Indian Special Forces (archived)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Suryavanshi

Cheeni KLPDhokebaaz
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
Messages
16,330
Likes
70,185
Btw what is garud suppose to do?

We can't have a bunch of different named sf without defining their purpose and role?

From what I can see the garuds are currently a Cosplay force.
 

ArgonPrime

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Messages
1,344
Likes
2,024
Country flag
Btw what is garud suppose to do?

We can't have a bunch of different named sf without defining their purpose and role?

From what I can see the garuds are currently a Cosplay force.
I think their stated primary role is CSAR and base security but in practice, it's what you said - Cosplaying that is.
 

rkhanna

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
3,307
Likes
12,282
Country flag
I think their stated primary role is CSAR and base security but in practice, it's what you said - Cosplaying that is.
Stated Role by the Raising and Training Cadre

- Joint Tactical Air Controllers
- CSAR / Para rescue
- Counter Inflitration
- SEAD/DEAD
- Force Protection
- LRRP

Stated Role by Operational Command

- Base Protection
- CSAR
- COIN (kashmir) - is to only give them experience.


The issue with Garuds is the same issue that plaques SF and MARCOS - Conventional Commanders dont know what they should be doing with them.
 

rone

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Messages
951
Likes
3,108
Country flag
Stated Role by the Raising and Training Cadre

- Joint Tactical Air Controllers
- CSAR / Para rescue
- Counter Inflitration
- SEAD/DEAD
- Force Protection
- LRRP

Stated Role by Operational Command

- Base Protection
- CSAR
- COIN (kashmir) - is to only give them experience.


The issue with Garuds is the same issue that plaques SF and MARCOS - Conventional Commanders dont know what they should be doing with them.
I think in every thread I have to post a detailed explanations about pur military structure or operations ( declassified ones)

OK let's do it,
1: every special force even para sf macro's or garuds ment a specific role yes they have some common or over lapping responsibility but it doesn't mean they are common in all operational theaters, example para sf mostly exprinced in deployment of deep behind enemy lines and surgical strike but they can't be employed for qrf on hijacked ship or search and rescue of a downed pilot in enemy territory, like wise macros also specialised in water born action like stealth deployment or quick area deny access to some of enemy costal installations or distortion of their operation, when come to garud they have functions like search and rescue ( trained with Israel counterparts also with French ones in past) ,seizure of enemy asset's like forward landing strip's or communication relay nodes etc , active and passive recon behind lines,

What we have to look here these special group have their on expertise and experience in their on relam also they have so much in commonality like doing COIN ops but it doesn't mean they all follows similar tactics and training etc, they deployed in COIN ops becoz its target rich and real life operations to enhance their skills ( even they took casualties in earlier but now they mastering the situations) about equipment and modernization in sf yes they are not in NATO standards but it never reduce their lethality also carrying light quarter zip b.vests and other stuff make them to highly maneuverabil sepc op unit, the com's they are not computer head sets they may look like one but in my knowledge I never saw a computer headset can work on dust, humid and wet conditions all along with out any failures, they are mil garde but they lack looks that u guys like, we slowly but steadily growing and modernizing our forces and about ak203 I have new info which may or may not be classified in nature but I will share or shreds abt that when need arises
 
Last edited:

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
I don't understand Garud at all.

They are supposed to rescue downed pilot behind enemy lines yet they are no where deployed on the LOC.

They are deployed close to LOC but that is for protection of radar installations.

So, if we lose a pilot like Abhinandan in POK who will resuce him and when they are rescued how will they bring him back?

As the expertise to operate in that region is only with Para who know all the routes by heart.
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
I don't understand Garud at all.

They are supposed to rescue downed pilot behind enemy lines yet they are no where deployed on the LOC.

They are deployed close to LOC but that is for protection of radar installations.

So, if we lose a pilot like Abhinandan in POK who will resuce him and when they are rescued how will they bring him back?

As the expertise to operate in that region is only with Para who know all the routes by heart.
How dare you?

Jai ho Jai ho... teri ma... teri behn...

india zindabad..muslim murdabad!!!!!

