Indian submarine force depleting?

StealthSniper

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Sure, you find that link. My information came off the CAG report.
Well first off if everything did go to plan regarding the refit plan of the Navy we shouldn't have any major problems with our submarines (Kilo and Type 209) until 2020. Secondly I have read the CAG report a while back but haven't seen any other evidence from anywhere else that their is a major problem with the Refits and the submarines itself. I will also say though that I wouldn't be surprised if we have delayed or not done things on time.

So revise my prior number of 9 to less than 8.
Right now we have 2 submarines that don't have refit done because they are not needed yet and 8 other submarines that have refit done that are in the sea. So I don't understand how you get the number 9 or 8 when we have 4 other submarines that are having refit done and will be in the water soon, or already are. I didn't see anything to say that the submarines are in trouble to back up the CAG. Maybe India is keeping a secret on it's submarine status.

The person who made the article was looking at the CAG report, and it is correct. India's submarine fleet is in shambles.
Well the CAG is a good enough source to get the information but if everything went according to the plan like I mentioned in my previous post then it didn't look that bad for our submarine force. I wonder what went wrong and I am going to see if I can get more info.

France doesn't have any problem helping Brazil make an SSN. I really don't see your point when Russia is only leasing it for the price it costs to build one. RusNav can't afford to operate or maintain it. It really is a stroke of genius by Rosboronexport, they get $1 billion in cash, they get to sell IN millions in parts and they get it back in good working condition, just brilliant!

Russia could also not offer a submarine in the first place and then we wouldn't have anything also. And how are you sure that we won't just buy it outright at the end of the lease? Also Russia can afford to operate and maintain a new Borei class submarine and they are building more in the coming years. You have to pay to play and even if the NERPA is expensive it's worth it (it's better than a Chinese nuclear sub, and just as good as the American attack submarines). Not bad for a country that didn't have anything like a NERPA to begin with.


Actually $1 billion is cheap if you can increase your clout in the Indian ocean and all of a sudden give something the Americans can't even mess with.
 

bengalraider

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Did you read the report, its source says that he is speculating.

You actually think they will close a hull and then cut it open to install a reactor, quite amazing.

Besides that you should not trust what you read in the media without analysis.
The operative word here is "WORKING" Arihant has a reactor inside of that there is no doubt but whether it has gone critical or not yet is another story altogether.I however doubt whether the IN would make the real detail public as well.
 

kuku

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The operative word here is "WORKING" Arihant has a reactor inside of that there is no doubt but whether it has gone critical or not yet is another story altogether.I however doubt whether the IN would make the real detail public as well.
Its a first in class nuclear submarine, the purpose of the program is to build the required facilities in India to keep on upgrading the program as it goes along, this requires several facilities from Public and Private firms, this alone is a complicated process.

The reactor itself has to pass through several steps in order to get the required safety clearance from different organisations.

Once this is done the submarine has to fine tune along its entire operational requirements from the systems to the weapons.

When all the required processes finish the program will graduate to the next in class which from what i gather will be two programs, one to build a dedicated SSN another to build an SSBN.

Its a long way to go.

The fact that information is difficult to come by represents another challenge, that of transparency in the program, with no declared dates to achieve milestones there can be no accountability (at least the public would never know about it).
 

neo29

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probably old news and post, but facts on why scorpene is delaying and probably why scorpene should not been chosen as second line submarines . Basically poor defense planning.

Defence ministry's blunder delays Scorpene submarine deal


An air of resignation hangs over the East Yard, a giant workshop shed in Mumbai's [ Images ] Mazagaon Dock Limited, where six Scorpene submarines are to be fabricated for the Indian Navy. Two years ago, when we visited this facility, it hummed with activity as welders assembled the hull of the first Scorpene, which was to join the Indian Navy in 2012.

Since then, rumours of delay, by as much as two years, have swirled around Project 75, under which the Scorpenes have been acquired. We have learnt that work on the first Scorpene has ground to a halt, and it is unlikely to be ready before 2015.

Most disquietingly, the delay is due to a contracting blunder, stemming from the ministry of defence's propagation of a myth that significant parts of the submarine were being built with Indian components.

This led the defence ministry to create a special category called Mazagaon Procured Materials, or MPM. Of the total project cost of Rs 18,798 crore, Rs 2,700 crore were set aside for MDL to contract directly for submarine materials. But the impression created, by giving MDL a budget for locally procuring materials and systems from multiple vendors, was false. The bulk of MPM budget, as the defence ministry knew, would go straight to a single vendor -- French company Armaris, with whom India [ Images ] signed the Scorpene contract. This would pay for critical submarine systems, including the engine, the generators and special submarine steels.

There was no question of competitive bidding for these items.

Since they affected crucial aspects of Scorpene's performance, such as noise levels, they had to be bought from the original vendor, Armaris, for performance guarantees to be valid.

It is not clear why the defence ministry left these crucial Scorpene systems unpriced. What is clear is that French company DCNS, which took over Armaris in 2007, is now demanding close to Rs 4,700 crore for these items, almost twice of what was budgeted.

