Indian T-90S a sub-standard tank ?

[Damian]

^^^^wow!!!! There are two classes of Engineers .... civilian Engineers and military Engineers!!!! so you dont belong to either of them....just being civilian you
exhibit so much of knowledge on tanks,definitely you must have grown up as a child among military people handling tanks.....frankly tank armour and tank design excluding its electronics is greek and latin to me.....

My uncle was a tank crew member in Polish Army, but I never was in military unit (when I was a kid he allready left army), my father was radar operator during Cold War (he also left army before I was born).

In reality my knowledge is from books, documents and discussions with many people with knowledge greater than my own. Let's bring here such persons as Paul Lakowski that have really great knowledge about tank armor designs and materials, he done many really interesting estimations based on scientific research. And there are many more, like James Warford, Ssnake, Pawel Przezdziecki or Vasily Fofanov.

Damian szanowny Panie, czapki z treści twoich postów, niestety nie jestem w stanie zrozumieć jakość to

Allmost good translation, but it seems that google translator as allways messed something, the last part is a bit messed up and not understandable.

 

[p2prada]

Damian !!! please give your address and telephone number. i will pass it on to Arjun designers to appoint you as consultant ,if you and your govt have no problems!!!!:thumb:

There is nothing wrong with our designers. It is just that Arjun is a vintage design by itself. Had it been successful in the mid 90s as originally planned it would have been a kick azz tank at that time.

Same with LCA. If it is redesigned today from scratch, it would be a way, way better aircraft.

^^^^wow!!!! There are two classes of Engineers .... civilian Engineers and military Engineers!!!! so you dont belong to either of them....just being civilian you
exhibit so much of knowledge on tanks,definitely you must have grown up as a child among military people handling tanks.....frankly tank armour and tank design excluding its electronics is greek and latin to me.....Damian szanowny Panie, czapki z treści twoich postów, niestety nie jestem w stanie zrozumieć jakość to ....

He is an academic. There are a lot of people within the ministry who are academics too.

Another experience that I know about. My friend designs processors for AMD. I threw physics questions regarding Quantum Tunneling to him. He told me he knows nothing of the subject since he is only a Design Engineer. He also told me that he doubts whether there is anybody in AMD India who can answer my questions and that I must direct it to Academics with PhDs in the subject. He only has a Masters in VLSI.

 

[Damian]

Mr Damian I think I can EXPLAIN your obsession
with India and the Arjun Tank ; though you are a Polish National

Mr Damian You must have been working for Bumar company when it was executing
Indian Army's order of 1.2 billion dollars made in 2008

And maybe you pissed off an Indian official who complained and you lost your JOB

What?! I never worked for Bumar, neither anyone would be fired from job in Poland because he pissed off someone in other country, do You even know what would happen in my country if someone would be fired because of such idiotic reason? Worker unions would make hell on earth if such thing would happen.

OTHERWISE Please explain your OBSESSION with India and Arjun Tank

What obsession? Ah I get, it, when You encounter someone who actually have knowledge about something and have a critical view about something You like to call it an obsession?

Why You just don't accept the simple fact that Arjun design have a weak sides that are not present in any other design, neither NATO one, neither Soviet/Russian/Ukrainian one. Why You don't accept this fact? Because Your pseudo patriotism won't let You?

In my country it is even seen as a good thing if people discuss every weapon systems designs and point out their weak sides when compared to other foreing weapon systems. This provides needed data to improve our own designs. This is typical for western countries, observe, collect data, make constructive ciriticism and improve, instead of that idiotic pseudo patriotism and defending each indigenous design because it is indigenous and "it should be" defended. It is the most stupid approach as it can be.

For such You among others of such pseudo patriots are responsible for lack of progress, lack of improvements, and any possible design flaws that can end in deaths of soldiers. And I say this as someone who like Indians and India, and see India as an possible ally against common enemies, be it military (Islamic terrorists) or economic/possible military (PRC and similiar).

Ok I gave You a good example how it looks like in my country.

When some guys started to create ideas that WPB Anders in it's light tank version should replace most of our MBT's (not matters most of them are outdated T-72M1), people just gather around on forums, and started to analize it's design. It was obvious that from pure armor protection point of view, WPB Anders can't be a good replacement for a normal MBT, these critics were accepted by most people, as well as a point that even in peace support operations or assymetric conflicts there are more and more modern RPG's capable to easy destroy such vehicles.

So general consensus after analizing and making constructive criticism is that WPB Anders is great vehicle, well designed to replace lighter armored vehicles like BMP-1, but is not suited to be replacement even for out oldest MBT's.

Everything is based on these terms, design something but in the same time, collect data about foreing developments, analize, compare, make improvements to own design and if it is not possible, and indigenous design don't meet some standards screw it and do something else.

In fact there are many people in my country saying that despite a fact that we have great AFV's designers, we should leave alone works on our indigenous AFV's and simply buy a license that will be cheaper and faster and we will just buy off the shelf, well designed, tested product that will meet our needs, and we can eventually play with indigenous designs later when more money for R&D will be avaiable.

BTW look at USA and a guy called "Sparky" he is an ex soldier (USMC) thart was kick off from USMC because of his incompetence, and what he is doing right now? Spreading total BS that his beloved M113 is the best AFV in the world, that old cast homogenous steel armor of M60 tanks is better than composite armor, and he criticize every new vehicle fielded by US Armed Forces (he would be happy if US Army would replace M1 Abrams, M2 Bradley and Stryker FoV's with M60 and M113), and he belive that he is a patriot and his ideas would save life of US Soldiers... but we sane people see that he is just a pure idiot that should be shoot in the head for his ideas.

 

[p2prada]

For such You among others of such pseudo patriots are responsible for lack of progress, lack of improvements, and any possible design flaws that can end in deaths of soldiers.

This is what I have been screaming about since day 1. Unlike most countries, we have real enemies who want to kill us.

The sh!t coming out of DRDO is not enough for facing such enemies. The fact is most of DRDO's work is centered around programs whose R&D phase started in the 70s and 80s. Outside of our missile and maybe radar R&D, everything is pre-1990s.

Most countries have raced past us and even their export equipment is superior to the best we have.

Heck most people don't understand that even the current version of F-22 is obsolete. Regardless of the fact that it is still relevant it's technology base is from the same time period as the LCA. But patriotism blinds them and it becomes so meaningless when people don't know how to react to it apart from being overly emotional about it.

Heck when the Army is asking for a 4th gen tank, instead there are people who want the Army to go for a tank designed in the 80s. Is there a reason for it? The answer is blind patriotism, nothing else. Literally nothing else.

DRDO's profit margin can eat sh!t. Build relevant stuff or die. No wonder people from the establishment still laugh at DRDO.

 

[Damian]

P2P but this is a well known problem for countries like my own. The problem is that DRDO as like Bumar in my country is a state owned company or organization. It is obvious that state owned company/organization won't do it's best to make best product they can and manufacture it in resonable price level.

I give You one example, Bumar is currently the biggest military industry company in Poland but... it's not the best one, in fact many smaller, completely private companys are in much better financial condition than Bumar, for example HSW - Huta Stalowa Wola that is making artillery systems for our army like Krab, Langusta or Homar. Or Radmor that is specialized in electronics, radars etc.

The real issue of India is not that there is DRDO, but because DRDO is state owned. And there is a simple thing to do to improve situation in India, state should end funding of DRDO, make it private owned, and when IA want for example new tank, make a competition where Indian companys will compete against each other, and more, Indian goverment should invite foreing companys with their products to also compete. And Army after tests will just choose the best options they will have. And that's all, and if Inidan companys will loose? Then it is good thing, this will make them rething what they done, what should be improve, and maybe next time they will win such competitions.

 

[pankaj nema]

In fact It is Russia which is worried about the Arjun Mk 2
Because Arjun Mk 1 defeated T 90 at the comparative trials

Broadsword: Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90

And hence they are offering us MORE TOT in case of our T 90 Contract and are also
wooing us with lower prices

Livefist: Reloaded Arjun Killed At Birth?

 

[Damian]

In fact It is Russia which is worried about the Arjun Mk 2
Because Arjun Mk 1 defeated T 90 at the comparative trials

Broadsword: Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90

And hence they are offering us MORE TOT in case of our T 90 Contract and are also
wooing us with lower prices

Livefist: Reloaded Arjun Killed At Birth?

And why Russia should be worried? They allready sold India licence for T-90 so India can manufacture these tanks on it's own, so what Russians have to this? In reality nothing.

The problem is that people like You belive in everything that is in such news but... did You ask what were conditions of such tests? If these tests were fair? How many repeats of a single tests were done in the same condition to really gather the data needed for analize to say which tank in reality performed better. Did crews were trained on the same level? Or maybe someone cheated?

