Indian Special Forces (archived)

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I would go on the limp here and say, yes we have the men to go across and kill them. But it falls back to the political will. The govt. wouldn't give the order for various geopolitical reason, infact such an action might actually lead to a war, etc, etc.

We have the men..agreed.

Do we have the resources?.

Dawood and Saed cannot be taken out by Para or Marcos.As both are sitting too deep inside Pakistan.

Hence,we would need a team of RAW operators either SG or other similar teams with no name.(names keep changing)

Now when the job is done how will the extraction be carried out?

Will they be extracted by Afghanistan or through the seas?

Again the question arises do we have such kind of resources.

Someone was saying the money doesnt matter? I bet and say that the extraction would not be possible at all without money being involved.

Special operations are like octopus.It has several tentacles and all tentacles ie the components need to be the best.

Motivation and training can never replace technology and resources.Each is equally important.

 

[Chinmoy]

Did anyone watch the Chinese Special forces documentary on History Channel?

I must say i am shocked.Their training is very basic conpared to Indian or western SF.

Recruits were firing a gun for the first time in probation.They broke their ankles jumping of a helicopter.

Unnecessary trainings like drills and driving a SUV like a hollywood actor.

On top of that the gear and weapons are basic.No scopes even on the assault rifles which is Chinese and doesnt have the best reputation.

Disappointed also to see no ragda and scolding which tests the temper of the trainee.

I saw it. There is a reason for the basic training which was shown to be imparted.

Unlike India, China doesn't have a 100% voluntary army. Young boys and girls are make to go through essential military tenure before holding any government post. This is same as that of Israel, but while Israel is bound to do so due to its small population, China is bound to do so due to its communist ideology.

Now what has been shown is the primary training imparted to the green horn recruits. For us it is the same what our infantry goes through. Based on the initial training, they are then selected for far advance training. In our case, the SF is a voluntary force where applications are accepted from serving personals.

Even if you have seen the breaking point program on IA commandos, you might have noticed how best of the cadets were chosen to undergo the basic commando training from bunch of a green horns. Then few of them does volunteer for SF. Same is the case with Chinese SF. Only difference is, they do recruit directly for SF training whereas in our case Elite of the Elite could only get into it.

As far as comparing Indian SF, whether its Para's or Marcos, it is a known fact that attrition rate during training is highest in Indian SF compared to any other. Its even higher then Russian Spetnaz which is notorious for its training procedure.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I saw it. There is a reason for the basic training which was shown to be imparted.

Unlike India, China doesn't have a 100% voluntary army. Young boys and girls are make to go through essential military tenure before holding any government post. This is same as that of Israel, but while Israel is bound to do so due to its small population, China is bound to do so due to its communist ideology.

Now what has been shown is the primary training imparted to the green horn recruits. For us it is the same what our infantry goes through. Based on the initial training, they are then selected for far advance training. In our case, the SF is a voluntary force where applications are accepted from serving personals.

Even if you have seen the breaking point program on IA commandos, you might have noticed how best of the cadets were chosen to undergo the basic commando training from bunch of a green horns. Then few of them does volunteer for SF. Same is the case with Chinese SF. Only difference is, they do recruit directly for SF training whereas in our case Elite of the Elite could only get into it.

As far as comparing Indian SF, whether its Para's or Marcos, it is a known fact that attrition rate during training is highest in Indian SF compared to any other. Its even higher then Russian Spetnaz which is notorious for its training procedure.

SF cannot be comprised up of men who are not sure of where they ought to be.

SF is made up of men who laugh when the enemy opens fire..who dont consider surrender as any option..who know where they are going based on the case of where they have been.

Like the Para takes only very bright infantrymen.The guys who have been there done that in Infantry battalions and maybe RR.

The same guy after probation goes to Kashmir where the training further continues and sees action after a long time.

Then goes to NSG or SG and finally as an instructor to motivate others.

These Chinese are a bunch of kids.I didnt find them tough or even well trained or equipped.

Even if this is beginner training it still sucks coz their priorities are very wrong.

If SF is doing Parade and emphasizing on it so much when will you have time for other much more important things involved in breaking up of a trainee.

Gatorades and all for long route march.They should come to Jodhpur to train with the Desert scorpions and see what training in real heat is.

Secondly,i didnt see any kind of psycometric or any pressuring tactics used to test them mentally.In our SF it is done in the beginning.

We have a very good quality over them as far as infantry and SF are concerned.We really have battle hardened troops who will eat these kids for breakfast in a war..and i am not kidding.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Well thats the capability only they should have.Which other SF would be boarding Naval ships?

But thats not the main thing.The main thing is that the Marines would have been ideal for such a situation.

8 Marcos were handling the security parameter of INS Sumitra along with armed naval personnel.

Instead,the ship should have a bigger number of marines with 8 to 10 Marcos.It would be an ideal combination for any contingency.

