Indian T-90S a sub-standard tank ?

[Archer]

Removed a copy of the above..

 

[sayareakd]

LOL. Prove it.

85% of the T-90 is made indigenously by a supplier that has made thousands of tanks for the Indian Army. All relevant ToT has been transferred as of 2006.

Let's not bring this into Rafale thread.

T90S armor tech was not given.
Gun tech was not shared.
Fire control computer and its source codes are not shared
Tank ammo tech was not shared.

It does not have APU or proper thermal sight or AC or soft kill systems, even the Invar missile kits found to be defective.

from Russia with love their way of 85% TOT

 

[sayareakd]

p2p if you think tank without gun, armor, fire control and ammo is 85% (minus APU, AC, proper thermal sight and soft kill system) then

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

t-90 was a substandard tank when it was inducted in late nineties and is still a substandard product in 2013.this piece of shit will not even last 1 minute in combat against arjun mk1 let alone mk2.

 

[p2prada]

T90S armor tech was not given.

Was not negotiated for. Rather Indian Army accepted Kanchan armour modules into T-90. ToT was required for the turret design for inserting armor inserts.

Gun tech was not shared.

Was given in 2006.

Fire control computer and its source codes are not shared

Our plan was to have indigenous systems.

Tank ammo tech was not shared.

We don't need it and nobody will give it. Even Israel. We have to build our own, for both T-90 and Arjun and that seems to be happening now.

It does not have APU or proper thermal sight or AC or soft kill systems,

Except for T-90S-Russian and Merkava, no other tanks have used softkill systems.

CAtherine was one of the best Thermal sights available in the world. A generation ahead of anything the Arjun had at the time T-90 was chosen.

even the Invar missile kits found to be defective.

Nonsense. We wouldn't be placing orders after orders if that was the case. Don't read every news paper article as the truth, you are supposed to be a lawyer for Gods sakes.

from Russia with love their way of 85% TOT

Catherines are not indigenously made, only imported. That's about it.

t-90 was a substandard tank when it was inducted in late nineties and is still a substandard product in 2013.this piece of shit will not even last 1 minute in combat against arjun mk1 let alone mk2.

This has been discussed to death and is still repeated. When T-90 was introduced into the Indian army, it was a generation ahead compared to Arjun. Today, Arjun is reaching T-90S levels and maybe T-90MS levels with Arjun Mk2. That's about it.

 

[Bhadra]

Was not negotiated for. Rather Indian Army accepted Kanchan armour modules into T-90. ToT was required for the turret design for inserting armor inserts.



Was given in 2006.



Our plan was to have indigenous systems.



We don't need it and nobody will give it. Even Israel. We have to build our own, for both T-90 and Arjun and that seems to be happening now.



Except for T-90S-Russian and Merkava, no other tanks have used softkill systems.

CAtherine was one of the best Thermal sights available in the world. A generation ahead of anything the Arjun had at the time T-90 was chosen.



Nonsense. We wouldn't be placing orders after orders if that was the case. Don't read every news paper article as the truth, you are supposed to be a lawyer for Gods sakes.



Catherines are not indigenously made, only imported. That's about it.



This has been discussed to death and is still repeated. When T-90 was introduced into the Indian army, it was a generation ahead compared to Arjun. Today, Arjun is reaching T-90S levels and maybe T-90MS levels with Arjun Mk2. That's about it.

Well said and analysed.

Some people here in the forum have made it their business to denigrate "T-90" as they seem to feel it is eating into their Arjun orders. Dr Saraswat himself admitted that Arjun is a heavy tank and needs reduction in weight.

Some people are in love " Ishqa " with Arjun not based on its merits but it happens to have a DRDO tag. Their mindset set can be well described as:

" Tera Ishqa main kaisse chhor doon mere Umar bhar ki Talash hai"

 

[sayareakd]

Was not negotiated for. Rather Indian Army accepted Kanchan armour modules into T-90. ToT was required for the turret design for inserting armor inserts.



Was given in 2006.



Our plan was to have indigenous systems.



We don't need it and nobody will give it. Even Israel. We have to build our own, for both T-90 and Arjun and that seems to be happening now.



Except for T-90S-Russian and Merkava, no other tanks have used softkill systems.

CAtherine was one of the best Thermal sights available in the world. A generation ahead of anything the Arjun had at the time T-90 was chosen.



Nonsense. We wouldn't be placing orders after orders if that was the case. Don't read every news paper article as the truth, you are supposed to be a lawyer for Gods sakes.



Catherines are not indigenously made, only imported. That's about it.



