Indian Special Forces (archived)

[HarshBardhan]

These P90s should be replaced by MSMC.

The elite forces should set an example for others in the Army.

Induction of indigenous weapons is simply too invaluable for any country. For example , Korean Special Warfare Command inducted K7 9mm SMGs when they had a lot of MP-5s in service with them as it would be less expensive to import or manufacture .

But not doubting Indian defence manufacturing , I think P-90 is much better than JVPC in features , firepower and all. JVPC might be less costly than P90 but still P90 is a world beater and has proved itself. JVPC , sadly has not and its worth will not be decided by few demo videos.

 

[rkhanna]

SOF units should induct the best kit they have access too. Domestic Vs Foriegn doesnt argument doesnt work here.

It is the OFB's job to provide them with the best in the world.

Using the Korean Example above. Their Small Arms was born out of foreign licensing and then ToT and now internal R&D improvements.

PS. Look at the Wiki Entry of the SK 707th Unit (their Equivalent to Delta) - They use everything under the sun including SCARs and HK UMP9s

SKs being an exception across the world Americans, Europeans, Aussies, Brits, Canadians etc etc all will trial the best kit and select the best.

 

[Indian Sniper.001]

​

NSG K9 (Canine) with Back mounted camera and head mounted Cameras, goggles fitted with cameras and LED lights also procured for its dog squad.

===================

1. Ideal for close support operations these K9 performs reconnaissance for operators from safe distance. Generally used for their ability to detect minute levels of explosives with their sensitive noses, or during search and rescue operations.

2. Mounted directly to the back of a dog, the K-9 Back Mounted Camera system is designed to transmit real-time video back to the handler. An internal DVR records audio and video directly to an SD card for post operation review and archiving.

3. The handler see what the dog sees from a distance and utilize the video for tactical planning.

#Shatrujeet009

 

[HarshBardhan]

It maybe out of context. Which vehicle is this used by ITBP ( Please name the correct model ) ? Have Special Forces units also got such vehicles ? Thanks in advance

 

[cobra commando]

It maybe out of context. Which vehicle is this used by ITBP ( Please name the correct model ) ? Have Special Forces units also got such vehicles ? Thanks in advance

______________________________

 

[aditya g]

Happy to be corrected, but I believe P90 is a close protection weapon more suited to SPG rather than SFF. Latter is largely an airborne/scout type unit who is better off with a more general purpose SMG.

@Johny_Baba

Induction of indigenous weapons is simply too invaluable for any country. For example , Korean Special Warfare Command inducted K7 9mm SMGs when they had a lot of MP-5s in service with them as it would be less expensive to import or manufacture .

But not doubting Indian defence manufacturing , I think P-90 is much better than JVPC in features , firepower and all. JVPC might be less costly than P90 but still P90 is a world beater and has proved itself. JVPC , sadly has not and its worth will not be decided by few demo videos.

SOF units should induct the best kit they have access too. Domestic Vs Foriegn doesnt argument doesnt work here.

It is the OFB's job to provide them with the best in the world.

Using the Korean Example above. Their Small Arms was born out of foreign licensing and then ToT and now internal R&D improvements.

PS. Look at the Wiki Entry of the SK 707th Unit (their Equivalent to Delta) - They use everything under the sun including SCARs and HK UMP9s

SKs being an exception across the world Americans, Europeans, Aussies, Brits, Canadians etc etc all will trial the best kit and select the best.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Happy to be corrected, but I believe P90 is a close protection weapon more suited to SPG rather than SFF. Latter is largely an airborne/scout type unit who is better off with a more general purpose SMG.

@Johny_Baba

Hmm...5.7 x 28mm FN vs 5.56 x 30mm MINSAS,which one is better ?