All SF should have this capability as no one knows what situation may arise during war-time. During peace-time it suffices that only marcos have such capabilities but during hostilities all premier SFs must be able to execute any missions that are needed. We always face shortage of skilled man-power during hostilities, hence it would be advisable that all SFs can operate in each other's domain.

We seriously need an Naval Infantry (Marine) corps in Indian Navy.

 

[Willy2]

many years ago somebody told me that Indian forces "fear" chinkis...as they knows martial art..and if Chinese want then one kick is enough from them...and many others...hahaha..and he said that he heard it from an "indian soldier"

Chinese gov too realize the lack of experience of their army...they send their soldier to South Sudan , which results n death of first chinese soldier since Vietnam war of 77-78 ,it's create a shock in China as thet are't used to KIA....Chinese soldier are only child in the family , so their is heavy pressure on CCP .

AFAIK they send a special force unit in Syria ,may be they try to fill the gap left by Russian withdrawal...let see what happens there.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

All SF should have this capability as no one knows what situation may arise during war-time. During peace-time it suffices that only marcos have such capabilities but during hostilities all premier SFs must be able to execute any missions that are needed. We always face shortage of skilled man-power during hostilities, hence it would be advisable that all SFs can operate in each other's domain.

We seriously need an Naval Infantry (Marine) corps in Indian Navy.

I dont think its practical that lets say Garuds or Desert scorpions learn to board ships.

The navy should train its own for this.

Such kind of things takes lots of resources and efforts.

Navy should focus on getting Marines.That will be much better than having Para or Garuds on ships.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

many years ago somebody told me that Indian forces "fear" chinkis...as they knows martial art..and if Chinese want then one kick is enough from them...and many others...hahaha..and he said that he heard it from an "indian soldier"

Chinese gov too realize the lack of experience of their army...they send their soldier to South Sudan , which results n death of first chinese soldier since Vietnam war of 77-78 ,it's create a shock in China as thet are't used to KIA....Chinese soldier are only child in the family , so their is heavy pressure on CCP .

AFAIK they send a special force unit in Syria ,may be they try to fill the gap left by Russian withdrawal...let see what happens there.

The word volunteer has a strong meaning.

Theres a reason all Indian SF documentary start with using this word.

 

[sthf]

I would love to see this Chini SF documentary.

Chinis being pompous commies like to present everything as gold plated. If they are showing this kind of abysmal performance in their own documentary then the rot is deeper than you think.

Chinese SF is probably the least experienced (none in real terms) SF of any major country. There was a picture of Chini SF circulating a few years ago. An "operator" with knife between his teeth was aiming his rifle. I saved it offline, will try to look it up.

 

[Darth Malgus]

Was reading about the Marcos yesterday and read about a training period the Marcos have called the "week of hell" I believe its called, with Attrition rates nearing 80% once the training is complete. One of the MARCOS commandos who was sent to take the SEAL training supposedly found it easy..

 

[rkhanna]

One of the MARCOS commandos who was sent to take the SEAL training supposedly found it easy..

MARCOS Selection is patterned on BUD/S and SBS selection. An operator who has been badged already cannot be compared to others who are going through the process for the first time.

I saw it. There is a reason for the basic training which was shown to be imparted.

Hvant seen the documentary so dont know which Chinese unit it was. for an Army SOF unit to do selection on cadets who havnt been through basic infantry school is very very strange.

However do keep in mind that MARCOS and GARUDs also have to go through basic infantry boot camp as part of selection as they have never really fired a rifle before.

So, do you think that our SF is not upto the level of US SF when it comes to technique? Forget weapons, we are years back, but I think our SF is equally good in technique.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

The Americans with their 17 yr GWOT have re-written the book on a lot of things. It would be fair to say our tactics are 1. self learned 2. maynot be the best. Our Tactics have recently started evolving as we are getting more exposed to foriegn forces and their SOPs. Infact GSG-9 played a sizable role in relooking at NSG CQB tactics post 26/11 and then later the americans.

That being said. I KNOW for a fact that the American's have also learned plenty from our SF and schools such as HAWS / CIJWs.

Lastly the americans maybe be slightly better trained due to $$ they have a larger budget to give soldiers more bullets to train with. Better equipment and build better senarios and send them to various parts of the world for constant deployment. LATAM/AFRICA/ME/Central Asia / Asia - Invaluable training.

Indian SOF jungle warfare skills/ High Altitdue skills / LRRP skills are probably better

American SOF combined arms skills are better. Sniper Skills are better (simply put they have better sniper schools) we have designated marksman.
Their SOF combat medic school is the best in the world.

Last thing - any training is an evolutionary process the only BAD training is learning that you know everything.

Unfortunately it was out politicians such as Kejriwal himself who demanded proof. So perhaps this was necessary. Do you know any other country where this happens?

If our government and military is swayed by a politician then my point of our military/govt acting like a bananan republic. not a professional fighting force.

