Indian Special Forces (archived)

[aditya g]

It's not their mandate - I don't see how or why Navy should be asked to handle J&K, when Para SF and SG are available for same. For the limited purpose in J&K MARCOS is doing fine, and where expected (at high seas) they are delivering as well.

These things are contradictory.

An SF unit deployed under a mix branch RR unit for experience?

30 years for experience?

When will they take up a bigger role..Are they CISF/BSF/SSB or a Special Force?

Until they grow and take up a bigger role its not possible.

21 Para was raised much much later than Marcos and 21 handles the entire fucking NE.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

It's not their mandate - I don't see how or why Navy should be asked to handle J&K, when Para SF and SG are available for same. For the limited purpose in J&K MARCOS is doing fine, and where expected (at high seas) they are delivering as well.

According to that logic Seals should not be in Afghanistan and Iraq..but they are.

Unless you are involved in battlefield and nit shooting some poor skinny on a wooden boat you will never be the best.

Para SFs are overburdened with ops in Kashmir.Why dont they get involved?

Its not their mandate then whose mandate is it?

Adityas mandate or COLDHEARTED s mandate?

You need officers to take care of such things and uniforms..officers with guts like Manekshaw.

Officers who dont worry about promotions and postings.

 

[ManhattanProject]

There is a permanent detachment of MARCOS in J&K

has anyone noticed how the marcos keep their finger behind the trigger rather than off it?

 

[aditya g]

If para SF is over burdended, then absolutely task MARCOS with more operations! I am also an advocate of NSG deploying to valley and release pressure from Para SF. I also support Garud SF taking on more roles.

However, there are 2 sides to the debate. The other side is repeatedly saying, why is Para SF being saddled with CICT ops?

So these debates are contradictory on the effect of ops tempo - and in the current arrangement, as things stand MARCOS is assigned a limited role in J&K and my point is they are being performed well.

You will see the kind of model which you want through AFSOD, or maybe when J&K is converted to Joint command.

Thank you.

...
Para SFs are overburdened with ops in Kashmir.Why dont they get involved?
...

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

If para SF is over burdended, then absolutely task MARCOS with more operations! I am also an advocate of NSG deploying to valley and release pressure from Para SF. I also support Garud SF taking on more roles.

However, there are 2 sides to the debate. The other side is repeatedly saying, why is Para SF being saddled with CICT ops?

So these debates are contradictory on the effect of ops tempo - and in the current arrangement, as things stand MARCOS is assigned a limited role in J&K and my point is they are being performed well.

You will see the kind of model which you want through AFSOD, or maybe when J&K is converted to Joint command.

Thank you.

I believe CI/CT ops are good exposure to better the tactics and get experience in combat coz the fog of war haunts everyone.But that can happen for Marcos only if that scale of ops are alloted to them.

Marcos officers should be going to GOC Norther command with requests to also be heli dropped in Kupwara like Para SF does.

I can make a pretty good guess that GOC might have some doubts but a professional unit can work with Para initallly and lateron work independently.

I also call for Garuds to take such roles.

There has been no unit in the history of the world which has been the best without shedding blood.

Look at Ghataks and 21 para...they are becoming world beaters only coz they have experience.

The sniper op by Marathali on LOC was praised by even the US SF community members saying it was one of the perfect sniper ops they saw.

If you dont go to the battlefield and do such ops like Para and Ghataks do on every Monday of their week then i am sorry the only place you will be best is on youtube videos.Experience has no substitute in this world.

Regarding NSG i am shocked they are making a base in Amritsar.Looks like everyone wants comfort here.I would have wanted them to have a base in Jammu or Srinagar where we still are having hostage situations.

It requires different breed of people to take these decisions.

 

[Bhadra]

I think what he meant was the intensity of operation.

It is one thing to be in Kashmir and another thing to be dropped out of a heli in Lolab and Hafruda.

Yar dost, You have not operated anywhere near the Valley....

Marcos are located at a very sensitive location with a purpose but they also do jungle bashing with equal zeal. They also do their MOUT operations. I, though, have not come across Guards doing that anywhere.. CRPF 's COBRAS remains thousands of miles away from the valley in spite of such a heavy CRPF deployment....

Secondly Rajwar, Afrooda or Lolab are not the places for heliborne ops... very rarely.... Those are the playgrounds of SF boys...

The best bet for the Valley is the local police which very badly infested with Jamities deliberately put in place by Farooq Abdullah and Mufti families. The J&K police SOG is good and effective. If these two organizations are handled well, RR will wipe out the Valley terrorists. Our SF and RR operate most of the time in the dark without proper intelligence> Jammaties and terrorist have completely wiped out intelligence network in the valley. That is their primary target.

Mr Vijay Kumar. IG Ops of J&K and Ajit Doval are absolutely correct in identifying key problems. The key to success in the valley is not a blind man's stick but needle of man who can look and see.