From now on,Let's say MINSAS = 5.56 x 30mm,similarly FN = 5.7 x 28mm

MINSAS is basically Indian made variant of Colt's 5.56 x 30mm MARS cartridge,which was actually a shortened 5.56 x 45mm M193 cartridge in 30mm case,having bullet mass of some 55-grain (3.56 grams).We manufacture M193 in OFB so my speculation is that our MINSAS is developed in same way as well i.e. via shortening M193 case to 30mm length and making its case capacity of some 19.2 grains (or ~1.25 grams) of Nitrocellulose + Nitroglycerin propellants mixture (commonly called 'double based propellants).
OFB source for M193 - http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/sc/21.htm

This MARS cartridge was meant to be used in a downscaled AR-15 variant named Colt MARS (Mini Assault Rifle System) designed as potential replacement for 9 x 19mm and .45 ACP SMGs in US Armed Forces (Mainly,MP5s and those WW-2 era M3/M3A1 'Grease guns',although the later one was limited to Special Forces and tank/APC crew members only) as it provides much better ballistic performances to limited ranges compared to these pistol cartridges.Moreover to that same cartridge was designed to achieve much better performance than FN cartridge as well.

They tested this cartridge against many others (including FN) with a and results clearly showed that MARS was better than FN.
For more details,read my post at http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/successful-user-trial-of-msmc.55979/page-10#post-1338175

Even then,these things depend on many other things as well e.g. MARS gun had 1:300mm rifling (one turn per 30cm of barrel length ) while MSMC/JVPC has 1:250mm rifling (one turn per 25cm of barrel length),MARS had barrel length of some 10 inches while JVPC has slightly longer barrel (of some 11.8 inches or 300mm) and so,but i guess performance between MARS and MINSAS is still very much similar,and since MARS was developed as better cartridge than FN,MINSAS is better than FN as well.

For more info on Colt's MARS cartridge and MARS gun,read this PDF from https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FnK1HIZk-w7LHDFqjRN_MijvtXz8V1_Y

Now,coming to the Weapons i.e. MSMC/JVPC vs P90,i would say MSMC/JVPC still needs some revision as in a video posted by Sandeep Unnithan (link: ) he reported that during 2014 trials,only 2 out of 5 guns submitted to the army were able to clear those trials.Moreover to that in other video posted by him,(Link: ) i was able to point out two stoppages in it,one clearly being a stovepipe jam.My speculation is that they need to add 'Rate Reducer' or 'Hammer Retarder' for smooth operation of this gun since rate of fire is somewhat higher that is causing stovepipe jams in it. (Refer my post for more info on those jams at http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/insas-rifle-lmg-carbine.43826/page-152#post-1362417 )

As for FN P90,i can't say much since i don't have much information about it apart from that it being a very compact Ambidextrous gun firing smaller yet powerful cartridges that are capable of penetrating soft kevlar armors and ballistic helmets.

 

[rkhanna]

^^ Dont forget that buying a gun that uses "Indian Only" ammo means that the SOF units will be at the mercy of OFB manufacturing.

Remember how many times we have ordered emergency 5.56 AMMO from the Israelies because we had to scrap entire OFB batches

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Check this out..........................

 

[Johny_Baba]

Check this out..........................

Optical Fiber Camera ?
Those who've played Condition Zero Deleted Scenes will get it.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

When Army got it’s first AK



https://elitepredators.wordpress.com/2017/03/04/when-army-got-its-first-ak/#comments

 

[cobra commando]

Indian Special Forces in Israel to train with the IDF'S most Elite units

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I was reading about Sri Lankan deployment of Para SF and i have failed to see any failures or shortcomings of Para SF in the operations as suggested by 'some'.

The Jaffna raid which everyone proudly mentions to criticse Para SF was the operation in which they were in action for 30 hours surrounded by LTTE who were 500 in number in a small complex of houses with 6 casualty.

I think it is the finest fighting any SF could do and out of the 6 casualties 2 were coz of a friendly arty round dropping on a house with Para SF.

Most people confuse the SIKHLI casualty as Para SF casualty.

The only thing which can be said against them in the operation was that they killed a lot of innocents in the cross fire.

But the psyche of a SF operator is that of a survivor not a saviour!!

I am open to discussion on the topic from anyone who has knowledge about the operation.

Debating leads to learning!