My only point is that this Government is using this op and SF units for Propaganda. And it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Real Gs walk in silence

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Was reading about the Marcos yesterday and read about a training period the Marcos have called the "week of hell" I believe its called, with Attrition rates nearing 80% once the training is complete. One of the MARCOS commandos who was sent to take the SEAL training supposedly found it easy..

The hell week is a common thing in every SF training.

Food and sleep deprivation is where it starts and a lot of mental stress is put on the probees plus they are expected to carry out a lot of tasks and exams.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

MARCOS Selection is patterned on BUD/S and SBS selection. An operator who has been badged already cannot be compared to others who are going through the process for the first time.



Hvant seen the documentary so dont know which Chinese unit it was. for an Army SOF unit to do selection on cadets who havnt been through basic infantry school is very very strange.

However do keep in mind that MARCOS and GARUDs also have to go through basic infantry boot camp as part of selection as they have never really fired a rifle before.



The Americans with their 17 yr GWOT have re-written the book on a lot of things. It would be fair to say our tactics are 1. self learned 2. maynot be the best. Our Tactics have recently started evolving as we are getting more exposed to foriegn forces and their SOPs. Infact GSG-9 played a sizable role in relooking at NSG CQB tactics post 26/11 and then later the americans.

That being said. I KNOW for a fact that the American's have also learned plenty from our SF and schools such as HAWS / CIJWs.

Lastly the americans maybe be slightly better trained due to $$ they have a larger budget to give soldiers more bullets to train with. Better equipment and build better senarios and send them to various parts of the world for constant deployment. LATAM/AFRICA/ME/Central Asia / Asia - Invaluable training.

Indian SOF jungle warfare skills/ High Altitdue skills / LRRP skills are probably better

American SOF combined arms skills are better. Sniper Skills are better (simply put they have better sniper schools) we have designated marksman.
Their SOF combat medic school is the best in the world.

Last thing - any training is an evolutionary process the only BAD training is learning that you know everything.



If our government and military is swayed by a politician then my point of our military/govt acting like a bananan republic. not a professional fighting force.

My only point is that this Government is using this op and SF units for Propaganda. And it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Real Gs walk in silence

Its the weekend so have a look at the documentary.

Its the elite of the elite.. Beijing Special Forces brigade


Garuds and Marcos are not infantry soldiers but they undergo a bigger training period than these Chinese SF who have a training period of 3 months.

P.SThe documentary says they have to have 3 years military service.

 

[rkhanna]

Garuds and Marcos are not infantry soldiers but they undergo a bigger training period than these Chinese SF who have a training period of 3 months.

yes!. Marcos and Garud Training before deploying to an active unit is 3 years. And I think another 1/1.5 years of further training before becoming operational.

Thanks for the link. is it the same documentary that got release in India?

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I would love to see this Chini SF documentary.

Chinis being pompous commies like to present everything as gold plated. If they are showing this kind of abysmal performance in their own documentary then the rot is deeper than you think.

Chinese SF is probably the least experienced (none in real terms) SF of any major country. There was a picture of Chini SF circulating a few years ago. An "operator" with knife between his teeth was aiming his rifle. I saved it offline, will try to look it up.

Makes me to think how they end up winning so many competitions internationally.

And the answer is simple.Save the funds to train the 0.5% and send them for competitions.

All show..No go!!

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

yes!. Marcos and Garud Training before deploying to an active unit is 3 years. And I think another 1/1.5 years of further training before becoming operational.

Thanks for the link. is it the same documentary that got release in India?

Yes.Its the same i was talking about.

 

[Darth Malgus]

That being said. I KNOW for a fact that the American's have also learned plenty from our SF and schools such as HAWS / CIJWs.

HAWS instructors were one of the major reasons why we won Kargil. 8 HAWS instructors sent to Kargil were vital for the capture of the peeks and winning of the Kargil war.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I dont think its practical that lets say Garuds or Desert scorpions learn to board ships.

The navy should train its own for this.

Such kind of things takes lots of resources and efforts.

Navy should focus on getting Marines.That will be much better than having Para or Garuds on ships.

Not Garuds but definitely Para and to some extent Desert Scorpions need such training. Such training is extremely needed as India has a huge coastline and we are trying to be an super-power

We need an dedicated mounted warfare unit for ship assault and counter-assault operation.

 

[Darth Malgus]

Not Garuds but definitely Para and to some extent Desert Scorpions need such training. Such training is extremely needed as India has a huge coastline and we are trying to be an super-power

We need an dedicated mounted warfare unit for ship assault and counter-assault operation.

What we really need is at least 1-2 Brigades of Infantry specialised for marine warfare structured around the US marine corps...

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

What we really need is at least 1-2 Brigades of Infantry specialised for marine warfare structured around the US marine corps...

Its already there but poorly funded and trained.

 

[rkhanna]

What we really need is at least 1-2 Brigades of Infantry specialised for marine warfare structured around the US marine corps...

We discussed this a few pages back. I listed out reasons why for the short term wont happen in a substantial way. We simply dont have the money.