Indian Special Forces

[Ind.Operator]

I am not calling out anyone my friend.

Without giving proper equipments if you ask someone to charge at the enemy that too in Urban environment what should i call it if not cannon fodder?

The thing is most of you guys look at it from the perspective of being fans of SF and having god like following for SF officers ..so a guy like me stating facts here doesnt get counter debated but taunted.

Whereas my perspective of making a comment is from the mindset that i have lost family members on LOC.

Could they have been saved by better equipment? Maybe yes.

If they would have been alive today would i have been so critical of the modernization..Maybe not.

But one thing lets not make excuses of terrain on the lack of vision in our Army.

Most of the 911 calls for Para SF are for Urban environment ops which is the majority in Kashmir.

So if you and me agree that our SF are not mutants what these equipment does is increases situational awareness.

Which results is better kill % and also safety for own troops.

Why dont we agree that in the last 30 years we could have shown atleast some innovation and invented few products?

Really sorry for the loss... Maybe better equipments would have saved many or maybe not.. but the thing is when you emphasize gears of troops from western sfs/ infantry we should keep the other things in mind too they don't get any kind of financial assistance from military if they are KIA forget about pensions... In our forces there's a lot money which goes for all this and its legit to spent. Here its more of criticising forces over gears which makes no sense.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Really sorry for the loss... Maybe better equipments would have saved many or maybe not.. but the thing is when you emphasize gears of troops from western sfs/ infantry we should keep the other things in mind too they don't get any kind of financial assistance from military if they are KIA forget about pensions... In our forces there's a lot money which goes for all this and its legit to spent. Here its more criticising forces over gears which make no sense.

Look not because i m from the affected family but i think matyrs deserve that money.

However the pension i am not really sure about.

 

[tomthounaojam]

anyone?

Dropbox - File Deleted - Simplify your life

www.dropbox.com

 

[rkhanna]

Really sorry for the loss... Maybe better equipments would have saved many or maybe not.. but the thing is when you emphasize gears of troops from western sfs/ infantry we should keep the other things in mind too they don't get any kind of financial assistance from military if they are KIA forget about pensions... In our forces there's a lot money which goes for all this and its legit to spent. Here its more of criticising forces over gears which makes no sense.

Almost all militaries confer military benefits for the deceased dependents on rank and commission.

Why do you say they don't get death benefits ?

 

[Tactical Doge]

Almost all militaries confer military benefits for the deceased dependents on rank and commission.

Why do you say they don't get death benefits ?

West follows a very different philosophy when it comes to that, very much different from what we use here
Basically the veteran/martyr have to be insured prior to his/her Deployment in order to avail such "luxury"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15932009/

And these are not accounting for 9+ million in Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan combined

 

[fire starter]

Para airborne.

 

[rkhanna]

West follows a very different philosophy when it comes to that, very much different from what we use here
Basically the veteran/martyr have to be insured prior to his/her Deployment in order to avail such "luxury"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15932009/

And these are not accounting for 9+ million in Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan combined

Again that is a misconception. Vietnam was a draft cannot be included.

If the lengfht of your commission or tour was 3/4 years you get proportional benefit. Same happens in india wjth SSC soldiers who die. They don't get same benefits as full term soldiers.

There are many other benefits that Indian soldiers like subsidies etc, that Americans wouldn't get for example. But they get free college rides that is second to nothing else on the planet.

Added later: more than enough of our veterans OR and officers suffer crushing poverty post their service. And if they have a disability they really struggle.

 

[abingdonboy]

Posting all interesting ones here:

Interesting points to note:

> MP-5s really seem to be on their way out, the MPX indeed seems to be the intended full replacement
> CPG Raider-Ex helmets seem to have been procured in large quantity, more than likely intended replacement of ACH

@abingdonboy

From this lot one of the most interesting ones is the 'green' dress, confirms what was murmured a few years back- NSG have been given a mandate to be ready for a jungle HR mission that may emerge in the LWE fight.

The K9 abilities of NSG are truly something to behold, EASILY the most capable such force in that part of the world, this is something NSG have really worked to build up.


I don't think we can read too much into the M4/SCAR/FN2000 sightings- I'm 95% sure that's just for the camera

Interesting points to note:

> MP-5s really seem to be on their way out, the MPX indeed seems to be the intended full replacement
> CPG Raider-Ex helmets seem to have been procured in large quantity, more than likely intended replacement of ACH

I am still on the fence wrt to the MPX rollout, yes it's being seen more for these public events but the vast majority of NSG when you see the still have the MP-5 as standard issue. The marching contingent had a lot of MPXs but the 51 SAG guys that were there on alert still had MP-5s so don't know how much to read into MPX sightings


Might be a similar story with the high cuts

But given that they clearly have high cuts in quite substantial numbers (and with a few operational guys) surely COMTACS have to be on the agenda at some point?