 

[rkhanna]

I Dont think anybody ever said SF role in Sri Lanka was a failure. The entire experience was one of the worst tasting kidchidis every made. The entire Op Pawan definitely was a debacle.

We trained them, clothed them, equiped them and then fought them. While fighting them. We provided their soldiers with primary and emergency care and rations and supplies.

However, coming to SF LTTE Cadre knew when a SF unit was rotated in theater and they would lay low or melt into the Jungles. It was the action at the University that made the LTTE cadre be wary and respectful of SF. (though it must be said they were never scared of SF)
SF was great at dominating the Urban Environment and laying Ambushes in the Bush to specific intel Assaulting and pursing Rebels into the bush (and hitting their camps) was VERY VERY Costly for SF as well as the Regular army.

The Regular Army never ventured very deep in the bush without SF present.

While most SF teams were spread out across the Country they all came together only a few times for Big Ops.

In the bush the ONLY weapon the SF really really liked was the Carl Gustav everything else just hit foliage. PS. Some SF units did have NVGs towards the end. in the jungles they were pretty useless.

The LTTE was by far the most organized and best trained and Equipped Insurgency the world has ever seen. Most SF guys had deep respect for them. Infact one retired gent has even gone as far to say "a few of them were good enough to wear the maroon beret".

We all know that RAW trained up the LTTE. Rumours (never proven) have said that their senior and training cadre were Trained by SG and Para Cdo instructors before the IPKF was deployed.

Ironically the more interesting titbits come in the MARCOS/IN vs Naval LTTE Battles.

ALOT ALOT of badassary went down in Lanka. with worthy nods being earned by all sides. However why we dont read in detail about them today is because the entire episode was a bad memory to high command and South block.

Not a single politician ever recieved a dead soldier or showed up when the entire contingent returned home.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I will talk from a military point of view and not question the deployment for obvious reason that it is history now.

The IA took a good beating to be honest.This was because the IA Generals thought that the "lungi" are no match for them and the poor chaps from SIKHLI were not even given 3 days before deployment.

They were pinned down because of severe misinformation and miscalculations.

A Sikh soldier captured in Jaffna raid and relased at the end of the deployment had said the Para SF were the only force respected in LTTE.

Why did we fail?Gen Singh thought it was a picnic from the beginning.He went on to say that we didnt need to take lungis seriously and in 6 days LTTE is gone etc.

A Madras reggt Havildar had said it was impossible to distinguish between a LTTe and a civilian.

They kept coming.It was Black hawk down on steroids.The thing never changed.

However,after the initial casualty the Para changed tactics and by the end had started to use the new tactics well.Hit and run.

Marcos did a commendable job even after being relatively new.If i am not wrong some of the Marcos were trained in Seal schools if not all.

The reason i bring this out is so that we dont have any misconceptions about our SF.
Yes they got killed as they are humans.

Yes the Indian Army took a hit with 1200 soldiers killed in 3 years.

No our SF did not let us down..Para and Marco combined.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Here are some of the pics...

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

The legendary Sheonan singh with his team who survived Jaffna.(went on to become a Major General)

on the right its him

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

54 Ind Brigade worked with the Marcos on the waters

I hope no one ever says that even Para SF had failures..If yes tag me in the post and i will gladly remove the doubts.

 

[F-14B]

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR sir seems like Indian forces in general and the SF in particular used Vietnam style tactics in Ceylon would it be true to make that assumption ???

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR sir seems like Indian forces in general and the SF in particular used Vietnam style tactics in Ceylon would it be true to make that assumption ???

Its true on so many levels.

From going there like a giant who didnt respect the enemy to sending a lot of coffins back home to evolving new tactics its so similar.

Both wars taught us that big size teams are not very successful in the jungles.The term was evolved..

FIGHT A GUERRILLA LIKE A GUERRILLA

The lessons we learnt were used by us in Kashmir.This lead to the creation of SF school Nahan in 1993 and also evolving new tactics in CIJWS.

Our soldiers got hand on the Aks and many times our SF guys used the LTTE G3 coz of similar ammo.