Indian Special Forces (archived)

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COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

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Vishnu Som



Heartbreaking yes but awe inspiring too- I couldn’t walk even 20 metres in these conditions and here are these guys trekking along with full packs, a full battle load and their rifles to go fight an unknown enemy.

It’s utterly remarkable that such men even exist


I know ghataks have been attached to SF teams in the past but I don’t think this is commonplace and it would take a shift in doctrine for this to become the norm. As it stands Ghatak numbers aren’t sufficient to have them used in this role on a continuous basis.

as for the trap element, I wouldn’t put it past them- Paki BAT are known to do these sorts of things and have a long history of it.
The problem is that Para SF guys wouldnt operate with Ghataks or regulars thinking they are superior.

They have their invincible attitude and only trust their own.

I am just thinking what if a few Ghatak platoons were also taken ...could the outcome be different.

As it is coming out that..the last terroist was shot first..and the 4 have died fighting our 5 operators.
 

Lancer

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This is ill-informed nonsense based on a liar’s (Marcus Lutteral) account.


There’s ample evidence out there that tells a very different story

1) the SEALS were not trained in mountain warfare and did not take sensible precautions from the outset (took improper comns equipment, 4 men when this should’ve been a job for a recon platoon etc etc) apparently SEALS are quite well known to have this gung-ho and reckless approach
2) the SEALS were compromised from the moment they landed (not by the goat herders) they landed only about 1 mile from the population centre and they failed to hide the fast ropes and then were tracked by the terrorists using their distinctive boot prints (again sloppy tactics and pathetic execution)
3) once in contact the QRF launched without proper authorisation and no air cover


Like I said in my post before- sh!t happens, combat is a messy business, sometimes you win, sometimes they do.


Long story short- 8-10 “goat herders” took out some of the most elite warriors the US has;the most “elite” can be killed just as easily as anyone else if/when circumstances conspire against you or you make them
1) Not trained in Mountain Warfare? They'd been operating in AFG since '01, and were engaging in major battles from '02. Op RW was all the way around '05.

2) This is a claim by the guy who rescued Luttrell, who - it is known by now - had a massive case of sour grapes/falling out w/ Luttrell over various things like money, promises etc

There are some legitimate criticisms by a Marine associated w/ the planning of the Op, but I don't see that as enough in itself to completely discount the version of the guy who was actually there.

3) They took a risk to save their teammates - various Armies have examples of that, including India's. Forget helping the living, we literally lost guys in Kargil trying to recover dead bodies of fellow soldiers.
 

aditya g

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Looking at terrain, weather, proximity to LoC and facing heavily armed, trained and equipped opponent, this definitely looks like a good candidate for a SF operation. These were not 2-rupees kashmiri jehadi wannabes visiting girlfriends in the village ...

CI/CT forms 99% of our operations - if Special Forces are not involved in the same, where will be the motivation to man, train and equip an elite force? A more reasonable argument would be to always keep say 1-2 battalion in reserve at peace posting.

About air power - it has limited endurance, for an op lasting days how many sorties and uptime will you waste on this day in day out? This is just one of hundreds of ops J&K.

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @abingdonboy @rkhanna
 

Sridhar_TN

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1) Not trained in Mountain Warfare? They'd been operating in AFG since '01, and were engaging in major battles from '02. Op RW was all the way around '05.

2) This is a claim by the guy who rescued Luttrell, who - it is known by now - had a massive case of sour grapes/falling out w/ Luttrell over various things like money, promises etc

There are some legitimate criticisms by a Marine associated w/ the planning of the Op, but I don't see that as enough in itself to completely discount the version of the guy who was actually there.

3) They took a risk to save their teammates - various Armies have examples of that, including India's. Forget helping the living, we literally lost guys in Kargil trying to recover dead bodies of fellow soldiers.
Marcus luttrells accounts had various factual flaws. Example: he claimed there were about 200 tangos closing in on them. Post op investigation concluded the size to about 26. It was clear to a lot of people that his statements could not be corroborated.
They were given away because the chinooks carrying them could be heard easily by the local villagers. Not the goat herders like Marcus claimed. In fact, it was discovered that the tangos has started their ambush patrol long before the goat herders were caught by the seals. when you’re ambushed in such terrain, no matter how hard you’ve trained, there’s only so much you can do to protect yourself. Think about it. The worlds most elite operating unit, taken down by warlord militias. And in trying to rescue them another chinook with seals and airborne rescue SF went down. That was a clusterf*** of an operation. And it was just one case. There are quite a number of operations like that. The only reason this specific case gained such popularity was because of the Afghan local who protected him.
The main factor for SF around the world which makes them so special is the element of surprise. Once that’s gone, you’re like a well trained infantry man, albeit with better gear.
 
