Indian Special Forces (archived)

[abingdonboy]

One pick and some rag tag mercenary lol

View attachment 69108

Apples and oranges, is this their diving kit? Are these over the beach operations? Have we ever seen them operating in the water (wet) with any of the equipment above?

They are meant to be a NAVAL SF and yet their actual maritime warfare capabilities seem to be the most backwards.

That comment was out of line. They were using that kit because it was a diving operation. What better than an AK for swimming through salt water.

It's not out of line, this isn't how any decent Navy SF should be operating today, where are their plate carriers? Helmets? Comns? They don't even have spare ammo, 30 rounds and then what? hand to hand fighting?

This is the problem I see again and again with Indian SFs, they aren't training to fight, they are training based on what they perceive a commando is- running around screaming "COMANDOOOO" and hitting each other with sticks. When they emerge out of the water and are engaged the enemy's rounds will cut through them, the ones that are left alive will be useless after they've fired the contents of their sole magazine and they can't even communicate with each other except by hand signals

This team could have been from the 1980s, literally nothing has changed in the last 40+ years, unreal.

MARCOs:

But but, they save their good equipment for ops, this is just a demonstration, yea right.


The AK is so good that's why no top line navy SF uses it for over the beach ops? This spray and pray AK with no sights is going to give them an edge?


If you want to get a mission done you ask Western SFs, if you want to get a Bollywood imitation of a Special Forces mission, look to Indian SFs.

 

[rkhanna]

Even after that few of the Para SF have immense respect for their Pakistani counterparts. They regard them no lesser in capabilities and skills and don’t underestimate their counterparts and arch-nemesis especially. That is due to the professional approach which is taught in Indian Armed Forces.

This was what I ws goinf to say. There isn't a single SF operator I have met old or new who does not respect the skills of ths SSG

 

[Narendra s rawat]

Apples and oranges, is this their diving kit? Are these over the beach operations? Have we ever seen them operating in the water (wet) with any of the equipment above?

They are meant to be a NAVAL SF and yet their actual maritime warfare capabilities seem to be the most backwards.


It's not out of line, this isn't how any decent Navy SF should be operating today, where are their plate carriers? Helmets? Comns? They don't even have spare ammo, 30 rounds and then what? hand to hand fighting?

This is the problem I see again and again with Indian SFs, they aren't training to fight, they are training based on what they perceive a commando is- running around screaming "COMANDOOOO" and hitting each other with sticks. When they emerge out of the water and are engaged the enemy's rounds will cut through them, the ones that are left alive will be useless after they've fired the contents of their sole magazine and they can't even communicate with each other except by hand signals

This team could have been from the 1980s, literally nothing has changed in the last 40+ years, unreal.

MARCOs:

But but, they save their good equipment for ops, this is just a demonstration, yea right.


The AK is so good that's why no top line navy SF uses it for over the beach ops? This spray and pray AK with no sights is going to give them an edge?


If you want to get a mission done you ask Western SFs, if you want to get a Bollywood imitation of a Special Forces mission, look to Indian SFs.

These are not recent image of marcos this image are 1 decade older.
you can check the livefist 2 Nov 2011 article on Marcos you will find same images there.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Apples and oranges, is this their diving kit? Are these over the beach operations? Have we ever seen them operating in the water (wet) with any of the equipment above?

They are meant to be a NAVAL SF and yet their actual maritime warfare capabilities seem to be the most backwards.


It's not out of line, this isn't how any decent Navy SF should be operating today, where are their plate carriers? Helmets? Comns? They don't even have spare ammo, 30 rounds and then what? hand to hand fighting?

This is the problem I see again and again with Indian SFs, they aren't training to fight, they are training based on what they perceive a commando is- running around screaming "COMANDOOOO" and hitting each other with sticks. When they emerge out of the water and are engaged the enemy's rounds will cut through them, the ones that are left alive will be useless after they've fired the contents of their sole magazine and they can't even communicate with each other except by hand signals

This team could have been from the 1980s, literally nothing has changed in the last 40+ years, unreal.

MARCOs:

But but, they save their good equipment for ops, this is just a demonstration, yea right.


The AK is so good that's why no top line navy SF uses it for over the beach ops? This spray and pray AK with no sights is going to give them an edge?


If you want to get a mission done you ask Western SFs, if you want to get a Bollywood imitation of a Special Forces mission, look to Indian SFs.