The CRPF int agencies and MI is almost dead in the valley... The SF guys are also fending for themselves in int collection.. Not a happy situation..

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Yar dost, You have not operated anywhere near the Valley....

Marcos are located at a very sensitive location with a purpose but they also do jungle bashing with equal zeal. They also do their MOUT operations. I, though, have not come across Guards doing that anywhere.. CRPF 's COBRAS remains thousands of miles away from the valley in spite of such a heavy CRPF deployment....

Secondly Rajwar, Afrooda or Lolab are not the places for heliborne ops... very rarely.... Those are the playgrounds of SF boys...

OK sir,

That place where they are deployed in no longer sensitive.And around that place they have done MOUT and Jungle ops.Used to have a terrorist camp at that place but i am talking about bigger roles for them on the LOC or Kupwara.

If there is any other place they are deployed i will love to know about that.I am not bashing them.Marcos in my opinion are very well trained.

CRPF COBRAs are handling Naxals and they have done their job very well.They will be overburdened if they do that in Kashmir too.

Garuds are also handling sensitive radar installations on the LOC but again i call for a bigger role for them.

 

[Bhadra]

OK sir,

That place where they are deployed in no longer sensitive.And around that place they have done MOUT and Jungle ops.Used to have a terrorist camp at that place but i am talking about bigger roles for them on the LOC or Kupwara.

If there is any other place they are deployed i will love to know about that.I am not bashing them.Marcos in my opinion are very well trained.

CRPF COBRAs are handling Naxals and they have done their job very well.They will be overburdened if they do that in Kashmir too.

Garuds are also handling sensitive radar installations on the LOC but again i call for a bigger role for them.

Asking Marcos to do ops on LOC etc would not be desirable. That may not be very useful to them. Ghatak and SF are best suited for LOC ops.

COBRA is a ten battalion force. Since there is so much CRPF there in the Valley they can look after ops in urban Srinagar. And why not ? The CRPF is designated counterinsurgency force of the Union and they are drawing hell lot of money on that account. They have become "Baithe Raho Pyare Force" in the valley drawing more allowances and perks than the Army.

Garuds should have been employed. Garud is not a security guard force for air marshalls. To be somewhere near SF they must be put through the cauldron. The tendency of IAF to remain aloof is not a good sign. Let the Guards also kiss the mother earth.

 

[another_armchair]

Rest assured, "The Frogmen" have operated beyond our borders and beyond our continent too.

They are considered one of the most ruthless and tough sons of ****** around, respected by SF's within India and those who know them.

They can't be awarded medals or citations for undertaking assignments beyond our borders and they are really nonchalant about it.

They are very special and the lengths to which our Govt. went to ensure we had one of theirs to keep ours safe in their custody shows there is a reason why the top guys in our 'Establishment' have the backs of our frogmen.

The lesser we know, the better. As for 'them', they know the daadhi waale faujis can be just as lethal without their ubiquitous beard.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Rest assured, "The Frogmen" have operated beyond our borders and beyond our continent too.

They are considered one of the most ruthless and tough sons of ****** around, respected by SF's within India and those who know them.

They can't be awarded medals or citations for undertaking assignments beyond our borders and they are really nonchalant about it.

They are very special and the lengths to which our Govt. went to ensure we had one of theirs to keep ours safe in their custody shows there is a reason why the top guys in our 'Establishment' have the backs of our frogmen.

The lesser we know, the better. As for 'them', they know the daadhi waale faujis can be just as lethal without their ubiquitous beard.

They must be deaing with RAW on a individual deployment basis.

I can assure you no teams from Navy are operating coz there are some other teams deployed and by another branch.

Without local support chain and infrastructure no one can deploy teams anywhere.

Its not like one fine day you wake up and deploy teams and then take them away.

Army and Raw have a good presence in Kashmir(pok) and other areas.

 

[another_armchair]

They must be deaing with RAW on a individual deployment basis.

I can assure you no teams from Navy are operating coz there are some other teams deployed and by another branch.

Without local support chain and infrastructure no one can deploy teams anywhere.

Its not like one fine day you wake up and deploy teams and then take them away.

Army and Raw have a good presence in Kashmir(pok) and other areas.

If your neighbors neighbor invites you to stay for a short period, tells you to make yourself comfortable, treat it like your own home, get some close friends along, enjoy the barrenness, the desolation, the weather, the food, add to all this, a good hunting expedition now and then for a small fee or in exchange for something they need. Few would want to pass up on that opportunity.

Then you have a close cousin who lives in another continent. He tells your boss there's good work to be done here, especially expanding business, opening new branches.

Your boss tells you to quit your job, take your young wife and settle down, look innocuous, do business, get in touch with traders, see how you can make yourself useful and continue to earn a respectable living and ensure your tribe grows as your old colleagues are eager to join you. After all, the beaches are pristine and you can go diving whenever you wish.

 

[Freezer Dam]

They must be deaing with RAW on a individual deployment basis.