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Lancer

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Marcus luttrells accounts had various factual flaws. Example: he claimed there were about 200 tangos closing in on them. Post op investigation concluded the size to about 26. It was clear to a lot of people that his statements could not be corroborated.
They were given away because the chinooks carrying them could be heard easily by the local villagers. Not the goat herders like Marcus claimed. In fact, it was discovered that the tangos has started their ambush patrol long before the goat herders were caught by the seals. when you’re ambushed in such terrain, no matter how hard you’ve trained, there’s only so much you can do to protect yourself. Think about it. The worlds most elite operating unit, taken down by warlord militias. And in trying to rescue them another chinook with seals and airborne rescue SF went down. That was a clusterf*** of an operation. And it was just one case. There are quite a number of operations like that. The only reason this specific case gained such popularity was because of the Afghan local who protected him.
The main factor for SF around the world which makes them so special is the element of surprise. Once that’s gone, you’re like a well trained infantry man, albeit with better gear.
> Without a doubt the 200 tangos claim was bogus. Though with an elevation advantage + PKMs - they likely felt like far more than 30 combatants.

> Gulab (the guy who saved Luttrell) claimed they were ambushed as soon as they let the locals go; that timing cannot be corroborated. Real time was probably closer to an hour as per other accounts.

> Yes, SF guys are ultimately human; though if we're going to draw a parallel to India's case - it's even worse to lose SF guys in routine counter insurgency against Paki terrorists within your own territory after having prior info + a CI grid and everything else that entails on your side.

Very different from botching a difficult op (including infil + exfil) against a Taliban HVT in a hostile country.

> Regarding other Ops, if we're talking about the SEALs - I could find a total of 55 casualties over the last two decades in Afghanistan. I was aware of the detailed breakdown on 40 of those - 4 were in active combat (Neil Roberts @ Takur Ghar and the 3 who died in Op RW). 8 died in the helicopter shot down during Op Red Wings, 3 died in a Black Hawk crash in 2010, 25 went down in a Chinook shootdown from 2011. Don't know about the other 15.

But this figure includes anyone in *any* role/capacity with the SEALs. And regardless of whether they died in a vehicle accident, heli shootdown, active combat or something else.

As per the Navy SEAL foundation, the total list of casualties (again, any role/capacity and any circumstances) in all Ops across the globe since 2001 is 71. Any additional figures are welcome.
 

Sridhar_TN

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> Without a doubt the 200 tangos claim was bogus. Though with an elevation advantage + PKMs - they likely felt like far more than 30 combatants.

> Gulab (the guy who saved Luttrell) claimed they were ambushed as soon as they let the locals go; that timing cannot be corroborated. Real time was probably closer to an hour as per other accounts.

> Yes, SF guys are ultimately human; though if we're going to draw a parallel to India's case - it's even worse to lose SF guys in routine counter insurgency against Paki terrorists within your own territory after having prior info + a CI grid and everything else that entails on your side.

Very different from botching a difficult op (including infil + exfil) against a Taliban HVT in a hostile country.

> Regarding other Ops, if we're talking about the SEALs - I could find a total of 55 casualties over the last two decades in Afghanistan. I was aware of the detailed breakdown on 40 of those - 4 were in active combat (Neil Roberts @ Takur Ghar and the 3 who died in Op RW). 8 died in the helicopter shot down during Op Red Wings, 3 died in a Black Hawk crash in 2010, 25 went down in a Chinook shootdown from 2011. Don't know about the other 15.

But this figure includes anyone in *any* role/capacity with the SEALs. And regardless of whether they died in a vehicle accident, heli shootdown, active combat or something else.

As per the Navy SEAL foundation, the total list of casualties (again, any role/capacity and any circumstances) in all Ops across the globe since 2001 is 71. Any additional figures are welcome.
Again, they’re not losing this battle in a fire fight. This was extraordinary circumstances , that a snow covered holding gave away and the paras were tumbling down. This chalks up to be pure accident.

Technicaly there is no comparison here. Para SF cannot be compared to Seals. Not by training, not by MO.
 

Lancer

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Again, they’re not losing this battle in a fire fight. This was extraordinary circumstances , that a snow covered holding gave away and the paras were tumbling down. This chalks up to be pure accident.

Technicaly there is no comparison here. Para SF cannot be compared to Seals. Not by training, not by MO.
I know, after reading an early article on the subject in Economic Times - I realized that this was truly horrible luck. Though I'm personally against using Paras in CI unless there's a HVT involved.

I'm talking more about Paras taking casualties in CI overall.
 

IndiaRising

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I know, after reading an early article on the subject in Economic Times - I realized that this was truly horrible luck. Though I'm personally against using Paras in CI unless there's a HVT involved.

I'm talking more about Paras taking casualties in CI overall.
what would be the appropriate response from our side? I dont think the death of 5 our top operators can be avenged by mere fire assaults on LoC.
 

Lancer

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what would be the appropriate response from our side? I dont think the death of 5 our top operators can be avenged by mere fire assaults on LoC.
I agree with you, it's nowhere close to enough; I want something absolutely fucking wild in exchange. But let's see what the leadership approves. I'm not holding my breath.