Sir
With all due respect I do not cast a even minute doubt on your knowledge about our special forces but I would say that you should not and must not compare them to a rag tag militia , it's very distasteful in regards to their prestige as a premier special force of our navy and country .
This government is slowly but surely going towards path of mordernising our military in every aspect deemed appropriate for the security of our country .
Indian military just 7 years ago lagged in almost all regards , no ammunition to lack of spares etc .
India has huge security requirement .
We have an army which ideally should be conquering territories while reducing enemy to oblivion , we are not like israel
nor we.have money neither resolve like USA to raise the standards of our special forces to levels you consider appropriate .
Other needs also require money , infact huge amount of money .
Last 7 years have been formidable , if iam asked about our future prospects .
Don't hope our special forces will be mordenized to standards of the concerned countries , of whose you have posted visual references in your reply .

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

When Para SF and Pakistani SSG Commandos Engaged with Each Other — Indian Defence News

There are many instances when Para SF and Pakistani SSG Commandos fought against each other. We will cite some of the incidents where they engaged each other : 2017 Surgical Strikes : No you...

defenceupdate.in

There are many instances when Para SF and Pakistani SSG Commandos fought against each other. We will cite some of the incidents where they engaged each other :

2017 Surgical Strikes : No you didn’t read it wrong. Indian army Special Forces once again did a surgical strike back in 2017 back in the month of December. In this surgical strike , 9 Para SF and Ghataks of 2 Sikh were involved. Though it is not yet revealed that they engaged Pakistani SSG elements there , atleast one SSG Commando named Yasin was killed. Here is his pic:

The raid was carried out in Rakhchakri area of Rawalkot District in Pakistan and 7 confirmed kills were made.

1999 Kargil War : SSG elements were inducted to hold up high positions against Indian troopers. SSG was also involved in supporting Pakistani regulars during retreat and evacuating Pakistani casualties. Capt Ammar Hussain, SSG, Sitara E Jurrat (P) was killed by Indian Para SF during Battle for Tiger Hill in one such operation.

1971 Indo-Pak War : In 1971 , India dispatched the Special Frontier Force in East Pakistan. At Chittagong 2nd commando battalion of SSG was based and SFF who are know famously known as the “Phantoms of Chittagong” were successful in eliminating them completely as they swept and the hills and the valleys with the Pakistanis which housed them.

In Kargil war,Tololink 10 soldiers of Special forces unit of indian army rajput regiment led by naib subedar Digendra Kumar engaged with pakistani elite SSG major anwar khan from northan light infantry and his team around 23 pakistani got killed and around 11 of them were SSGs including major Anwar khan in Hand to hand fight with Digendra kumar(slitted throat)

India also lost their 9 para commandos left only Digendra kumar was alive

Even now Pakistani SSG are now forming the part of the infamous BAT aka Border Action Teams who have been involved in mutilating Indian Jawans. 9 Para SF and 4 Para SF are taking special care of these BAT teams now eliminating them at LoC.

Even Indian Infantry Soldiers have been engaging SSG head on. Subedar (R) Bana Singh and his team killed 6 Pakistani SSG soldiers, 3 in hand to hand combat during Op.Rajiv in 1987 at Siachen. Subedar Atta Muhammad 3rd. Coy Shaheen SSG was killed and few of the injured fell off or jumped off the cliff. For this bravery Subedar Atta Mohammed was posthumously awarded one of Pakistani highest military award Sitara E Jurrat.

Even after that few of the Para SF have immense respect for their Pakistani counterparts. They regard them no lesser in capabilities and skills and don’t underestimate their counterparts and arch-nemesis especially. That is due to the professional approach which is taught in Indian Armed Forces.

Inaccurate.

Digender singh was Black cat commando aka ex nsg not Para.

Para were not involved in this operation.

 

[mokoman]

Offtopic but if you search marcos commandos on youtube this is thumbnail of first video.

saw same image on several sites including new sites.

 

[Underground Soldier]

Inaccurate.

Digender singh was Black cat commando aka ex nsg not Para.

Para were not involved in this operation.

He was also a PARA SF Commando. He had worn balidan badge as well. I think he was from 10 PARA SF coz he was a Rajasthani and they mostly join 10 PARA SF

 

[Killbot]

Offtopic but if you search marcos commandos on youtube this is thumbnail of first video.

saw same image on several sites including new sites.

SEALs 1990s.

 

[mupper]

SEALs 1990s.