I can assure you no teams from Navy are operating coz there are some other teams deployed and by another branch.

Without local support chain and infrastructure no one can deploy teams anywhere.

Its not like one fine day you wake up and deploy teams and then take them away.

Army and Raw have a good presence in Kashmir(pok) and other areas.

 

[Waanar]

Let me put all of y'all's worry to rest-
MARCOS are extremely active in at least one foreign country I know of and their missions, from what I deduced, are risky albeit not combative in nature.

That's all.
@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR sir is probably right when he says they might be working under RAW and not the Navy but they ARE doing critical stuff and their lessons learned will probably be institutionalized across the entire spectrum of Indian SOFs.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

SPECIAL forces???

 

[Waanar]

SPECIAL forces???

MARCOS in Kashmir from an encounter last year.

 

[abingdonboy]

MARCOS Defence Expo 2020
View attachment 47518View attachment 47519View attachment 47520

So basically aside from a few new helmets here and there MARCOs have seen very little updates since 2011.

What i feel sad about is..

30 years almost in Kashmir and not even 1 op which is considered a high threat operation ie Loc raids,Helidrop in Hafruda or Lolab,hostage rescue etc.

There might be 2 things..either Marcos dont want to engage there Or the IA has no trust and only thinks Para or Ghataks should do this.

It’s an ego issue.

NSG are deployed to JK but army has never once called them in, thinking they can do everything themselves. Then debacles like EDI and Handwara happen but oh well.....

We have to see MARCOS role in J&K in the proper context, and not make direct comparisons to Para SF.

MARCOS are essentially deployed under 15 RR AOR and perform a CI/CT role in and around Wullar lake. The same is true for Garud as well - their deployment there is essentially to support 13 RR. SFF is also deployed in J&K at Siachen in infantry role.

Simply, Para SF and i suppose Special Group are the pre-eminent SF in J&K and that is acceptable given that the reason why MARCOS and Garuds are present is to gain experience. Within this mission there are number of good operations performed by MARCOS in J&K - example;

View attachment 47555

When it matters, MARCOS have performed classic Naval SF ops as well, example in Yemen where they were went in silently ahead of INS Sumitra and secured the jetty before calling her in;

View attachment 47556

One of the few legitimate SF Ops MARCOs have been able to undertake in the last decade.


It’s always tragic to see MARCOs training with Russian Marines or Royal Navy marines. These aren’t SF units and the respective units have naval SF but don’t seem to send them to these Exs like the US does to train with PARA (SF)

Similarly there are MARCOs detachments deployed to ships deployed in the gulf of Aden for anti-Piracy but VBSS is hardly a SF mission.


I guess this is where AFSOD does create a legitimate SF capability sort of a “tier one” unit

 

[Assassin 2.0]

But when we call SF for coin operations then you guy's that is the role for ghataks and other RR quick action teams ?

 

[aditya g]

But when we call SF for coin operations then you guy's that is the role for ghataks and other RR quick action teams ?

I think all of us are guilty of wandering into these logical traps at one time or the other. One hand we want SF to do truly special operations, but then we know that CICT ops are good for experience, but moment they sucked in there we feel Ghataks should be doing the job.

My own view is that;

- SFs have to fight the wars we are fighting.
- There is of plenty of "war" for everyone to have a fair share
- There are plenty of SF units - SF, SG, Archers, NSG, MARCOS, Garuds etc
- No harm in letting these units fight CICT, but a portion of this capability should be kept in reserve at any point for true special ops, with money no bar.

You need just one or max 2 full battalions of Para SF and elements of Garuds and MARCOS to keep up an effective tempo of special ops in J&K.

PS: I am not sure everyone knows that Army has raised one full time SF aviation unit 301 Army Aviation Squadron (Special Operations)

 

[Lupus]

I am not sure everyone knows that Army has raised one full time SF aviation unit 301 Army Aviation Squadron (Special

It was a good step. But what assets does 301 have, other than dhruvs ?

 

[Freezer Dam]

So basically aside from a few new helmets here and there MARCOs have seen very little updates since 2011.



It’s an ego issue.

NSG are deployed to JK but army has never once called them in, thinking they can do everything themselves. Then debacles like EDI and Handwara happen but oh well.....


One of the few legitimate SF Ops MARCOs have been able to undertake in the last decade.


It’s always tragic to see MARCOs training with Russian Marines or Royal Navy marines. These aren’t SF units and the respective units have naval SF but don’t seem to send them to these Exs like the US does to train with PARA (SF)

Similarly there are MARCOs detachments deployed to ships deployed in the gulf of Aden for anti-Piracy but VBSS is hardly a SF mission.


I guess this is where AFSOD does create a legitimate SF capability sort of a “tier one” unit

What we are realising now that to deal with hostage situation we have different type of special units like NSG,SF,or MARCOS but a minimum lack of coordination we just lost a CO @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR ,@rkhanna
Every operation is itself a goldmine of experience for our forces...