This has been discussed to death and is still repeated. When T-90 was introduced into the Indian army, it was a generation ahead compared to Arjun. Today, Arjun is reaching T-90S levels and maybe T-90MS levels with Arjun Mk2. That's about it.

so what you are saying is that despite we paid for TOT we got screwed big time by Russians. Ok

 

[bose]

If Indian Army is so dertermined to have large number of T-90's than let them have so of T-90MS standard ~ 2000's of them the newer ones and upgraded ones... .But we should not abandon the Arjun Mark-II at the same time... also let us have 500's of Arjun - II too this should be made clear to Army... Arjun's with improvements in later versions will be Indian plus not open to restrictions / blackmailing in the time of war...

 

[pmaitra]

" Tera Ishqa main kaisse chhor doon mere Umar bhar ki Talash hai"

Very nice.


Poetry apart, given the new Arms Transfer Treaty, it is more imperative for India to back its domestic arms industries. While it might not be very relevant in this case, since Russia has abstained from this treaty, we will not be buying weapons from Russia all the time.

 

[sayareakd]

Well said and analysed.

Some people here in the forum have made it their business to denigrate "T-90" as they seem to feel it is eating into their Arjun orders. Dr Saraswat himself admitted that Arjun is a heavy tank and needs reduction in weight.

Some people are in love " Ishqa " with Arjun not based on its merits but it happens to have a DRDO tag. Their mindset set can be well described as:

" Tera Ishqa main kaisse chhor doon mere Umar bhar ki Talash hai"

you know what is the funny part, even after trial with 14..................yeah 14 tanks comparative trial, Indian army cant find fault with Arjun tank, they are mum about the outcome of trial, if arjun was defeated they would along with you would be shouting at the top of your voice saying 'Arjun has failed the trial'.

So much so, for love foreign maal, slave mentality.

 

[p2prada]

so what you are saying is that despite we paid for TOT we got screwed big time by Russians. Ok

How did you come to the conclusion, I was not even remotely close to it.

We never got screwed over in the T-90 deal. Rather it was one of our best deals with the Russians. That is why it has seen 3 repeat orders and we may even order more tanks in the process, beyond the 1657 contracted for.

It is an excellent tank with excellent product support. Most of the inadeqaucies on the tank are more in relation to our requirement than it has to do with the Russians, which are not really an inadequacy since the tanks works.

It is simple, if we buy something the first time and then place repeat orders, it is a first class system.

It was the same with Krasnopol and Tungska.

 

[p2prada]

you know what is the funny part, even after trial with 14..................yeah 14 tanks comparative trial, Indian army cant find fault with Arjun tank, they are mum about the outcome of trial, if arjun was defeated they would along with you would be shouting at the top of your voice saying 'Arjun has failed the trial'.

So much so, for love foreign maal, slave mentality.

When you go out to buy a car, or even vegetable, do you buy what you see or do you wait 10 years and then buy what will come at the time.

When T-90 was chosen there was no Arjun. Arjun came after 2008, and the tank was at T-90 level with digital electronics and some extras like Hunter-Killer ability and APU. Apart from that it was a decade too late.

In the comparative trials, the trials had nothing to do with the T-90, it was more to do with how the Arjun will fit into the army's doctrine. Meaning it was a test for Arjun. All we know is Arjun was on par with the T-90 on some parameters, but we don't know whether the tank actually fit into the Army's doctrine.

This has nothing to do with slave mentality. It has more to do with operational requirement and the availability of the equipment at the time. Arjun simply did not exist when the T-90 was chosen.

 

[shiphone]

I remember some articles about the problem before...
---------------------------------------
Broadsword BLOG

28 November 2011 T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall

A decade after Russia contracted to provide technology for building 1,000 T-90S tanks in India, just 150 tanks have actually been built. Pictured here, completed T-90S tanks at Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF), Avadi

Then HVF officials discovered that Russia had withheld key T-90S technologies without valid reason. This included technology for crucial components like the tank's main gun and a key section of the turret armour. When New Delhi demanded those technologies, Moscow blandly responded that they were secret. To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.

But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: "We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia."

28 November 2011 Part II: Army's delayed orders halts T-90 tank

Now, 11 years after the contract was signed, production is hitting its stride. HVF says 24 tanks were delivered in 2009-10; 51 in 2010-11; it will be 50 this year; and annual production will hit 100 next year (i.e. 2012-13). But there are no army orders beyond that.

the following on more T90S order with OFB might be under the 1000 Licenced built contract structure besides the first batch of 300.

 

[p2prada]

I remember some articles about the problem before...
---------------------------------------
Broadsword BLOG

28 November 2011 T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall

Some of that news turned out to be outdated. The same blog rectified it when the journo went to HVF himself.

He later pointed out that all the ToT issues were rectified.

the following on more T90S order with OFB might be under the 1000 Licenced built contract structure besides the first batch of 300.