Did You asked such questions? or this is the long living tradition in all countries that some people belive in anythigh goverment officials will say to them. I hope You know that all of these is merely political issue connected with national pride, and in reality Arjun might have been not better than T-90 but to maintain that national pride, goverment officials decided to just lie?

You know, someone said "everybody lies" and this is one of the biggest truths for humanity, everybody lies, even goverment that officialy want to do everything best for people.

 

[pankaj nema]

Mr Damian Russia has been fleecing us with the T 90 deal
on one pretext or another

Earlier they refused to transfer technology and then troubled with the APFSDS ammunition
also Broadsword: T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall

 

[Damian]

Mr Damian Russia has been fleecing us with the T 90 deal
on one pretext or another

Earlier they refused to transfer technology and then troubled with the APFSDS ammunition
also Broadsword: T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall

So what? This is their product and this is their right to form terms of deal as they wish to. What do You expect? That Russians should manufacture ammunition and whole tanks for India for free? They want to make money, if this is the price they want, then ok, You can allways buy tanks from someone else. I bet that US would be happy to manufacture for India 1000+ completely new M1A2's, and they would probably not done any problems if Indian goverment would wish to place Kanchan armor instead of US made Export Armor Package in these tanks.

Or You can find any other country that is big manufacturer of tanks that would be happy to make deal with India.

But yeah I get it, the easiest way is to blame Russians or anyone else, not Yourself right?

And the best part of this article is about Indian made ammunition falling short... well what do they expected? If ballistic data in FCS is different than ballistics of used ammunition it is normal situation. This is why You allways use ammunition that have it's ballistic data in the FCS computer memory.

This is really such hard to understand for some people?

 

[pankaj nema]

Mr Damian we are not blaming Russia

They are only being business minded

SO Now when they see that Arjun mk2 will
further cap or reduce their sales of T 90 then they have immediately started
WOOING our officials and offering more TOT and reducing prices

It is but natural that Arjun mk2 will be much more improved than Arjun Mk 1

DRDO is surely making progress on Arjun

Just wait for June end you will get all reports about how Arjun mk 2 fared in its trials

 

[pankaj nema]

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/11/part-ii-armys-delayed-orders-halts-t-90.html

May be Indian Govt and Indian Army are hoping for more success on Arjun Mk 2

SO they are GOING slow with the T 90 deal

And looking by the Russian reactions it seems that we can have the BEST of both the Tanks

An IMPROVED and sweeter Contact for the T 90 and a MORE lethal Arjun mk 2

 

[Singh]

Pankaj Nema, it appears you have not fully understood what others are saying on this thread.

 

[Damian]

IMHO Arjun Mk2 after what I seen is not a big improvement ofer Mk1 in case of armor protection. In fact there are so many strange design solutions shown on these graphics that I wonder who actually done that... a 5 years old kid?

So many ballistic gaps in ERA placement is one example, idiotic placement of radar is second (why even tank is needing a radar?! AFAIK Only Americans were trying to integrate small, very small radar in to the main sight of tank during CATTB program).

Besides Mk2 is not really redesigned, upgraded tank, it is not even comparable to KWS-2 program for Leopard 2 upgrades, just compare Leopard 2A4 and Leopard 2A5 that was effect of KWS-2 program.

I wonder if India would not end better if they would or just buy T-90MS licence, or start a new program for new MBT but in a form of free competition where everyone besides DRDO can participate.

Just wait for June end you will get all reports about how Arjun mk 2 fared in its trials

The problem is that seeing how all these reports are done, I don't specially belive them... these reports are typical PR talk, without any precise data, and are useless for me... but they can be atractive for laymans.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The problem is that people like You belive in everything that is in such news but... did You ask what were conditions of such tests? If these tests were fair? How many repeats of a single tests were done in the same condition to really gather the data needed for analize to say which tank in reality performed better. Did crews were trained on the same level? Or maybe someone cheated?.

The trials were at fair level, Each teams have same tasks each team completed there tasks, Both team crews were good with there tanks,

what condition you are talking about ?

----------------------------------------

Its easy to believe critics but hard to understand its success ?

 

[Damian]

The trials were at fair level, Each teams have same tasks each team completed there tasks, Both team crews were good with there tanks,

what condition you are talking about ?

How do we know that these trails were fair? You was there and controled everything that it will be fair?