Minister of State for Defence Pallam Raju said that DCNS based its higher demand on cost inflation since the contract was signed in October 2005. The MoD asked the French government to intercede with DCNS, but Paris is unwilling to help.

"We expect the French government to play a role to ensure it (the MPM items) is not priced abnormally high. We understand their need to make profit, but the price should not be abnormally high. We feel the French government is shirking its responsibility," said Raju.

The MoD pleaded its case with a number of French officials, but in vain. "I visited Paris (in June 2009) and I had a meeting with DCNS. They assured us they would hold our hand, but we are not getting that comfort level. I projected [the case] to the French defence minister as well. [In November] We had a senior French MoD bureaucrat come [to Delhi [ Images ]] and I reflected it to him as well," said Raju.

The MoD blamed DCNS' takeover of Armaris for further complicating the negotiations. But that does not answer why a contract that took nine years to finalise failed to fix the price for materials worth Rs 2,700 crore.

Senior naval officers familiar with the negotiations said, "The inclusion of so many crucial systems in the MPM package -- systems that everyone knew had to be bought from Armaris/DCNS -- was a grave contracting mistake. This was done to give the impression of greater indigenisation, since these would apparently be items that MDL was procuring. But this scheme has backfired badly."

Naval planners are struggling to deal with a situation where the induction of Scorpene submarines remains a long way off. Only after the MoD and DCNS agree on a price that production would begin in France [ Images ] of the engines, generators and other systems that are included in MPM category. Technicians working on Project 75 estimate that, once a price is fixed and a contract signed, it will be 33-36 months before the items are delivered to MDL and fitted on the first Scorpene. Thereafter, the painstaking process of outfitting the rest of the vessel, fitting weapons and sensors and carrying out lengthy trials would begin before handing over the submarine to the Navy.

But work at East Yard has not entirely stopped. Having completed the first hull, MDL is going ahead with fabricating the second and the third. Officials involved in Project 75 say this will allow submarines to be delivered at nine-month intervals, rather than the planned 12 months.

Until MPM contract is signed, and the systems delivered, MDL's East Yard will not be producing submarines, but 200-foot metal tubes for a project that began two decades ago, and gradually became a symbol of ineffective defence planning.

Defence ministry's blunder delays Scorpene deal: Rediff.com India News
 

enlightened1

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http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20100124/812/tnl-indian-navy-s-foxtrot-submarines-to.htmlhttp://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20100124/812/tnl-indian-navy-s-foxtrot-submarines-to.html

Sun, Jan 24 01:12 PM

New Delhi, Jan 24 (IANS) They have been of valuable service to the Indian Navy for more than 35 years. The Soviet-built Foxtrot submarines, with which the navy's submarine arm came into existence, will be history soon with the two remaining submarines of this class being retired by 2011 - bringing an era to an end.

The Russian Navy had retired its last Foxtrots between 1995 and 2001. However, the Indian Navy is still operating two of them - INS Vela, commissioned in 1973, and INS Vagli, commissioned in 1974.

'One of the Foxtrot submarines, INS Vela will be de-commissioned this year. The last one INS Vagli would retire in 2011,' a senior Indian Navy official, wishing anonymity, told IANS.

The Foxtrot class was the NATO's reporting name of a class of diesel-electric patrol submarines that were built in the Soviet Union. The first of the submarines was laid down in 1957 and commissioned in 1958. By the time the last submarine was completed in 1983, the Foxtrot class had become obsolete.

'The Indian Navy's submarine arm had begun with the acquisition of four Foxtrot submarines from the Soviet Union. The first four were called Kalvari class submarines. The problems experienced with them were fed back to the design bureaus in Russia.

'Improvements were gradually introduced and we contracted for another four submarines in 1971. These Vela class submarines arrived between 1973 and 1975,' said the official.

According to senior navy officials, out of these eight submarines acquired only two are operational now. The condition of the first four submarines deteriorated fast due to delay in the six-yearly refits.

The Indian Navy lacked the expertise at that time to do the refit. The Russians, because of their own submarine refit workload, were reluctant to accept Indian submarines in their dockyards.

Submariners of the Indian Navy who have operated this vessel feel a sense of nostalgia over the Foxtrots being retired.

'The boats are of German design of World War-II. But the fact that are still able to run it after 35 years of service means that the boats are very good,' an Indian Navy officer, who has commanded INS Vela, told IANS.

Being an older submarine, the vessel had its own problems of space.

'Space is actually a constraint in the older submarines. As the submarines are old, and the equipments are bigger - it increases space constraint. The bunk space is so small that some people had to squeeze to get inside. But we had wonderful camaraderie onboard,' the former submarine commander reminisced.

Another navy officer, who commanded the submarine in the 1980s, said: 'Well, like in all submarines, fresh water was in very short supply. We used to get half a litre water daily for drinking. There was no question of having a bath or the luxury of using it for other things. But the adrenaline rush of the chosen few who could run the machine kept us going.'

The submarine can be deployed underwater for 45 days at a stretch and surfaces once in a day to replenish oxygen.

One of the de-commissioned submarines of the Foxtrot class has been kept in Visakhapatnam and converted into a Submarine Museum.