They are talking about an internal contract (it is not exactly called a contract) between the Army and HVF to deliver the 2nd batch of 300 out of the 1000 licenses bought from Russia.

At the time of writing the article, this contract wasn't signed. Now, we do not really know what's happening.

The delays in ToT was because in 2005-06 the Russian govt had to amend their laws stating the extent of ToT transfer since the Soviet times.

The indigenous equivalent developed by OFB turned out to be substandard. The barrels were replaced on delivered T-90s after the guns were manufactured based on Russian ToT.

India, Russia resolve T90 technology transfer issues - Indian Express

Look at the date: 2008, compare that to the less relevant information from Ajai Shukla in 2011. It is simply flawed, jingoistic and nationalistic journalism on his part.

More news on the same,
Russia to deliver T-90 gun barrel technology

I remember articles about Catherine failing even in 2011 when the issue was actually fixed half a decade ago, right after it actually failed in 2004. The Russian swallowed the losses and delivered tropicalized replacements in 2006 for the batch of tanks with the older version of Catherine. Once the teething issues were rectified, follow on orders came, a 300+ order followed by a 1000 production order.

 

[sayareakd]

So with encloser, wheels, track, radio, NBC, engine ,transmission and machine gun throw in few morre items if you like these things we were already making with T72M.

So what implies is that we paid huge tax payers money for something which we already had and didnt get TOT for main parts of tank or its ammo. As IA found the tank fit as per you for their doctrine, but no statement in your post if it was as per GSQR or not.
Therefore this half empty tank for which we ready had tech from T72M without gun, armor, fire control, tank ammo is best deal we ever got.

BTW no BMS type of system on it.

 

[p2prada]

So with encloser, wheels, track, radio, NBC, engine ,transmission and machine gun throw in few morre items if you like these things we were already making with T72M.

Sure. The MKI as to the Su-27, the T-90S Bhisma as to the T-72. Who's complainin'?

So what implies is that we paid huge tax payers money for something which we already had and didnt get TOT for main parts of tank or its ammo.

T-90 is significantly different from the T-72 in many aspects. T-72 is an early 3rd gen tank with analog equipment, similar to what the Arjun had in 2000. T-90 came with all digital electronics and electrical mechanics.

You still don't get it, there was nothing even close to something like the T-90 on the Arjun at the time. Arjun went through a major electronics overhaul in 2005 when the old analog equipment was replaced with digital electronics from Israel, after all the sanctions were lifted.

As IA found the tank fit as per you for their doctrine, but no statement in your post if it was as per GSQR or not.

Yes, it does. Or else we wouldn't have ordered 350 more after the first 350 and then a 1000 more and then plans for another 350 more.

Repeat orders after repeat orders followed by corps level exercises suggests only one thing, it fit and fits damn well.

Therefore this half empty tank for which we ready had tech from T72M without gun, armor, fire control, tank ammo is best deal we ever got.

The difference between the T-72M and the T-90S is the gun, armor, fire control and even the tank ammo. So, yeah, the deal was cheap and came with a lot of punch.

BTW no BMS type of system on it.

Already installed and went through scores of exercises.

 

[Patriot]

So with encloser, wheels, track, radio, NBC, engine ,transmission and machine gun throw in few morre items if you like these things we were already making with T72M.

So what implies is that we paid huge tax payers money for something which we already had and didnt get TOT for main parts of tank or its ammo. As IA found the tank fit as per you for their doctrine, but no statement in your post if it was as per GSQR or not.
Therefore this half empty tank for which we ready had tech from T72M without gun, armor, fire control, tank ammo is best deal we ever got.

BTW no BMS type of system on it.

It was never tested under so called Indian conditions before the signing the deal. T-90 as expert say may be good tank but not not good enough for Indian condition.

On ther hand Arjun was made to be danced under each & every city & villages under different seasons of India [ Just analogy].

Anyway T-90 deals has done one good thing it has many Indians rich.

 

[p2prada]

It was never tested under so called Indian conditions before the signing the deal. T-90 as expert say may be good tank but not not good enough for Indian condition.

Not true. T-90s underwent tests in Indian conditions before the deal was signed.

Anyway T-90 deals has done one good thing it has many Indians rich.

Perhaps, but also powerful.

 

[sayareakd]

P2P you didnt get what i said, even after paying huge sum of money we didnt get armor, gun, fire control, ammo. (APU, soft kill system, BMS, AC, Thermal sight etc were never part of the contract) so what we paid for we already got with light modifications from T72 assembly line. So nothing pathbreaking in terms of complete TOT but we got looted by Russians.

 

[sayareakd]

On ther hand Arjun was made to be danced under each & every city & villages under different seasons of India [ Just analogy].

yeah and they got microscope to check each and every part of Arjun, for T90S they agreed with what ever Russians said in their presentation :thumb: