horizontal profile, which shows that the M1 Abrams has the sides under full armour protection, while the Leopard 2 has only half of the turret side under full armour protection, which means that the M1 carries more than 50% more side armour. At the same weight the Leopard 2 will likely have more frontal protection (and since the frontal armour is thicker than that of the basic M1 Abrams it probably has)

 

[Damian]

Damian,
I am not going to learn Russians and not interested in the situation in Russia. Russia's economic situation is not so bad as we are now.
Giving false information before the Parliament is crime and I doubt Russia is exceptional. If he wants only to reduce the price he can say it plainly and not required to say " Russian weapons are inferior to NATO and Chinese" to demoralize his own army, Is not this is a pure logic?
Same way pls try to learn Indian and how situation in India works

1) So maybe You should start to learn Russian? You want others to learn Indian, but in the same time You stay ignorant about situation in other countries.

2) Economic situation in Russia is not bad but also due to social finances their MoD can't pay for every expensive weapon system. World is not that easy as computer games are You know.

3) Such practices to force industry to do something are completely normal. in USA for example military is underestimating it's own potencial so politicians can give them more money for new equipment, it is not forcing the industry but politicians, however princpals are the same.

As historic example we could take a look at the early M1 Abrams and the Leopard 2. Both tanks weigh about the same (Leopard 2 weight is about 650 kg more, but turret weight is iirc. more comparable), but the M1 Abrams carries a lighter gun (together with the gun mounting and stabilization it should be more than a ton lighter). But if we take a look at the frontal profile we will notice that the turret of the M1 Abrams is smaller and wider, which means that the area which is under full armour protection is more than 10% larger than that of the Leopard 2. Even more interessting will be a view of the horizontal profile, which shows that the M1 Abrams has the sides under full armour protection, while the Leopard 2 has only half of the turret side under full armour protection, which means that the M1 carries more than 50% more side armour. At the same weight the Leopard 2 will likely have more frontal protection (and since the frontal armour is thicker than that of the basic M1 Abrams it probably has)

That's true, however M1's turret is wider than Leopard 2 because it have inclined side armor, if armor would not be inclined like on Leopard 2, turret would be probably more or less the same width.

However as for frontal protection, it is preatty interesting to say that the original M1 had very well balanced frontal armor protection of both, turret and hull.

We estimated front turret armor thickness of original M1 at 0 degrees to be ~740mm thick (in M1IP, M1A1 and M1A2 it is ~900-960mm thick as sources says it was thickened by approx ~220-230mm), and front hull armor (beak) we estimated to be ~700-720mm thick as far as we can estimated from external and internal photos (most drawing are very incorrect in this case making driver compartment too big (long?).

 

[pmaitra]

World is not that easy as computer games are You know.

Damian,

Could you please explain what you mean by that sentence? You even got into an argument with a army person, in this very thread. Tell me, have you served in the army? Why do you have to try so hard? Just make your point and let the other person make his point. That's it.

Calm it down and please keep it cordial.

Thanks!

P.S.: This is meant to be a unilateral message.

 

[Damian]

What this have to do with serving or not serving in the military? Many times I saw civilians that know more about tanks or other weapon systems than soldiers actually using them. You think that being in army makes You some little Jimmy special? No it does not. There is actually not many people in uniforms that are actually interested in tanks or AFV's technology, designs etc. Most of them are only know how to operate these vehicles, not how they are builded, what are their weak sides and strong sides... in fact most soldiers belive that they serve on "the best tank in the world" because they are said so during their training, but when it comes to the details, reality is very different to what they belive in.

This is the fact, when You ask a soldier what he knows about his vehicle armor protection he will say You some slogans and it's all, but when You ask someone that is actually interested in that subject, read tons of books about it, documents, found photos (many times these photos are classified but are avaiable in tank lovers community) he can talk about this in a very professional way whole day, and he perhaps never was in military. This is the difference.

 

[sob]

Thanks Damian and methos for the quick lesson. I now have a better idea.

IIRC for the ICV version of Arjun, the rear hatch also had the external fuel strapped on, and CVRDE wanted it to be operated by an electromechanical system. On doing the calculations we found that with the fuel the dead weight of the hatch was coming close to 2.5 tons. Needless to say the whole project got dropped very fast.

 

[Singh]

What this have to do with serving or not serving in the military? Many times I saw civilians that know more about tanks or other weapon systems than soldiers actually using them. You think that being in army makes You some little Jimmy special? No it does not. There is actually not many people in uniforms that are actually interested in tanks or AFV's technology, designs etc. Most of them are only know how to operate these vehicles, not how they are builded, what are their weak sides and strong sides... in fact most soldiers belive that they serve on "the best tank in the world" because they are said so during their training, but when it comes to the details, reality is very different to what they belive in.

This is the fact, when You ask a soldier what he knows about his vehicle armor protection he will say You some slogans and it's all, but when You ask someone that is actually interested in that subject, read tons of books about it, documents, found photos (many times these photos are classified but are avaiable in tank lovers community) he can talk about this in a very professional way whole day, and he perhaps never was in military. This is the difference.

Very well argued and very valid points sir.

However, the other moderator is just asking you to refrain from ad hominem comments to prevent this thread from going the drain.

 

[Damian]

Thanks Damian and methos for the quick lesson. I now have a better idea.

IIRC for the ICV version of Arjun, the rear hatch also had the external fuel strapped on, and CVRDE wanted it to be operated by an electromechanical system. On doing the calculations we found that with the fuel the dead weight of the hatch was coming close to 2.5 tons. Needless to say the whole project got dropped very fast.

They wanted to design ICV version of Arjun? Or rather ICV based on Arjun... Interesting. And the fuel on hatch is not a very good idea. It is known that fuel add a bit of protection, especially against shaped charges, but such fuel tanks should be isolated from crew, best way is to encase it in some sort of cavity away from crew and ammunition.

Very well argued and very valid points sir.

However, the other moderator is just asking you to refrain from ad hominem comments to prevent this thread from going the drain.

Ok.

 

[p2prada]

Damian,
Could you please explain what you mean by that sentence? You even got into an argument with a army person, in this very thread. Tell me, have you served in the army? Why do you have to try so hard? Just make your point and let the other person make his point. That's it.

Army person does not mean knowledgeable in technical specs. For that you need to go speak to tech officers.

A friend of mine used to be a tech officer in the RAF. He pointed out the same thing. Whenever the tech officers go to the mess, the others would throw questions at them related to the technical specs and aerodynamics of aircraft, including pilots.

What this have to do with serving or not serving in the military? Many times I saw civilians that know more about tanks or other weapon systems than soldiers actually using them.

Ajai Shukla used the same words in a discussion in BR, back in 2004 I guess. He was killing some BR boys regarding Arjun, he was against Arjun at the time.

Thanks Damian and methos for the quick lesson. I now have a better idea.

IIRC for the ICV version of Arjun, the rear hatch also had the external fuel strapped on, and CVRDE wanted it to be operated by an electromechanical system. On doing the calculations we found that with the fuel the dead weight of the hatch was coming close to 2.5 tons. Needless to say the whole project got dropped very fast.

You must be talking about Abhay.

Livefist: DRDO's Abhay ICV detailed

It has nothing to do with Arjun. I think only design company is the same.

 

[venkat]

Damian !!! please give your address and telephone number. i will pass it on to Arjun designers to appoint you as consultant ,if you and your govt have no problems!!!!:thumb:

 

[Damian]

Damian !!! please give your address and telephone number. i will pass it on to Arjun designers to appoint you as consultant ,if you and your govt have no problems!!!!

Why? I'am merely a civilian, not an engineer, and DRDO engineeres should know better than me how to design tank. Besides this, if there are problems with Arjun, they should just take some data, photos etc. of other designs, analize them and choose such solutions that can improve their own design.

Besides this, we have this forum, if You want to pass to them some of my, Methos or Militarysta observations, just do it.

BTW My only suggestion is that if they want really improve armor protection of Arjun, they should base general design of at least turret (hull is more or less well designed and can stay as it is) on M1 Abrams turret design that is far better optimized for armor protection than Leopard 2 turret. In case of M1 the only weak zone in frontal turret is narrow a gun mantle mask, in Leopard 2 besides very wide gun mantle maks, there is also that main sight mounting place that weakens armor there, and both weak zones were inherited by Arjun. Also side turret composite armor protection should be lenghtened... and that's all, rest of improvements or modifications will be not very deep, and rather simple. Also rifled gun should be replaced by smoothbore one (for example Israeli MG253 or German Rhinemetall RH-120/L55) this will allow to use modern 120mm ammunition with much greater penetration (or other) capabilities than current rifled gun ammunition. And because Indian rifled gun allready use one piece ammo, the only modifications required will be gun mount and ballistic data in fire control system for new ammunition and gun.

However tank after such modifications (especially side turret composite armor lenghtening, so it will at least completely cover crew compartment) will add weight and tank can be more than 60 tons heavy, I don't know if IA wish to have such heavy tank.

 

[venkat]

^^^^wow!!!! There are two classes of Engineers .... civilian Engineers and military Engineers!!!! so you dont belong to either of them....just being civilian you
exhibit so much of knowledge on tanks,definitely you must have grown up as a child among military people handling tanks.....frankly tank armour and tank design excluding its electronics is greek and latin to me.....Damian szanowny Panie, czapki z treści twoich postów, niestety nie jestem w stanie zrozumieć jakość to ....