Indian Special Forces

[Kumaoni]

This was my first thought too

it’s rather a reflection of the poor JCO/NCO cadre that the Indian military has failed to create all this time. This was actually one of the biggest issues the ISAF/coalition/NATO forces identified in their failures to build up the Iraqi and Afghan security forces- their NCO cadres were utter garbage.

you constantly hear about Indian SFs being lead by officers even small units (teams), in the West most of the leadership and organisation of conventional and SF is done by NCOs and in SFs this is actually even more the case.

similarly you often hear of very senior commanders being lost in operations in JK/NE and even in Kargil this was the case

Kevin owens (ex Irish and US army SF) has spoken a lot about this in his podcasts and points out the value of strong NCO leadership, they are the permanent cadre as officers will always be coming/going/promotion

Only time senior commanders are lost are in fidayeen attacks.

You act like in battles when an officers dies, no JCO dies with him.

 

[abingdonboy]

Only time senior commanders are lost are in fidayeen attacks.

You act like in battles when an officers dies, no JCO dies with him.

Plenty of majors and colonels have been lost leading COIN/CT ops

 

[Kumaoni]

Plenty of majors and colonels have been lost leading COIN/CT ops

Majors usually leads COIN ops tho even Lt Cols are usually at the very front. Several win gallantry awards doing so

 

[abingdonboy]

Majors usually leads COIN ops tho even Lt Cols are usually at the very front. Several win gallantry awards doing so

Just googling I can find at least 5 colonels killed in the last ~10 years, this is utterly absurd. That rank is meant to be a command position. It’s terrible strategy+ discipline to put the COs and most experienced individuals at the front of the Ops. It either speaks to poor leadership skills (delegation) or a lack of trust in the JCO/NCO cadre, probably both realistically

despite being in almost continuous conflict for the past 30 years I cannot find any US army colenels killed leading men in the last few decades (yes some have died in rear duties from indirect fire or even fratricide)

 

[Kumaoni]

Just googling I can find at least 5 colonels killed in the last ~10 years, this is utterly absurd. That rank is meant to be a command position. It’s terrible strategy+ discipline to put the COs and most experienced individuals at the front of the Ops. It either speaks to poor leadership skills (delegation) or a lack of trust in the JCO/NCO cadre, probably both realistically

despite being in almost continuous conflict for the past 30 years I cannot find any US army colenels killed leading men in the last few decades (yes some have died in rear duties from indirect fire or even fratricide)

I think Majors and Captains leading is fine but Lt Col and CO need to be clear of enemy sight,

 

[Blademaster]

I think Majors and Captains leading is fine but Lt Col and CO need to be clear of enemy sight,

In western militaries senior NCOs lead in the front and are the real backbones of the military and provides the necessary leadership whereas LTs are training in leadership and captains provide command guidance. Senior NCOs make things run and operate smoothly. Senior NCOs are held in great respect in western militaries.

It’s a different philosophy.

 

[ALBY]

This was my first thought too

it’s rather a reflection of the poor JCO/NCO cadre that the Indian military has failed to create all this time. This was actually one of the biggest issues the ISAF/coalition/NATO forces identified in their failures to build up the Iraqi and Afghan security forces- their NCO cadres were utter garbage.

you constantly hear about Indian SFs being lead by officers even small units (teams), in the West most of the leadership and organisation of conventional and SF is done by NCOs and in SFs this is actually even more the case.

similarly you often hear of very senior commanders being lost in operations in JK/NE and even in Kargil this was the case

Kevin owens (ex Irish and US army SF) has spoken a lot about this in his podcasts and points out the value of strong NCO leadership, they are the permanent cadre as officers will always be coming/going/promotion

Its all because of the British military culture,prevalent casteism(speaking from colonial era angle where officers were from higher caste only),elitist mindset among officers towards the men they command.Moreover the educational qualification of men and the skills they avquire vary from state to state.The officers selected through acc stream or from jawan cadre are not considered with great esteem aming other direct nda or ima cadre.
Contrary to this in police all the things are run by INSPECTORS sub inspectors and constabulary.IPs officers run the things in field only in movies.Otherwise they just sit in comfy offices and give dumb directions.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Just googling I can find at least 5 colonels killed in the last ~10 years, this is utterly absurd. That rank is meant to be a command position. It’s terrible strategy+ discipline to put the COs and most experienced individuals at the front of the Ops. It either speaks to poor leadership skills (delegation) or a lack of trust in the JCO/NCO cadre, probably both realistically

despite being in almost continuous conflict for the past 30 years I cannot find any US army colenels killed leading men in the last few decades (yes some have died in rear duties from indirect fire or even fratricide)

Have stopped myself from posting this many times but this CO leading and having that I,Me attitude has gotten a lot if Young Officers being matyred unnecessarily.