And conditions are different, for example if LRF can be used or not, what ammunition will be used or not, if they can use thermal sights or not, what are ranges, what is temperature of environment, ammunition, if there is wind or not, if yes it is strong or not, did tests were repeated several times in the same conditions. Etc. etc. etc.

Because it is easy to say tank x is better than tank y without providing any informations about tests conditions.

Its easy to believe critics but hard to understand its success ?

I seen to much to belive in fairly tails.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

IMHO Arjun Mk2 after what I seen is not a big improvement ofer Mk1 in case of armor protection. In fact there are so many strange design solutions shown on these graphics that I wonder who actually done that... a 5 years old kid?.

There are many improvement done to increase its preform ace, But yes the deign issue is overlooked..

These improvements are done by request by Army each and every single improvement, Nothing by own..



Not to mention the people involve are quite educated which takes years to have, Certainly not kids..

 

[pankaj nema]

Pankaj Nema, it appears you have not fully understood what others are saying on this thread.

This thread ie T90 and the Arjun thread are basically complementary to each other

After a few pages they become similar ie Arjun and DRDO bashing threads

But having closed down our aircraft industry and THEN restarted after 30 years has led to the LCA quagmire
from which are still unable to come out .

SO SHOULD we suffer the same fate with Battle Tanks

Comparatively speaking Arjun is much more successful than LCA

 

[Kunal Biswas]

How do we know that these trails were fair? You was there and controled everything that it will be fair?

And conditions are different, for example if LRF can be used or not, what ammunition will be used or not, if they can use thermal sights or not, what are ranges, what is temperature of environment, ammunition, if there is wind or not, if yes it is strong or not, did tests were repeated several times in the same conditions. Etc. etc. etc.

Have you got idea what people do in Military firing range ?

How tests are conducted ?

 

[Damian]

There are many improvement done to increase its preform ace, But yes the deign issue is overlooked..

These improvements are done by request by Army each and every single improvement, Nothing by own..

Not to mention the people involve are quite educated which takes years to have, Certainly not kids..

Wait a second, so designers knowing the best what are strong and weak points in their designs, don't do anything on their own to improve them?! This is ridicoulus! Especially when we compare this to passion and dedication to their work of such designers like Aleksander Morozov or Israel Tal that were improving their designs on their own, not because someone ordered them to do so.

Have you got idea what people do in Military firing range ?

How tests are conducted ?

I know that a single test is not enough to make any conclusions, neither official statements should be belive.

I give You a good example. Official French sources says that Leclerc tank have modular armor. But just take a look on every single photo I provided in different threat, in all these photos Leclerc do not have modular armor visible, only standard wedled construction... so we should belive official statements or not?

 

[methos]

The problem with the trials is: We don't know any details.

Was the armour tested?
If the armour was tested, what exactly was tested? Weak places only? General armour layout? Did the army include ERA?
Was the armour penetration tested? Which ammunition was used then?
Was firing on static targets from a moving vehicle tested?
Was firing on moving targets from a static vehicle tested?
Was firing on moving targets from a moving vehicle tested?
What size did the targets have?
Was one of the tanks favoured due to the natural conditions (like weather, terrain)?

What are the exact results?
To outgun and outrun another tank it does not mean that you performed better in every aspect, but just in some. In the end the lined Broadsword blog mentions "the results are still officially secret", but at the same time claims "But Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter" - if the second quote is also true, then some Indians should be accused of breaking secrecy.

The Arjun could have managed to outgun and outrun the T-90 on some very special scenarios (e.g. firing at a 2 x 2 m sized static target 3 m above the ground level from 2,000 m distance without moving and driving a 400 km paved road as fast as possible would be some special scenario which would say nothing about real combat performance). The Arjun versus T-90 trial could aslo be one new member on the long list of manipulated trials (which happened also in the NATO or the Soviet Union).

It also depends on the rating system. Of 71 American requirements, the German Leopard 2AV managed to fullfill 61, while the XM1 fullfilled only 48. The Americans didn't like that very much, so in the end the U.S. decided to use a different rating system (not rating single points but instead rating "groups" of properties), which lead the XM1 to fullfill 16 requirement groups, while the Leopard 2AV fullfilled only 6.

I give You a good example. Official French sources says that Leclerc tank have modular armor. But just take a look on every single photo I provided in different threat, in all these photos Leclerc do not have modular armor visible, only standard wedled construction... so we should belive official statements or not?

Modular armour inside the steel boxes. As one the Leopard 2.