Indian submarine force depleting?

[notinlove]

I have a question to most Indians here: Since you already successfully made a nuclear-powered ballistic missile Submarine why don't you have any plans in designing conventional/nuclear powered attack submarines as such? Not SSBNs but regular attack submarines. Doesn't it really sound amusing that while Indian engineers achieved the tougher technology part, the simpler part is yet unknown to them?

Its really a single word answer and that is PRIORITY ,you have to look at it from india's perspective, we have neighbours who threaten us with nuclear strike at the drop of a hat,Our topmost priority as of today is to gain a credible nuclear deterrence by completing our nuke triad , we can wait for a ssn but not for a ssbn hence we decided to build that first.unconventional yes , senseless no. , and yes we do have plans to build ssn's too.

 

[Armand2REP]

Now its waiting to test a reactor from does not have a reactor, wonderful.

A reactor has been built, whether it is installed is the question. It doesn't take over a year to start trials

 

[kuku]

A reactor has been built, whether it is installed is the question. It doesn't take over a year to start trials

The submarine is sealed shut, thats according to all the defense correspondents who went to see it.

You dont cut up a new vessel to install a reactor, if the reactor was not installed they would have waited for it to be installed.

The delay that some people so eagerly call a sign of no reactor inside is for completing all the various checks required to make a first in class submarine safe to operate. Quite similar observations were made with HAL Tejas program, that its incapable to go over a certain g force, that it is incapable of a certain angle of attack etc. etc., which was funny as the development program had to open up the airframe and the flight control to all the different parameters one by one.

 

[plugwater]

Desperate step? Govt OKs 2000cr more for Scorpenes

NEW DELHI: In a bid to rescue India's underwater combat arm from sinking any further, the government has approved a huge cost escalation in the already mammoth Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six French Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai.

The Cabinet Committee on Security has given the formal nod to pay around Rs 2,000 crore more to French company DCNS\Armaris to get MPM (MDL procured material) packages for the submarines. These are crucial since they include all major systems connected with sensors, propulsion and the like for the vessels.

Despite both China and Pakistan rapidly bolstering their submarine fleets, the Scorpene project (P-75), under which one vessel was to roll every year from 2012 onwards, is already running over two years behind schedule, as was first reported by TOI.

Moreover, the government continues to dither over the proposed Rs 30,000 crore programme, called Project-75I, for the second line of next-generation submarines despite Navy pressing the panic buttons for its quick finalisation.

The main reason for the Scorpene project's delay has been the protracted negotiations for the MPM packages, with DCNS hiking its demand from around 400 million Euros to 700 million Euros for them.

This issue should have been sorted out when the Scorpene project — MDL is fabricating the hulls but has nothing to put inside them at present — was finalised in October 2005 itself. "It was a major goof-up by the defence ministry," said a source.

The main Rs 6,135 crore contract at that time was inked with M/s Armaris (DCN-Thales joint venture) for transfer of technology, combat systems and construction design, while the second one for Rs 1,062 crore was with M/s MBDA for sea-skimming Exocet missiles. The third Rs 5,888-crore contract was signed with MDL for indigenous submarine construction, with another Rs 3,553 crore earmarked for taxes and Rs 2,160 crore towards other items to be acquired during the project.

CAG reports, too, have blasted the government for taking nine years to finalise the Scorpene deal, which led to increase in the project cost by Rs 2,838 crore. Navy, on its part, has reason to be worried over the delays in P-75 as well as P-75I since it will be left with only nine out of its present fleet of 16 diesel-electric submarines (10 Russian Kilo-class, four German HDW and two virtually obsolete Foxtrot) by 2012-2013.

The number may further dip to just five by 2014-2015.

This when Pakistan is now looking to induct three advanced Type-214 German submarines, equipped with AIP (air-independent propulsion), after inducting three French Agosta-90B submarines, with the last one PNS Hamza even having AIP. China, in turn, has a staggering 62 submarines, with around 10 of them being nuclear-propelled, and at least one Xia-class and two Jin-class being armed with long-range nuclear missiles.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...cr-more-for-Scorpenes/articleshow/5652936.cms

 

[sathya]

i think we should build another 3 scorpene with AIP following the 6 previous order. And continue next submarine from there..

 

[bengalraider]

i think we should build another 3 scorpene with AIP following the 6 previous order. And continue next submarine from there..

I beg to differ . We need more submarines fast heck we needed them yesterday. What we need to do is order six S-1000's from navantia and rubin with two being built in spain while simultaneously two are built in russia, the last two can be built at L&T's new submarine yard near Hazira or even at Vizag, mazagon docks cannot do shit until the P-17's and the Scorpenes are in the water.The above shall ensure that even if we goof up in india(ala scorpene) we still get four new subs in a two to three years from the russians and the spanish.