Congress corrupt neta sale...


And pineapple on pizza ki jai!!
 

Bleh

Laughing member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
6,237
Likes
26,077
Country flag
How dare you?

Jai ho Jai ho... teri ma... teri behn...

india zindabad..muslim murdabad!!!!!

Congress corrupt neta sale...


And pineapple on pizza ki jai!!
Aren't the Garuds right now basically to protect air-bases from paratrooper or commando attacks.
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
Aren't the Garuds right now basically to protect air-bases from paratrooper or commando attacks.
Thats true.

Majority of the cream is utilised for that in J&K and Punjab.

They are not deployed on LOC..like lets say brigade headquarters of the army.

If our pilot lets say xyz is shot and manages to escape in the forests..asks for quick evac..my question is will they send Garuds from Chandigarh or Delhi?

Because Garuds dont have reserve in Kashmir.

Whats the plan?
 

Bleh

Laughing member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
6,237
Likes
26,077
Country flag
Thats true.

Majority of the cream is utilised for that in J&K and Punjab.

They are not deployed on LOC..like lets say brigade headquarters of the army.

If our pilot lets say xyz is shot and managed to escape in the forests..asks for quick evac..my question is will they send Garuds from Chandigarh or Delhi?

Because Garuds dont have reserve in Kashmir.

Whats the plan?
Neither. Paras or Marcos active there I think... Garuds are like the NSG right now, to defend against attacks, not the other way around.

Won't all Paras, Marcos, Garuds be fused under the joint command?
 
Last edited:

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
Neither. Paras or Marcos active there I think... Garuds are like the NSG right now, defend against attacks nor the other way around.

Won't all Paras, Marcos, Garuds be fused under the joint command?
Marcos have a very very limited role around Srinagar.

I dont know now how the joint command will turn up. Lets wait and watch.
 

rkhanna

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
3,307
Likes
12,282
Country flag
1: every special force even para sf macro's or garuds ment a specific role yes they have some common or over lapping responsibility but it doesn't mean they are common in all operational theaters, example para sf mostly exprinced in deployment of deep behind enemy lines and surgical strike but they can't be employed for qrf on hijacked ship or search and rescue of a downed pilot in enemy territory, like wise macros also specialised in water born action like stealth deployment or quick area deny access to some of enemy costal installations or distortion of their operation, when come to garud they have functions like search and rescue ( trained with Israel counterparts also with French ones in past) ,seizure of enemy asset's like forward landing strip's or communication relay nodes etc , active and passive recon behind lines,
Well nobody here disputes the above. SEAD/DEAD is what Garud trains for. Their effectiveness has been demonstrated multiple times including Red Flag. I have also born witness to a Garud Validation Ex where Garud out of a C-130 with Paratroopers overran an OpFor Airstrip. Set up an Adhoc ATC and made it operational as a FARP for IAF assets in under 60 mins.

But that is not how the IAF Brass chooses to employ them. The Concept of 1 unit on deployment, 1 in reserve and 1 in training is not always being maintained. Does Garud maintain a ready unit with Air Assets for CSAR? the LOC is a defacto war zone. The only other country that faces such an active border is Israel. Unit 669 (??) readiness is at a whole different level and they arnt guarding Air Installations unless there is specific intelligence to do so.

What we have to look here these special group have their on expertise and experience in their on relam also they have so much in commonality like doing COIN ops but it doesn't mean they all follows similar tactics and training etc, they deployed in COIN ops becoz its target rich and real life operations to enhance their skills ( even they took casualties in earlier but now they mastering the situations) about equipment and modernization in sf yes they are not in NATO standards but it never reduce their lethality also carrying light quarter zip b.vests and other stuff make them to highly maneuverabil sepc op unit, the com's they are not computer head sets they may look like one but in my knowledge I never saw a computer headset can work on dust, humid and wet conditions all along with out any failures, they are mil garde but they lack looks that u guys like, we slowly but steadily growing and modernizing our forces and about ak203 I have new info which may or may not be classified in nature but I will share or shreds abt that when need arises
Yes none of the units follow similar tactics and training. From a different lens this is institutional failure. There is no comprehensive data bank / knowledge center for SOF operations to pass through to future generations. No/poor Institutional memory. A MARCOS Sniper is hard pressed to support a SF team - their SOPs are all different. There is a desperate need for a unified SOF effort but that has to start inside CDS/Service HQs.

