Indian Special Forces (archived)

[FalconSlayers]

@Unknowncommando 2 will Indian army consider Arad rifle as standard 5.56 assault rifle as I feel AK-203 rifles are effective in 300m range whereas 5.56 are effective in 500m range due to higher muzzle velocity, even Russian infantry doesn’t use 7.62x39 instead they use 5.45x39 high muzzle velocity cartridge, china uses 5.8x42 high muzzle velocity cartridge, US and NATO use 5.56x45 all countries use high muzzle velocity cartridged rifles, so do you think Arab will be our standard 5.56x45 mm rifle as they will be made in India.

I don’t know but I feel IA should have a standard optic mass produced in India, like US army’s standard optic is ACOG and Aimpoint COMP M5, will Indian Army go for 1-4x variable power scope for Indian small arms? As BEL holographic sight is presumed to be the standard reflex sight of the Army.

something kinda this (coz ACOGs are pretty damn expensive and cost even more than the rifle itself).

 

[Immanuel]

Your fervent affection for this particular word makes me rather curious about the state of your origin. So which state of our nation had the great fortune to be bestowed with your heavenly appearance??

2020 Telangana/AP border, erstwhile AP. Don't worry I am a tall, dark and handsome nigga too

 

[Immanuel]

Hey guys,
I have been following this thread since a long time now. I am really impressed with the level of discussions that goes in on here regarding the SF units particularly. So i thought this is the best place to announce what i am going to do. So me and my brother who happens to be in the SF (4 years of stint in SG) have formed a start up that focuses on designing and manufacturing combat apparels, tactical vests, plate carriers and other accessories for the Indian operator specifically. Thankfully my brother not only has the practical experience from the lush deep jungles of assam to the mountains of Himalayas but also a sound knowledge and awareness about the western products ranging from 'CRYE', 'warrior assault system', 'UF PRO' and pentagon tactical. He has used these products extensively in live ops in India and Africa but found that somehow most of these products are not 100 % suitable for Indian terrains and environment. Keeping that in mind me and my brother have struck a deal with a manufacturing unit to produce these products in limited quantity considering the prototypes and samples that we designed previously for the Indian operator was a hit with the marine commandos. They were satisfied and impressed that we produced the product of almost the same quality as that of our western counterparts for almost half the price. Unfortunately because of the CHINESE virus our plan came to a halt for a temporary period nevertheless we plan to provide our products in small quantity to various para sf units, garuds and marcos by mid next year. Various PARA SF units have already shown their interest in our products considering the credibility my brother has. I can't exactly reveal the products as of now as its still in baby stage never the less i will be sharing the pics and technical details of the products with you lot by starting next year for you guys to scrutinize and give your valuable feedbacks. My brother after almost 12 years of service in the SF will be taking a premature retirement by next year in order to focus on the start up named "GEARSMITH".
Regards
Abhinandan

Many were laughing when I talked about live Indian SF Ops in Africa. Many still laugh when I say imported Gucci kit doesn't really work or isn't suitable in Indian terrain, climate etc. Many laugh at soldiers as being unaware of the Gucci kit or Western tactics, apparently you guys are all unpad gawars who speak rudimentary english or do only textbook ops. I have said this for years this point, What we need is Indian companies making products catered to Indian soldiers.

We need to support companies like Tonbo, MKU, Alpha Design, SSS and off course 'Gearsmith'. You guys should reach out to Home Ministry/ Rajnath through contacts. I know over 500 cr is being allocated to help start ups in defense. Good luck in your endeavors. Jai Hind for your service.

 

[Immanuel]

Bro I am saying the Naga ghatak platoons could have done this opp. Or any of the Regs that train day in and day out for jungle operations and LRRP.

He just doesn't understand it.Indian SF is capable of much much more. In Sri Lanka they used to do 2-3 weeks ops in the jungle moving from village to village observing and reporting and then interdiction of LTTE in the jungle as and when they found them.

He thinks I am insulting the men because I called the Op a basic commando op executed to perfection.

I more than you two understand what Indian SF can do. You are the douches who keep disrespecting them. Heck even CRPF Cobra Commandos regularly spend 14 days in the jungles tracking and hunting maoists. All I am saying is that there is no need for being you tube warriors and needlessly compare. Most of the SF you guys compare ours to wouldnt be able to have perfect execution in a lot of mission profiles.

 

[India Super Power]

Many were laughing when I talked about live Indian SF Ops in Africa. Many still laugh when I say imported Gucci kit doesn't really work or isn't suitable in Indian terrain, climate etc. Many laugh at soldiers as being unaware of the Gucci kit or Western tactics, apparently you guys are all unpad gawars who speak rudimentary english or do only textbook ops. I have said this for years this point, What we need is Indian companies making products catered to Indian soldiers.

We need to support companies like Tonbo, MKU, Alpha Design, SSS and off course 'Gearsmith'. You guys should reach out to Home Ministry/ Rajnath through contacts. I know over 500 cr is being allocated to help start ups in defense. Good luck in your endeavors. Jai Hind for your service.

Very well and right quoted

 

[Gessler]

View attachment 63331

From @Unknowncommando 2 's post....

Please someone tell me I'm not dreaming... I'm fairly certain that that is a jugaad APC style plate carrier with a modified elastic cummerbund..
Finally a plate carrier folks..
@abingdonboy @rkhanna @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @Gessler

(APC= Adaptable Plate Carrier)

Me likey

Also I think he bought it on his own budget...

There were multiple pics in past of Indian personnel with some proper PCs...this isn't something unprecedented. The problem is that in every instance, it's a result of some ad-hoc purchase. When this stuff gets adopted far & wide in SF community, then that'd be something to look forward to.

Many still laugh when I say imported Gucci kit doesn't really work or isn't suitable in Indian terrain, climate etc.

Yea...

IWI
Colt
FAB Defense
TDI Arms
FALKE
Meprolight
SIG
Trijicon
EOTech
Schmidt & Bender

....these are all Indian companies. No wonder they work so well, all our SFs are using them. Somebody needs to tell them that phoren products, once brought into the Indian landmass, become a pile of crap.

 

[Immanuel]

Very well and right quoted

It's common sense really, very few countries have the population, the same level of diversity in threats, as diverse a terrain, climate, elevation, expanse. Hence all round Indian SF in terms of tactics, experience, ability will be far better than 90% is SF out there. I assure you Israeli SF (ferocious as they are) are not experts in Jungle or high altitude warfare just like Canadian SF aren't experts in desert warfare. Few SF globally have the rich training or experience that our people have. What is always needed and lacking is dedicated command, a blank cheque for all assets to be acquired that includes home made Pucci Gear.

 

[Gessler]

There were multiple pics in past of Indian personnel with some proper PCs...this isn't something unprecedented. The problem is that in every instance, it's a result of some ad-hoc purchase. When this stuff gets adopted far & wide in SF community, then that'd be something to look forward to.

@Killbot

An example -

 

[Immanuel]

There were multiple pics in past of Indian personnel with some proper PCs...this isn't something unprecedented. The problem is that in every instance, it's a result of some ad-hoc purchase. When this stuff gets adopted far & wide in SF community, then that'd be something to look forward to.



Yea...

IWI
Colt
FAB Defense
TDI Arms
FALKE
Meprolight
SIG
Trijicon
EOTech
Schmidt & Bender

....these are all Indian companies. No wonder they work so well, all our SFs are using them. Somebody needs to tell them that phoren products, once brought into the Indian landmass, become a pile of crap.

Perhaps I wasn't clear, I wasn't referring to weapon sights. For that, I think you would agree there has been the most progress. I was referring more to NVDs, uniforms, boots, etc.

 

[Gessler]

Perhaps I wasn't clear, I wasn't referring to weapon sights. For that, I think you would agree there has been the most progress. I was referring more to NVDs, uniforms, boots, etc.

15 years ago (around the time we first ordered them), Tavor was gucci gear.

I don't understand - why's it ok to buy gucci in 2005, but not in 2020? We are economically poorer today than 15 years ago? I don't think so.

This all just goes back to the same argument. "Whatever I have is the bezzt. Whatever I don't have is either crap and/or unnecessary". I assure you, back in 2000s, many like you would have scoffed at the need to buy a modern, expensive rifle like TAR-21 (note, it was MUCH costlier than M4s).

Same applies to all kinds of equipment. NVGs, armour etc.

We also need to acknowledge that there are certain niche sectors in the firearms/personal equipment industry where any non-American company, or any company that doesn't treat US as its primary market, is at a severe disadvantage when it comes to producing such stuff as firearm peripherals (grips, rails etc.), sights, PCs etc.

For the simple reason that nobody else in the world has such a huge civilian market & demand for such equipment - without which private ventures like these become economically unviable very quickly. Israeli companies have realized this, which is why they focus on US as primary market, and often produce most everything within US itself.