As I said on another thread - in my opinion, 5 SF guys warrants not just a severe reaction from our SF (I'm talking double digit SSG casualties + heads and various gruesome barbaric acts to send a message) - but also heavy artillery assault + limited use of IAF along LoC to hit several Paki positions like we did in 2002.

Additionally, the Pakis can either sit back and take it, or take the bait and give us a chance to score some A2A kills.
 

Snowcat

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At these extremely close quarters (less than 50m) 7.62*39 bullets will rip through all body armour currently in service anywhere on this planet.

plus there’s always that trade off of bulk vs protection- it’s not practical for these kind of high speed operators to be wearing EOD bomb suits when they are ripping through forests, jungles and mountains.


Practically speaking once they were in this position body armour could not have saved them- no unit in the world would’ve been safe.



like you noted above cordons can always be slipped, you need to take the fight to the terrorist, a passive wait and watch approach will only lead to more lives lost in the long run.


Also reading Shiv Aroor’s article it is clear the cordon and search option was taken first but after a few days when the exact location of the terrorists could not be determined the SFs were called in and this was the right call imo. Sending in an infantry unit under these circumstances could’ve been horrific.


like i said, these tactics have been successful to date but you can’t always win.
I am almost sure that ceramic Armor used by US forces can pretty much Stop an ak47 round even at 30 metres. It should be able to take multiple hits before it renders useless as ceramic plates do break into smaller pieces after getting hit and mostly those pigs operate 7.62*39 rather than .308
 

Sridhar_TN

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I know, after reading an early article on the subject in Economic Times - I realized that this was truly horrible luck. Though I'm personally against using Paras in CI unless there's a HVT involved.

I'm talking more about Paras taking casualties in CI overall.
Right. Technically RR should perform these tasks.
I am almost sure that ceramic Armor used by US forces can pretty much Stop an ak47 round even at 30 metres. It should be able to take multiple hits before it renders useless as ceramic plates do break into smaller pieces after getting hit and mostly those pigs operate 7.62*39 rather than .308
I agree with you, it's nowhere close to enough; I want something absolutely fucking wild in exchange. But let's see what the leadership approves. I'm not holding my breath.

As I said on another thread - in my opinion, 5 SF guys warrants not just a severe reaction from our SF (I'm talking double digit SSG casualties + heads and various gruesome barbaric acts to send a message) - but also heavy artillery assault + limited use of IAF along LoC to hit several Paki positions like we did in 2002.

Additionally, the Pakis can either sit back and take it, or take the bait and give us a chance to score some A2A kills.
Going forward, it would be prudent to invest in CI gear heavily. Thermal imagers via Rudras or drones for evry operation. Heartbeat sensors for the foot soldier as well as thermal imagers. These tools could provide valuable/guaranteed success rates. Still remember, it was 2003 in the US. When local cops used heartbeat sensors to locate a wanted criminal hiding in the jungles. Local cops.
 

Bleh

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Question:

How much difference would a quad drone with thermal sight have made (op may be switched to nighttime)?
 

MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00

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I am thinking , is't hard enough for these handler to brainwash them in thinking that they would go to jannat anyway whatever we do to their body?

I mean, NATO , USA fighting war in Afghanistan for decades and they are blasting and roastic their bodies off with their thermobaric weapons , but Taliban have no shortage of headless zombies

Pakjabi elites have no shortage of aimless, oportunity less inbred youth in their country , and they can change the book the way the want to suit their warfare
US is ruthless when dealing with Terrorists but even they have to follow the rules of engagement. Like not targeting “civilians” even if they have Talibani Terrorists hiding among them. One more I like to add is that US bombing Isn’t bombing them for some religious reason like blocking them from reaching 72 Hoors it’s political reasons. In the US church and state are separate. For the Terrorists of PorkiShitan and Trashmiri this fight isn’t just political but also a religious jihadi war against non-Believers especially they want to see the destruction of Hindus and there Bharat.
 

Sridhar_TN

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they fought with fractured bones:hail:

also, read at multiple places(another member here also wrote i think ), that 2or3 were trainees:eek1:
if the trainees r this tough(we all know they r tough as hell) then what abt the experienced devils?

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US is ruthless when dealing with Terrorists but even they have to follow the rules of engagement. Like not targeting “civilians” even if they have Talibani Terrorists hiding among them. One more I like to add is that US bombing Isn’t bombing them for some religious reason like blocking them from reaching 72 Hoors it’s political reasons. In the US church and state are separate. For the Terrorists of PorkiShitan and Trashmiri this fight isn’t just political but also a religious jihadi war against non-Believers especially they want to see the destruction of Hindus and there Bharat.
Just to clarify a point you made there. US regular forces have to follow roe.
There is a special program. Run by the CIA. Operated by usaf drone pilots. Essentially USAF acting like a contractor. This program has no ROE at all. You will be dumbfounded by their MO. Mind numbing.
Just one excerpt: engage a place known to have a wanted target and engage regardless of civilian presence as target is high value.
Once target is destroyed, wait for a few minutes until individuals gather to pick up the bodies. Then fire in the same spot again to ensure all possible connections to the target are destroyed.
 
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