Secondly - the casualties (type off) that SOF took in COIN through the 2000s and into the '10s were uncalled for SOF units. High Density Low Value COIN operations will ALWAYS result in Casualties. SOF has to be operating smarter - SOF has been in the valley since the 90s. has been in Sri Lanka through the 80s and has done a shitload of work in the 70s. Where did all those experiences go that we had to relearn in the 2000s?!!!!!! I see this as a Command Failure.

Again - Kit is not about "Standards" - Its has way more to do with the employment of them.

Our comms are so outdated that we cannot fight underground, our NVGs so old only point men are given them. Most CQC execution is still done in early light conditions. We have no concept of using Supressors to lesson the noise on the battlefield nor ear protection headphones. I am not even going to mention new Gen Flash Bangs, Medical Kits, Cutting and Demo tools. Hell we have great designated marksmen but yet to build up a true blue
sniper capability. Not even going to bring in the efficacy of Air Assets to ferry and cover our SOF forces.

All the above are not fancy toys to do the same job the same way. Its to give them an overwhelming edge over any OPFOR when heavily outnumbered. New Kit means new tactics means evolved training. Hell out static and dynamic shooting techniques have not evolved in 30 years (baring the NSG). So yes their lethality is definitely limited to what they COULD be able to do. We are not comparing them to what they did in the past, we are comparing them to counter parts in the present and what they can do given their own potential.

The men of our SOF units (SF/Marcos/Garud) are in terms of human resources some of the best quality of soldiers on the planet who are repeatedly led down by Command - Training, resources, tasking.

Again its not about any one specific piece of kit or mindless comparison to any "Western TFTA" unit. Its a mindset that has eluded our military command and MoD for nearly half a century.

All my hopes for this SOD experiment. but not holding my breath.
 

abingdonboy

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
8,084
Likes
33,801
Country flag
what do u think garud force is for??? to watch mujra performed by surrendered porkie soldier..¿¿¿
Contrary to popular beliefs, one of the main roles of Garuds is NOT base protection. They do this role for a few strategic airbases but their remit is FAR greater than that.

They are akin to USAF Pararescue/Special Tactics Squadrons in role (capability is nowhere close of course)
I don't understand Garud at all.

They are supposed to rescue downed pilot behind enemy lines yet they are no where deployed on the LOC.

They are deployed close to LOC but that is for protection of radar installations.

So, if we lose a pilot like Abhinandan in POK who will resuce him and when they are rescued how will they bring him back?

As the expertise to operate in that region is only with Para who know all the routes by heart.
To be fair this is because of the IAF's limited (non-existent) specialised vertical lift capability. Really the IAF needs something like the CH148 or CV-22 for this role- long range and high speed.


It actually doesn't make sense for Garuds to be based on the LOC, they aren't going to cross on foot to rescue a downed pilot. Watch the videos on the USAF's Pararescue (PJs) their SOPs are to travel in packs of 2-3 helos (HH-60 Pavehawks) supported by a C-130 special mission aircraft (that can refuel the HH-60s). The name of the game is speed. When the US lost a F15 during the Libyan air campaign they sent in Marine Raiders (elite sub-unit of USMC) in MV-22s. Garuds need to be co-located with aviation assets for rapid mobilisation and the ability to go somewhat deep into enemy territory.


For what it's worth, after the Mi-17 friendly fire incident last year the first armed forces personnel on the scene were an IAF CSAR team.
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
Contrary to popular beliefs, one of the main roles of Garuds is NOT base protection. They do this role for a few strategic airbases but their remit is FAR greater than that.

They are akin to USAF Pararescue/Special Tactics Squadrons in role (capability is nowhere close of course)


To be fair this is because of the IAF's limited (non-existent) specialised vertical lift capability. Really the IAF needs something like the CH148 or CV-22 for this role- long range and high speed.