Focus also really needs to be given towards night fighting, more operators are being seen with a NOD instead of just the lead man as previous SOP was but we all know the limitations of the monocular NODs plus still yet to see any NSG operator with a LAD- not even one built into the sights like the MOD SOFs have. Surely it's only a matter of time before the Tonbo BNVD-P is with these guys?

+ do you think the sight seen on the first F-2000 might be the Arjun @Gessler ?

This myth only seems to have been propagated by a single source- the Trushul blog that couldn't even get the time of day right.

Still yet to see a single other image of SPB with a Tavor, not even clear what SPB do these days although I know they are still around.

Equipment aside, mandate must fit mission parameters. We need good equipment and gear, but an open question: How good is a hi-cut helmet with comtacs in the humid jungles of the NE or the dense forests of Kashmir where even satellite reception is quite poor. This is an open question for the forum to ask and it is an honest, sincere question.

Red herring, no one said to use them in the NE or jungles for long range foot missions but JK? Any other mission? Please see how extensive they are used around the world and for every type of mission imaginable, let's to continue with the myth that somehow Indian SFs are unique or face unique challenges.

 

[Wisemarko]

So Indian SF are using Chinese made SIG Romeo4 sights. Interesting.

 

[abingdonboy]

So Indian SF are using Chinese made SIG Romeo4 sights. Interesting.

Probably supplied by the OEM along with the MPXs, a lot of things are made in China



+ @Gessler just realised something that was bugging me- till date we haven't seen any MPX with the NSG's distinctive double mag load out, I assume that SIG makes a proprietary twin mag joiner? Will be interesting to see if NSG are transitioning away from this too and focusing more on rapid mag changes from the plate carrier

 

[rkhanna]

From this lot one of the most interesting ones is the 'green' dress, confirms what was murmured a few years back- NSG have been given a mandate to be ready for a jungle HR mission that may emerge in the LWE fight

NSG has along history of Jungle CT and Interdiction ops. Including the famous one against Veerapaan.

So Indian SF are using Chinese made SIG Romeo4 sights. Interesting.

Indian SF use/used DGI drones.

 

[abingdonboy]

NSG has along history of Jungle CT and Interdiction ops. Including the famous one against Veerapaan.

More details?

 

[rkhanna]

More details?

From wiki
Non urban cr operations:

January 1988: The NSG conducted Op Black Hawk, a heliborne operation in the Mand area of Punjab. In this operation two terrorists were killed and one 7.62mm rifle was recovered. It was a massive operation, says former NSG Director-General Ved Marwah, though it did not get many spectacular results like in Black Thunder.[34]

4 August 1989: Operation Mouse Trap in the Tarn Taran district of Punjab, in conjunction with Punjab Police and other security forces. NSG was able to demonstrate that it was possible to achieve area dominance at night, if the strategy and tactics were right. Ved Marwah calls this Operation Night Dominance

September 2002 – SAG commandos flew to Karnataka, to catch sandalwood smuggler and forest brigand Veerappan, in the wake of the kidnapping of a former minister of the state cabinet, Nagappa. They pulled out after suggesting that intelligence for the operation was inadequate. A small team was left behind to help, the hostage


Oh and they have operated in J&K in thr past as well

October 1998: As part of the implementation of the Union Home Ministry's decision to conduct pro-active strikes against militants, commando teams supported by IAF Mi-25/35 helicopter gun-ships began striking at terrorist groups deep inside the mountains and forests of Kashmir. After helicopter reconnaissance was conducted to pinpoint the militants, the commandos – comprising NSG and Rashtriya Rifles personnel – were para-dropped, along with supplies, into the area to hunt the militants. They had to rely on these supplies and their ability to live off the land until replenishment every fortnight or so. These missions are possibly ongoing.[35]

15 July 1999: NSG commandos ended a 30-hour standoff by killing 2 terrorists and rescuing all 12 hostages unharmed in J&K. The terrorists had attacked a BSF campus near Srinagar, killed 3 officers and the wife of another. The 12 hostages were kept locked in a room

 

[Aditya Ballal]

More details?