 

[Bleh]

What competitions are Indian infantry winning? And if you’re talking about Cumbria patrol or whatever in the U.K. don’t even bother

Why? 🥲

 

[Kumaoni]

[/QUOTE]

Col. Ram Pradhan and Maj Abhay Sapru raised this specific battalion which later evolved into 31RR. Manpower belonged to Jakli, Dogra and para regt.
They started functioning under the doda based delta force of RR and conducted several operations.
This very idea of a cdo RR unit was concieved by Gen Joshi.

One such major operation - The unit was involved in a major operation during the period when a new militant outfit, Al-Faran, kidnapped several foreign tourists in the Kashmir Valley. While the Army and the RR Battalions were immediately pressed into service, a team from this unit operating in Doda, south of the Pir Panjals in Jammu district received information that a militant identified as “Sohaid Bhai” was looking for contacts in the Kishtwar area. There was another terrorists with him – Hasan Ali also known as Al Turki. They had been tasked by the Al Faran to establish contact with the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen(HuM) squad in Kishtwar so that the hostages could be moved there to escape the army units searching for them. The unit established a dragnet across the area preventing the two militants from establishing contact as a cat-and-mouse game continued over the next 72 hours. Worried that commandos would get them, a Gujjar guide who was working with the militants ran away with Hasan Ali’s weapon. He gave up and led them to their hideout where two cameras of the hostages were recovered, the whereabouts of hostages remained unknown. (Source : from a book i dont remember)

HarkatulMujahideen at its peak was on par with the Mujahids of the Soviet era, same with LeT, actually LeT has fought in Afghanistan several times

 

[Blood+]

their SF were also working very closely with NATO SF, all of this plus NATO ISR support is why they’ve not crumpled

Their SFs are getting picked off wholesale by Russian VDV and Marines at will, not to mention the alligators and artillery. The only reason why Ukraine hasn't crumbled like a house of cards is NATO emptying its own inventory and their continuous ISR support.

as the Russians employed their soviet tactics and human waves on them.

Please, just stop and stick to the topic of Indian SF, of which you do posses some actual knowledge. Like seriously, Russians employing human waves??!! Like what??!! Dude, the biggest reason they couldn't smash the Ukies within the first few months is due to the utter lack of infantry the BTGs were suffering from!! Human waves my ass, they barely had 150k soldiers against 5-600k Ukies!! They tried to compensate for it with artillery but failed and then had to resort to mobilization. At least do some research before flapping your traps so that you don't end up looking like a total jackass like this.

 

[Blood+]

Most of the time human wave tactics, nothing special strategically

It's clear you have never picked up an actual book on this subject, or even the official history, for that matter. If you had, you would have known that that was rarely the case. Back then, the officers used to have actual brains, and Human wave tactics were frowned upon with zeal.

 

[Kumaoni]

It's clear you have never picked up an actual book on this subject, or even the official history, for that matter. If you had, you would have known that that was rarely the case. Back then, the officers used to have actual brains, and Human wave tactics were frowned upon with zeal.

Well it depends on the battle and the officer leading.

Human waves was used in Tololing, point 4875.

Surprise was used in tiger Hill, point 5770, point 5140. It was like 50/50 attacking from unconventional directions and attacking from the frontal charge when there was no approach by surprise possible.

Battle of Dograi, bloodiest infantry encounter in 1965 in an urban setting was a multidirectional assault. Battle of Bhaduria- Bloodiest urban battle in 1971 was a frontal charge which was won by sheer grit and courage.

 

[Blood+]

Well it depends on the battle and the officer leading.

Human waves was used in Tololing, point 4875.

Surprise was used in tiger Hill, point 5770, point 5140. It was like 50/50 attacking from unconventional directions and attacking from the frontal charge when there was no approach by surprise possible.

I was talking about the battles of 65 and 71.

 

[Kumaoni]

I was talking about the battles of 65 and 71.

Even here it matters too.

Also what are we constituting as “human wave”, usually the army would attack an enemy position from multiple directions. Not sending one platoon then another platoon then another platoon, a company would usually attack at the same time.

 

[Blood+]

Even here it matters too.

Also what are we constituting as “human wave”, usually the army would attack an enemy position from multiple directions. Not sending one platoon then another platoon then another platoon, a company would usually attack at the same time.

I know all that, tell that to the English dude. What I'm saying is that PLA-style human wave tactics were rarely used by Indian commanders. Instead, they employed classic fire and maneuver-style attacks.

 

[Blood+]

Since we're off rail anyway
View attachment 213095
@abingdonboy @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @airborneCommando @Love Charger @ManhattanProject

Those were the real officers. Sadly, that breed is all but gone, as it'd appear, and they don't make them like that anymore.

 

[Tactical Doge]

Those were the real officers, they don't make them like that anymore.

Sapru gives me serious Officer vibes

 

[Blood+]

Sapru gives me serious Officer vibes

Yeah, he sure does. He was a soldier's officer but these guys do not last very long as they aren't as adept at licking butts as their more 'conventional' minded comrades.

 

[Spadex]

Read on guys you'll find a lot of cool pics and information in the thread