It actually doesn't make sense for Garuds to be based on the LOC, they aren't going to cross on foot to rescue a downed pilot. Watch the videos on the USAF's Pararescue (PJs) their SOPs are to travel in packs of 2-3 helos (HH-60 Pavehawks) supported by a C-130 special mission aircraft (that can refuel the HH-60s). The name of the game is speed. When the US lost a F15 during the Libyan air campaign they sent in Marine Raiders (elite sub-unit of USMC) in MV-22s. Garuds need to be co-located with aviation assets for rapid mobilisation and the ability to go somewhat deep into enemy territory.


For what it's worth, after the Mi-17 friendly fire incident last year the first armed forces personnel on the scene were an IAF CSAR team.
So you assume Pakis wont use any SAM or any air power to counter the bird we send to rescue the pilot.

Also,how would you rescue a pilot on a mountain full of pine trees with sorrunding Paki posts.

Copy Pasting USA in everything doesnt make sense... we have a professional AF and Army to counter in high altitude.
 

abingdonboy

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
8,084
Likes
33,801
Country flag
So you assume Pakis wont use any SAM or any air power to counter the bird we send to rescue the pilot.

Also,how would you rescue a pilot on a mountain full of pine trees with sorrunding Paki posts.

Copy Pasting USA in everything doesnt make sense... we have a professional AF and Army to counter in high altitude.
I'm not saying it's possible or easy but it's the only option. A fighter pilot lost even 1km inside Pakistan territory won't be reachable by a CSAR team on foot before he is captured by local assets. What if he's 10km behind enemy lines? 15?20?

Going the speed of a fighter jet, even 30 seconds inside enemy territory puts you 10+ km behind their lines.

How long will it take a CSAR team on foot to get to him then recover him back to safety? It's not even thinkable.




By vertical airlift is the only way to go, it's not just mindlessly copying the US but a logical solution to a common problem.
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
I'm not saying it's possible or easy but it's the only option. A fighter pilot lost even 1km inside Pakistan territory won't be reachable by a CSAR team on foot before he is captured by local assets. What if he's 10km behind enemy lines? 15?20?

Going the speed of a fighter jet, even 30 seconds inside enemy territory puts you 10+ km behind their lines.

How long will it take a CSAR team on foot to get to him then recover him back to safety? It's not even thinkable.




By vertical airlift is the only way to go, it's not just mindlessly copying the US but a logical solution to a common problem.
If i was a General i would send teams by foot upto 15kms.Anything beyond that cannot be rescued by foot or by air anyway.

Operation Mandhol is a great example of that.
 

abingdonboy

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
8,084
Likes
33,801
Country flag
If i was a General i would send teams by foot upto 15kms.Anything beyond that cannot be rescued by foot or by air anyway.

Operation Mandhol is a great example of that.
15km? That would take more than 3 hours with battle loads, in thick vegetation and mountainous terrain ONE WAY, 6+ (best case scenario) hours to go in, get the pilot(s) and get back out and all this without Pakis deploying MASSIVE assets to interfere with this plan? I don't think so.


Any such mission would be doomed to fail from the outset, you'd end up transforming 1-2 POWs into 12+ (that's if the Garuds didn't get aggressive and try and fight it out) .


Like I said, it's only possible with helos, if it can't be done with them it can't be done at all.
 

Anikastha

DEEP STATE
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
5,005
Likes
8,882
Country flag
15km? That would take more than 3 hours with battle loads, in thick vegetation and mountainous terrain ONE WAY, 6+ (best case scenario) hours to go in, get the pilot(s) and get back out and all this without Pakis deploying MASSIVE assets to interfere with this plan? I don't think so.


Any such mission would be doomed to fail from the outset, you'd end up transforming 1-2 POWs into 12+ (that's if the Garuds didn't get aggressive and try and fight it out) .


Like I said, it's only possible with helos, if it can't be done with them it can't be done at all.
if u want to use helos then airspace should be dominated us or all sam sites should be neutralised before sending the team in...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top