 

[pankaj nema]

There is a saying in Navy circles globally " the navies of the world DO NOT talk about their submarines."
I read this in an interview with Navy chief. when and where I dont remember.

But the point I am making is that
1. we had a high level technology absorbtion programme under a rear admiral
for the HDW and Kilo class submarines.
2. we have made some submarines under licence. the programme was officially over but
some more could have been made
3. we have many shipyards. There is even an L and T one in hazira where Arihants siblings are coming up.
4. More Russian submarines must have been acquired.
5 If we can fabricate a 6000 tonne Arihant then why not 1500 tonne kilo class.

16 submarines are way too less and it can not be true. There must be more in "reserves"

 

[Rage]

The PAC has blitzed the Govurnment for its 9-year delay on the Scorpenes contract. More:


Scorpene deal: PAC slams defence ministry

Posted On: 10-Mar-2010 09:02:32 By: Ashwini Kumar


Slamming the Defence Ministry over the nine-year delay in awarding contract to French firm Thales to build six Scorpene submarines in Mumbai, a Parliamentary Committee on Wednesday said the indecisiveness resulted in cost overruns and undue favour to the vendor, besides adversely impacting Navy's operational preparedness.

Referring to a Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) report for 2008 that rapped the Ministry for the delay, the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) also noted that this led to a cost escalation of the submarines by more than Rs 2,800 crore.

The CAG report had observed that "despite the Indian Navy's depleting force level, the Ministry took nine years to finalise a contract for the construction of the six submarines." The PAC report in this regard was tabled in both Houses of Parliament today.

The committee noted that due to the delay in the finalisation of the contract for as long as three years from 2002 to 2005, there had been an escalation in the price of submarines by more than Rs 2,800 crore and an additional Euro 27.05 million commitment on the procurement of missiles for the naval vessel.

"Such indecisiveness and systemic flaws on the procurement of submarines led to time and cost overrun and undue favour to the vendor besides adversely impacting Navy's operational preparedness," the report said.

The report said the cost overrun was primarily due to escalations of exchange rate variations and increase in cost of missiles, despite a discount of 1.03 per cent by the vendor.

Seeking an explanation from the defence ministry for the delay in finalising the contract and for cost overruns, the PAC also expressed astonishment over its "inability" to quantify the exact financial loss from the Scorpene deal, also known as Project-75.

Expressing concern over the Ministry accepting an "unproven" design of Scorpene, the report said "deviations in respect to prescribed parameters such as stability, speed, endurance, noise levels, manoeuvring performances of the submarine cannot be ruled out" and asked theMinistry to compel Thales to take corrective steps. Referring to the Ministry's reply attributing the delay on forwarding of Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) note to Finance Ministry for examination and reference to Central Vigilance Commission (CVC), followed by several rounds of deliberations, the report said the process was "too cumbersome" and asked it to dispense with the CVC route.

"It (CVC route) is unnecessary and totally uncalled for and resultantly leads to unacceptable delays, as has happened in the instant case," it added. Noting thatthe construction of the Scorpene at the Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks was very slow and consequently the delivery could be delayed, the PAC said theMinistry should have taken into account the "teething problems and the time taken for absorption of technology" before awarding contracts and indigenisation.

What caused concern in the PAC was the "systemic deficiencies", as corroborated by the defence secretary, who talked about "problems in the system, mindset and in the whole process" of procurement.


http://www.mynews.in/News/Scorpene_deal_PAC_slams_defence_ministry_N40348.html

 

[LETHALFORCE]

http://sify.com/news/pak-navy-to-ac...-by-india-news-international-kd0mOfcieid.html


Pak Navy to acquire seven submarines to meet challenges posed by India
2010-03-26 12:50:00

The Pakistan Navy is likely to acquire seven 'conventional' submarines and is in discussions with China and France for finalising the deal.

According to sources, negotiations are also on with Germany to purchase three U-214 type submarines.

Sources within the Pakistan Navy said that a high level naval delegation would be visiting France next week to finalise the deal with French DCN Company for Marline submarines.

Islamabad is deeply interested in acquiring four Chinese Yuan and Song Class and three French Marlin class latest diesel electric conventional submarines in a bid to meet the challenge from the rapidly expanding Indian navy, The Dawn quoted sources, as saying.

It is pertinent to mention here that a German company-HDW had drawn up technical specifications for three U-214 submarines, and a billion dollar contract was almost finalised, but the deal could not materialise due to some unknown reasons. (ANI)

 

[rapidkiss]

A quick question: how many nuclear submarines are there serving in the Indian Navy? Thanks in advance.

 

[bengalraider]

A quick question: how many nuclear submarines are there serving in the Indian Navy? Thanks in advance.

this is such an inane question that i am not even going to answer you , please use google!