Thought it was Polish GROM.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

He was also a PARA SF Commando. He had worn balidan badge as well. I think he was from 10 PARA SF coz he was a Rajasthani and they mostly join 10 PARA SF

View attachment 69197

At the time of the operation mentioned he was not in Para.

 

[mokoman]

SEALs 1990s.

Thought it was Polish GROM.

i thought you guys can tell me

Same image is been claimed as 'Polish GROM' , also saw it on a polish website as part of a polish news show.

Also 'navy seals' .

Its also on what looks like the official website of italian military , except there is no sea horse insignia.

Looks like polish guys photoshopped it in.

Its only natural we also claim it as ours.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

This was what I ws goinf to say. There isn't a single SF operator I have met old or new who does not respect the skills of ths SSG

SSG with Indian surveillance and Indian baniya mind haha could have had different results.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Apples and oranges, is this their diving kit? Are these over the beach operations? Have we ever seen them operating in the water (wet) with any of the equipment above?

They are meant to be a NAVAL SF and yet their actual maritime warfare capabilities seem to be the most backwards.


It's not out of line, this isn't how any decent Navy SF should be operating today, where are their plate carriers? Helmets? Comns? They don't even have spare ammo, 30 rounds and then what? hand to hand fighting?

This is the problem I see again and again with Indian SFs, they aren't training to fight, they are training based on what they perceive a commando is- running around screaming "COMANDOOOO" and hitting each other with sticks. When they emerge out of the water and are engaged the enemy's rounds will cut through them, the ones that are left alive will be useless after they've fired the contents of their sole magazine and they can't even communicate with each other except by hand signals

This team could have been from the 1980s, literally nothing has changed in the last 40+ years, unreal.

MARCOs:

But but, they save their good equipment for ops, this is just a demonstration, yea right.


The AK is so good that's why no top line navy SF uses it for over the beach ops? This spray and pray AK with no sights is going to give them an edge?


If you want to get a mission done you ask Western SFs, if you want to get a Bollywood imitation of a Special Forces mission, look to Indian SFs.

I know many wont like him talking like this but i have been for 13 years on defence forums and as far as i remember @abingdonboy joined a year or so later.

And i can understand what he says coz its been a long time to see any developments happening.

The way forward has to be with a blueprint which is clearly not the case.

Procurements are not standard.

The way forward is to understand each others view point and have a healthy debate.

 

[Gessler]

I know many wont like him talking like this but i have been for 13 years on defence forums and as far as i remember @abingdonboy joined a year or so later.

And i can understand what he says coz its been a long time to see any developments happening.

The way forward has to be with a blueprint which is clearly not the case.

Procurements are not standard.

The way forward is to understand each others view point and have a healthy debate.

Myself been around forums and watching defence updates for approx ~10 yrs too, started off in my early teens (13-14). Have to admit, I was every bit the jingo and optimist that most new members are back then.

Every time I see an optimistic post, I can't help but think to myself "yea, hang around for a few years you'll understand how things work".

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

I know many wont like him talking like this but i have been for 13 years on defence forums and as far as i remember @abingdonboy joined a year or so later.

And i can understand what he says coz its been a long time to see any developments happening.

The way forward has to be with a blueprint which is clearly not the case.

Procurements are not standard.

The way forward is to understand each others view point and have a healthy debate.

I have been watching this forum along with others like peedeeeef for last 5 to 6 years .
I consider availability of pasgt as a development , because babu wont allow them without much ruckus

 

[abingdonboy]

These are not recent image of marcos this image are 1 decade older.
you can check the livefist 2 Nov 2011 article on Marcos you will find same images there.

Yeah that's my point, and when is this picture from?

So what has changed in the last 9 years? The last 40?

Sir
With all due respect I do not cast a even minute doubt on your knowledge about our special forces but I would say that you should not and must not compare them to a rag tag militia , it's very distasteful in regards to their prestige as a premier special force of our navy and country .
This government is slowly but surely going towards path of mordernising our military in every aspect deemed appropriate for the security of our country .
Indian military just 7 years ago lagged in almost all regards , no ammunition to lack of spares etc .
India has huge security requirement .
We have an army which ideally should be conquering territories while reducing enemy to oblivion , we are not like israel
nor we.have money neither resolve like USA to raise the standards of our special forces to levels you consider appropriate .
Other needs also require money , infact huge amount of money .
Last 7 years have been formidable , if iam asked about our future prospects .
Don't hope our special forces will be mordenized to standards of the concerned countries , of whose you have posted visual references in your reply .