'The Submarine Museum is one of its kind in Asia. It is a difficult task to lift a 1,500 tonne submarine and put it on the road,' said another navy official.
 

JHA

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the second line of acquisitions better be announced soon. india desperately needs the subs.
 

bengalraider

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For me the best choice is the S1000 , We can get European technology along with good old Russian ruggedness in one package; Also as this submarine is a joint project between Rubin and Fincianteri we can opt to get half our order built in Russia and another half in Italy thereby halving the time to delivery for the entire order.I.E If we want 8 boats we can have 4 Italian built and 4 Russian built vessels.
 

kuku

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The choice will depend on technology its transfer and the costs of the transfer, what is important is to get a domestic line going, unless we are inducting one submarine per year and decommissioning one after 20 years of intense service (instead of mid life refits) our submarine force will neither be big in numbers nor technologically superior in the region. Every year we loose not only reduces our submarine numbers , it also reduces our technological superiority.

The biggest threat to this is the inefficiency and corruption in the ministry of defence (or through the ministry), they take far too long processing simple tender documents which delays the tender, and if any corruption scam is uncovered there is a risk of the cancellation of the tender, the gap between the construction of the HDW Type 209 class and the current variant of Scorpène class was too long, which has cost us in terms of domestic production.
 
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neo29

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We still can cope up this short comings. After a submarine is chosen, its best to give it to private entities like L&T for hull making, communication systems to Tata .. etc. i feel private firms can build faster than our slow mazgaon docks. But for all these to happen, a submarine must be chosen.
 

bengalraider

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What good is an Italian-Russo partnership? Fincianteri hasn't designed a new submarine in over 30 years.
This submarine design is primarily Russian the Italians have contributed little except cash to fund the project(simply put fincianteri wanted to know how to make subs the russians wanted cash they converged interests); it is a modified version of the Russian Amur class so there's little to fear as far as design failure is concerned. However coming back to the topic on hand i prefer this boat for only one reason . A joint parallel construction in both Russian and Italian yards should be able to get us subs at twice the speed of a single yard; we need subs and we need them yesterday so it's all more a matter of who has the greatest chance of delivering before time.
 

kuku

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We still can cope up this short comings. After a submarine is chosen, its best to give it to private entities like L&T for hull making, communication systems to Tata .. etc. i feel private firms can build faster than our slow mazgaon docks. But for all these to happen, a submarine must be chosen.
The contracts are still going to come out of the same ministry with the same delays due to the great Indian red tape.
 

Parashuram1

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I have a question to most Indians here: Since you already successfully made a nuclear-powered ballistic missile Submarine why don't you have any plans in designing conventional/nuclear powered attack submarines as such? Not SSBNs but regular attack submarines. Doesn't it really sound amusing that while Indian engineers achieved the tougher technology part, the simpler part is yet unknown to them?
 

Armand2REP

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I have a question to most Indians here: Since you already successfully made a nuclear-powered ballistic missile Submarine why don't you have any plans in designing conventional/nuclear powered attack submarines as such? Not SSBNs but regular attack submarines. Doesn't it really sound amusing that while Indian engineers achieved the tougher technology part, the simpler part is yet unknown to them?
Because they haven't successfully made an SSBN. Arihant is still waiting to test a reactor. You can't walk before you crawl.
 

gb009

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I have a question to most Indians here: Since you already successfully made a nuclear-powered ballistic missile Submarine why don't you have any plans in designing conventional/nuclear powered attack submarines as such? Not SSBNs but regular attack submarines. Doesn't it really sound amusing that while Indian engineers achieved the tougher technology part, the simpler part is yet unknown to them?
Another reason probably could be that SSNs can be bought but I don't think any country would be ready to sell us SSBNs (Don't know if this is prohibited by any kind of international law/treaty).
One more reason could be that if we were to develop an SSN it has to be top-of-the-line ie. comparable to the best in the world (as very good ones can already be acquired from other countries), that would be difficult. Besides the Navy will not induct something which will not be up to par with what it can buy from another country. In case of SSBNs India can still afford to have a learning curve and build advanced SSBNs a couple of decades down the line as not many countries are into getting them.
Oh yes and one more thing, SSBNs are very crucial to India because of its policy for "no first use" as it will provide a second strike capability. So I think getting an SSBN would have higher priority to adding more SSNs to our fleet (though the strength has depleted a lot in the past couple of years).
 
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gb009

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Because they haven't successfully made an SSBN. Arihant is still waiting to test a reactor. You can't walk before you crawl.
@Armand2REP
If we do end up having an operational SSBN by say 2012/2013 or even a few years after that would you agree that we managed to walk before crawling? :)
 

Armand2REP

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@Armand2REP
If we do end up having an operational SSBN by say 2012/2013 or even a few years after that would you agree that we managed to walk before crawling? :)
No, walking before you crawl in the context I used would require India to make an SSN before they make an SSBN.
 

kuku

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Because they haven't successfully made an SSBN. Arihant is still waiting to test a reactor. You can't walk before you crawl.
Now its waiting to test a reactor from does not have a reactor, wonderful.
 

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