That's why we won't find a European or Russian equivalent of a company the size & scope of Magpul. Despite those countries having robust firearm production industry.

 

[Killbot]

I know that very well, but they do have knee and elbow pads, combat gloves and combat goggles standard for each soldier, we don’t.

All that is for photo ops. PLA soldiers do not get issued even ballistic protection. I'm not sure about the helmets, but vests are FLCs. Non ballistic. Our soldiers wear FLC, with hard armor panel inserts. Their winter jackets suck as well. Our soldiers don't have elbow or knee pads, but they at least have armor. Shit like that (arm knee pads) is useless if the soldiers are dead before they actually use it.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

I am no expert on firearms , but sig 716 should be the standard issue rifles.
And the barrel needs to be longer , it doesn't looks good to me .
Can slr be reintroduced in service with modernisation.

 

[Killbot]

@Unknowncommando 2 will Indian army consider Arad rifle as standard 5.56 assault rifle as I feel AK-203 rifles are effective in 300m range whereas 5.56 are effective in 500m range due to higher muzzle velocity, even Russian infantry doesn’t use 7.62x39 instead they use 5.45x39 high muzzle velocity cartridge, china uses 5.8x42 high muzzle velocity cartridge, US and NATO use 5.56x45 all countries use high muzzle velocity cartridged rifles, so do you think Arab will be our standard 5.56x45 mm rifle as they will be made in India.
View attachment 63334
I don’t know but I feel IA should have a standard optic mass produced in India, like US army’s standard optic is ACOG and Aimpoint COMP M5, will Indian Army go for 1-4x variable power scope for Indian small arms? As BEL holographic sight is presumed to be the standard reflex sight of the Army.

something kinda this (coz ACOGs are pretty damn expensive and cost even more than the rifle itself).View attachment 63335

Arad will likely compete in the carbine tender, which will be floated soon. It will be a shorter barrel version (10.5" to 12.5" range). Effective upto 300m.
The optic is a Primary arms 3x prism, I presume. Dope optic. I really hope IA goes for it. Best thing abt it is, it's really rugged. Prism optics are Kinda like the AKs of the optic world. Will survive Indian conditions. 17000 hour battery life for illuminated reticle. It can run even without illuminated reticle. So think of it as permanent. Costs abt $300ish. So better than $1500 ACOG for infantryman. Only disadvantage is that it is heavier than ACOG. FoV is also similar to ACOG. But why US army uses ACOG is because of low weight, obviously, and Night Vision capability.
But 3x prism optic is best for Infantry, especially considering Primary Arms offers it with 7.62*39 reticle.

 

[Killbot]

Many were laughing when I talked about live Indian SF Ops in Africa. Many still laugh when I say imported Gucci kit doesn't really work or isn't suitable in Indian terrain, climate etc. Many laugh at soldiers as being unaware of the Gucci kit or Western tactics, apparently you guys are all unpad gawars who speak rudimentary english or do only textbook ops. I have said this for years this point, What we need is Indian companies making products catered to Indian soldiers.

We need to support companies like Tonbo, MKU, Alpha Design, SSS and off course 'Gearsmith'. You guys should reach out to Home Ministry/ Rajnath through contacts. I know over 500 cr is being allocated to help start ups in defense. Good luck in your endeavors. Jai Hind for your service.

They're gucci BECAUSE they work in all sorts of conditions. Indian companies CAN make gucci gear for special operations forces. But they DON'T, yet. Except for Tonbo Imaging. You really should sit down and revisit who the unpaid gawar is. I hope I explained it in simple enough terms that your little pea sized brain could make sense of it.
Notes:
CAN= have the ability to.
DON'T= short for do not

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Arad will likely compete in the carbine tender, which will be floated soon. It will be a shorter barrel version (10.5" to 12.5" range). Effective upto 300m.
The optic is a Primary arms 3x prism, I presume. Dope optic. I really hope IA goes for it. Best thing abt it is, it's really rugged. Prism optics are Kinda like the AKs of the optic world. Will survive Indian conditions. 17000 hour battery life for illuminated reticle. It can run even without illuminated reticle. So think of it as permanent. Costs abt $300ish. So better than $1500 ACOG for infantryman. Only disadvantage is that it is heavier than ACOG. FoV is also similar to ACOG. But why US army uses ACOG is because of low weight, obviously, and Night Vision capability.
But 3x prism optic is best for Infantry, especially considering Primary Arms offers it with 7.62*39 reticle.