It's not about knowledge buddy, it's about reality and seeing things for how they truly are.


I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but if we all take off our rose tinted glasses and take a dispassionate look at things we will all come to the same conclusions. I reject the idea that much has changed in the last 7 years, in fact the rot only seems to have gotten deeper.


+ it's not about money, we have been over this a number of times in this thread, equipping SFs is the CHEAP option (compared to buying tanks, fighter jets, submarines etc), it's a question of misplaced priorities and or simple ignorance and indifference by the decision makers.

There are ample "black budgets" in India, projects that are seen as strategic in nature like ICBMs, SSBNs, hard kill-ASAT etc are run out of the PMO, special forces are meant to be STRATEGIC assets but they have no direct connections to the top most leadership, they are treated as "super soldiers" by their respective branches hence why you see them being asked to undertake HADR missions or simple diving jobs.

The state of the Indian SFs is because they are not seen as strategic assets and so are not treated as such. There's nothing that will change that, this is why AFSOD is crucial as it will lead to a dedicated SOCOM hopefully in the next 10-15 years.


Until then expect almost nothing to change, admirals, Air Marshals and infantry generals are not going to wake up today or tomorrow and understand these things, they will continue to treat their SFs as almost irrelevant manpower


Incremental upgrades won't cut it- One team/company might get Hugh cuts meanwhile their sister company is running around with model 1974s.

There needs to be a top down decision to entirely overhaul Indian SFs from head to toe with firm targets, just as the NSG saw 2010-2015.

Offtopic but if you search marcos commandos on youtube this is thumbnail of first video.

saw same image on several sites including new sites.

Every time I see an optimistic post, I can't help but think to myself "yea, hang around for a few years you'll understand how things work".

Very accurate, I think this is the fundamental issue- those that haven't been paying attention for too long start out jingoistic and optimistic, the longer you follow these things or the closer you look the more cynical you become when reality hits you in the face.


I remember @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR and I used to have discussions about Indian SF modernisation about 7-8 years back, we were both sure within a decade everything would be different, remember how MARCOs were meant to have a implemented a future combat system by *2014*? In the last 10 years almost nothing has changed as far as Indian mil SFs are concerned meanwhile the stuff once described as "Gucci" or "tier 1" stuff has trickles down to even "third world nations"



I mean Western Police SWAT units are now using GPNVG-18s (first made public in the aftermath of the Abbotobad raid in May 2011), meanwhile Indian SFs haven't moved on from the monocular NVGs that Western SFs were using in the 1980s.


This is a picture of the local SEK unit (German local police SWAT like unit), this isn't even GSG-9 or anything!

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Yeah that's my point, and when is this picture from?

So what has changed in the last 9 years? The last 40?



It's not about knowledge buddy, it's about reality and seeing things for how they truly are.


I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but if we all take off our rose tinted glasses and take a dispassionate look at things we will all come to the same conclusions. I reject the idea that much has changed in the last 7 years, in fact the rot only seems to have gotten deeper.


+ it's not about money, we have been over this a number of times in this thread, equipping SFs is the CHEAP option (compared to buying tanks, fighter jets, submarines etc), it's a question of misplaced priorities and or simple ignorance and indifference by the decision makers.

There are ample "black budgets" in India, projects that are seen as strategic in nature like ICBMs, SSBNs, hard kill-ASAT etc are run out of the PMO, special forces are meant to be STRATEGIC assets but they have no direct connections to the top most leadership, they are treated as "super soldiers" by their respective branches hence why you see them being asked to undertake HADR missions or simple diving jobs.

The state of the Indian SFs is because they are not seen as strategic assets and so are not treated as such. There's nothing that will change that, this is why AFSOD is crucial as it will lead to a dedicated SOCOM hopefully in the next 10-15 years.


Until then expect almost nothing to change, admirals, Air Marshals and infantry generals are not going to wake up today or tomorrow and understand these things, they will continue to treat their SFs as almost irrelevant manpower


Incremental upgrades won't cut it. There needs to be a top down decision to entirely overhaul Indian SFs from head to toe with firm targets, just as the NSG saw 2010-2015.




Very accurate, I think this is the fundamental issue- those that haven't been paying attention for too long start out jingoistic and optimistic, the longer you follow these things or the closer you look the more cynical you become when reality hits you in the face.