Famous Kannada actor Dr Rajkumar was kidnapped by Veerappan from his farm house, so to rescue him and a minister by the name of H Nagappa who was kidnapped in another incident,the Centre wanted to send NSG and did eventually , but did not bear any fruit as then the NSG realised neither Karnataka or Tamil Nadu police did not have any kind of intelligence netw as he used to regularly cross state lines.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

NSG commandos withdrew from operation to capture outlaw Veerappan

Most of the 140 National Security Guard (NSG) commandos withdrew from the Special Task Force (STF) operation to capture outlaw Veerappan and rescue former Karnataka minister Hanur Nagappa.

www.indiatoday.in

 

[Scramjet]

From wiki
Non urban cr operations:

January 1988: The NSG conducted Op Black Hawk, a heliborne operation in the Mand area of Punjab. In this operation two terrorists were killed and one 7.62mm rifle was recovered. It was a massive operation, says former NSG Director-General Ved Marwah, though it did not get many spectacular results like in Black Thunder.[34]

4 August 1989: Operation Mouse Trap in the Tarn Taran district of Punjab, in conjunction with Punjab Police and other security forces. NSG was able to demonstrate that it was possible to achieve area dominance at night, if the strategy and tactics were right. Ved Marwah calls this Operation Night Dominance

September 2002 – SAG commandos flew to Karnataka, to catch sandalwood smuggler and forest brigand Veerappan, in the wake of the kidnapping of a former minister of the state cabinet, Nagappa. They pulled out after suggesting that intelligence for the operation was inadequate. A small team was left behind to help, the hostage


Oh and they have operated in J&K in thr past as well

October 1998: As part of the implementation of the Union Home Ministry's decision to conduct pro-active strikes against militants, commando teams supported by IAF Mi-25/35 helicopter gun-ships began striking at terrorist groups deep inside the mountains and forests of Kashmir. After helicopter reconnaissance was conducted to pinpoint the militants, the commandos – comprising NSG and Rashtriya Rifles personnel – were para-dropped, along with supplies, into the area to hunt the militants. They had to rely on these supplies and their ability to live off the land until replenishment every fortnight or so. These missions are possibly ongoing.[35]

15 July 1999: NSG commandos ended a 30-hour standoff by killing 2 terrorists and rescuing all 12 hostages unharmed in J&K. The terrorists had attacked a BSF campus near Srinagar, killed 3 officers and the wife of another. The 12 hostages were kept locked in a room

Those 1998 operations were most probably a brainchild of gen lidder, pure legend

 

[Tactical Doge]

These missions are possibly ongoing.[35]

Ongoing..........
Hmm interesting
Interesting how we barely get to hear anything about them ops
"mountains and Jungles in Kashmir" - those green camo used there perhaps?

 

[rkhanna]

Ongoing..........
Hmm interesting
Interesting how we barely get to hear anything about them ops
"mountains and Jungles in Kashmir" - those green camo used there perhaps?

That is from a BR article in 99. We are in 2021. NSG is now pretty much relegated to barracks from what I am told. Otherwise heliborne ops are donr by SF and there are no longer camps in outside of the LOC

 

[Scramjet]

Ongoing..........
Hmm interesting
Interesting how we barely get to hear anything about them ops
"mountains and Jungles in Kashmir" - those green camo used there perhaps?

I guess only SF/SG (they both deploy at same places) operate in deep jungles these days, even back in 90s, they lived in constant operations in North kashmir/leepa-neelam valley/pir panjals...at places that take 2-3 days' trip on foot (i'm talking about the late 90s early 2000s era)

 

[abingdonboy]

That is from a BR article in 99. We are in 2021. NSG is now pretty much relegated to barracks from what I am told

It's a bit of a paradox, on one hand it's a good thing that NSG are being reserved for the most extreme ops and not used like PARA (SF) are in JK for every cordon and search mission but it's also a limitation as it means they are largely untested and as they are a deputationist force none of their rank and file have seen an operation as members of NSG. I guess this is why NSG are investing so heavily in realistic training equipment.


That said it would be a misnomer to say they were relegated to barracks, they actually have a very high workload with real world drills, training up partner forces and foreword deployments. I think it was a couple of years back when the NSG's operational tempo was so high they had to cancel their raising day celebrations as their resources were so stretched ( I believe this was in the wake of the surgical strikes hence the terror alert level was high).

 

[fire starter]

It's a bit of a paradox, on one hand it's a good thing that NSG are being reserved for the most extreme ops and not used like PARA (SF) are in JK for every cordon and search mission but it's also a limitation as it means they are largely untested and as they are a deputationist force none of their rank and file have seen an operation as members of NSG. I guess this is why NSG are investing so heavily in realistic training equipment.


That said it would be a misnomer to say they were relegated to barracks, they actually have a very high workload with real world drills, training up partner forces and foreword deployments. I think it was a couple of years back when the NSG's operational tempo was so high they had to cancel their raising day celebrations as their resources were so stretched ( I believe this was in the wake of the surgical strikes hence the terror alert level was high).

I believe it's also due to some ego issues that NSG wasn't used properly in kashmir.