I think Galil ACE, is already under testing phase with the IA and will be the first choice than Arad, since Ace is field tested around the world, but time will tell.

 

[Killbot]

I think Galil ACE, is already under testing phase with the IA and will be the first choice than Arad, since Ace is field tested around the world, but time will tell.

Only if IWI-Adani or PLRS (what is it called?) fields ACE. I think they will field either Carmel or ARAD. Could be wrong. Other competitors are Caracal-MKU Car 816, Thales (local partner-?) F 90, SSSD(?), Astr defence or whatever.. and OFB, but you can count them out. I'd put my money on 816 as it was L1 last time. SSSD does not have a model in the 5.56 yet. The last one, we know nothing. And the Thales is an ugly piece of shit, not to mention bullpup. If the Thales F90 is selected, Indian army is screwed. They'll have to retrain soldiers on a bullpup rifle. (Not ideal). Training them on an AR-15 style platform is gonna be hard enough.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Only if IWI-Adani or PLRS (what is it called?) fields ACE. I think they will field either Carmel or ARAD. Could be wrong. Other competitors are Caracal-MKU Car 816, Thales (local partner-?) F 90, SSSD(?), Astr defence or whatever.. and OFB, but you can count them out. I'd put my money on 816 as it was L1 last time. SSSD does not have a model in the 5.56 yet. The last one, we know nothing. And the Thales is an ugly piece of shit, not to mention bullpup. If the Thales F90 is selected, Indian army is screwed. They'll have to retrain soldiers on a bullpup rifle. (Not ideal). Training them on an AR-15 style platform is gonna be hard enough.

Thales F90 is actually a good rifle, being used by the Aussie infantrymen, for an Infantry level it's a very capable one!
IWI is key for our carbine requirements since they field most number of items, and honestly anything the Israelis make is a big thumbs-up. We can use caracal for technology transfer and diplomatic levarage, like few carbines around 20-25% of the requirement, but still caracal 816 is an improved version of HK416, so I would bet on the quality of the rifle to be the best. All in all anything other than Indian vendors would do the job, since we need the technology transfer for future indegenous development and self sufficiency within 10 years!!

 

[abingdonboy]

View attachment 63315

First 2 definitely aren't SG then

10 PARA SF during Shopian Encounter along with 34 RR (JAT) & 178 Bn CRPF
View attachment 63319View attachment 63320

View attachment 63324View attachment 63323View attachment 63325
10 PARA SF from 4 July Arrah Encounter, Kulgam

The African militia have arrived


I don't mean to sound like a broken record but it's genuinely depressing to see this day in and day out now, India's most elite soldiers going into battle with school bags with no two soldiers looking even remotely uniform


There's relaxation in standards and then there is this nonsense. I don't know wtf is going on inside these SF btns but there's a clear discipline issue and this speaks very poorly of their leadership

They aren't able to issue entire units with the same basic kit in 2020 with $20BN/year?

I'm also surprised that these operators can be so in-disciplined when they take pride in being the best.


For reference a standard RR team:

Apparently SF training makes operators unable to do this

View attachment 63331

From @Unknowncommando 2 's post....

Please someone tell me I'm not dreaming... I'm fairly certain that that is a jugaad APC style plate carrier with a modified elastic cummerbund..
Finally a plate carrier folks..
@abingdonboy @rkhanna @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @Gessler

(APC= Adaptable Plate Carrier)

Me likey

Also I think he bought it on his own budget...

Plate carriers have been seen in bits and pieces all over the Indian security forces, not sure there's anything to get excited about here until it is standard issue across at least a btn

 

[Popeye]

Hey folks, What's your view about this ?
Proposal to Army: Cut ceremonies, canteen for better use of resources

 

[abingdonboy]

Many still laugh when I say imported Gucci kit doesn't really work or isn't suitable in Indian terrain, climate etc.

LMAO I've heard it all now.


This is the new myth to cling onto is it?

Anyway I won't even get into why this is so hilariously wrong but say you are right, what is the excuse for the constant flow of images we get of PARA (SF) all in mis-matched gear that is standard issue for other units? Do they keep getting faulty batches or something? Most CAPFs don't have this issue, they seem able to dress themselves appropriately and have uniformity across units.

What we need is Indian companies making products catered to Indian soldiers.

They exist, next

I am no expert on firearms , but sig 716 should be the standard issue rifles.
And the barrel needs to be longer , it doesn't looks good to me .
Can slr be reintroduced in service with modernisation.

16 inches isn't long enough for you? What do you want, 20 inches as a standard issue?