I remember @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR and I used to have discussions about Indian SF modernisation about 7-8 years back, we were both sure within a decade everything would be different, remember how MARCOs were meant to have a implemented a future combat system by *2014*? In the last 10 years almost nothing has changed as far as Indian mil SFs are concerned meanwhile the stuff once described as "Gucci" or "tier 1" stuff has trickles down to even "third world nations"



I mean Western Police SWAT units are now using GPNVG-18s (first made public in the aftermath of the Abbotobad raid in May 2011), meanwhile Indian SFs haven't moved on from the monocular NVGs that Western SFs were using in the 1980s.


This is a picture of the local SEK unit (German local police SWAT like unit), this isn't even GSG-9 or anything!
View attachment 69204

Changes have been made , I can only say about equipment of nsg but still they are progressing at a slow pace to modernise them .
All special forces .

 

[rkhanna]

I know many wont like him talking like this but i have been for 13 years on defence forums and as far as i remember @abingdonboy joined a year or so later.

And i can understand what he says coz its been a long time to see any developments happening.

The way forward has to be with a blueprint which is clearly not the case.

Procurements are not standard.

The way forward is to understand each others view point and have a healthy debate.

Sir I have been a member of forums since 1998 BR WAFF ACIG etc. Lol the progress sometimes has been so slow (InfantryI think it's only been 5/10 years. Lol I feel your pain

PS. Yes I am old

 

[rkhanna]

Yeah that's my point, and when is this picture from?

So what has changed in the last 9 years? The last 40?



It's not about knowledge buddy, it's about reality and seeing things for how they truly are.


I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but if we all take off our rose tinted glasses and take a dispassionate look at things we will all come to the same conclusions. I reject the idea that much has changed in the last 7 years, in fact the rot only seems to have gotten deeper.


+ it's not about money, we have been over this a number of times in this thread, equipping SFs is the CHEAP option (compared to buying tanks, fighter jets, submarines etc), it's a question of misplaced priorities and or simple ignorance and indifference by the decision makers.

There are ample "black budgets" in India, projects that are seen as strategic in nature like ICBMs, SSBNs, hard kill-ASAT etc are run out of the PMO, special forces are meant to be STRATEGIC assets but they have no direct connections to the top most leadership, they are treated as "super soldiers" by their respective branches hence why you see them being asked to undertake HADR missions or simple diving jobs.

The state of the Indian SFs is because they are not seen as strategic assets and so are not treated as such. There's nothing that will change that, this is why AFSOD is crucial as it will lead to a dedicated SOCOM hopefully in the next 10-15 years.


Until then expect almost nothing to change, admirals, Air Marshals and infantry generals are not going to wake up today or tomorrow and understand these things, they will continue to treat their SFs as almost irrelevant manpower


Incremental upgrades won't cut it- One team/company might get Hugh cuts meanwhile their sister company is running around with model 1974s.

There needs to be a top down decision to entirely overhaul Indian SFs from head to toe with firm targets, just as the NSG saw 2010-2015.




Very accurate, I think this is the fundamental issue- those that haven't been paying attention for too long start out jingoistic and optimistic, the longer you follow these things or the closer you look the more cynical you become when reality hits you in the face.


I remember @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR and I used to have discussions about Indian SF modernisation about 7-8 years back, we were both sure within a decade everything would be different, remember how MARCOs were meant to have a implemented a future combat system by *2014*? In the last 10 years almost nothing has changed as far as Indian mil SFs are concerned meanwhile the stuff once described as "Gucci" or "tier 1" stuff has trickles down to even "third world nations"



I mean Western Police SWAT units are now using GPNVG-18s (first made public in the aftermath of the Abbotobad raid in May 2011), meanwhile Indian SFs haven't moved on from the monocular NVGs that Western SFs were using in the 1980s.


This is a picture of the local SEK unit (German local police SWAT like unit), this isn't even GSG-9 or anything!
View attachment 69204

One thing did happen. We enmassed doubled our SF strenght almost over night oh and tavors

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

One thing did happen. We enmassed doubled our SF strenght almost over night oh and tavors

There was a saying in persian..

Archers from Persia..Army of India..Cavalry of .... and discipline of Europe makes the best army (dont remember it correctly)

We have been too Armour heavy with out thinking.

We should take a leaf or two out of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharajs life and change our priorities.

There is no way you are planning a 3rd Aircraft carrier and your SF dresses like a joke.

Para dont even have a standard uniform.