Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Vinod DX9]

Lest We Forget
The 18th Martyr's Day was commemorated at INS Abhimanyu on 12 August 2017 to pay homage to Marine Commandos (MARCOS) who made the supreme sacrifice and attained martyrdom in combat during counter terrorist operations in Jammu and Kashmir. The solemn ceremony was attended by families of the martyrs and MARCOS veterans. A similar ceremony was also observed at the war memorial at Bandipore, Jammu and Kashmir.

 

[rkhanna]

This Special Ops Division is phase-1. Did anyone think it would be easy to migrate an entire military to a new way of working, as always a phased approach is required. This SOD is modeled on the lines of CIA's SAD and will work chiefly with RAW, for now SF from the 3 services teams would be rotated into it. Eventually we'll see more breakdown in structure for now next phases are still in review.

Why is a military SF unit working for RAW?! The need of the Hour is a SOCOM not a SAD. Two complete mutually exclusive needs.

You say. Phase I. - Phase one of What? Is there a plan for next phase? What does it lead to?

RAW serves a different purpose from IB and MI. Military Special Operation Forces need to serve MI and not RAW and RAW needs to develop its own tool shed from the Military SEPARATELY.

I agree that you Cant do it over night.- I can also buy the argument that just because country xyz does it, does not mean its the magic answer for India- But i have little faith In the Politics that play out in Military High Command and MoD ever tangibly benefiting India.



PS. Remember the Special Forces Regiment that was set up in the 90s. That was also supposed to be Phase I. that experiment failed and we are back to the drawing board.

 

[Screambowl]

RAW and RAW needs to develop its own tool shed from the Military SEPARATELY

Oh well then in that case, another question arises, why people from IPS cadre are in the wing? And why it is mostly headed by IPS..

 

[sthf]

@abingdonboy Since the reforms suggested by Kargil review committee and Naresh Chandra committee are yet to be implemented in their original spirit, I think you could be right about the 3 decade long "trials".

@Immanuel Modi didn't promise gradual reforms over the period of decades, he promised swift and brutal reforms. Demonetization proves that he is capable to taking decisions that could have had doomed him and his party but he did it anyways. The general lack of awareness about military affairs suggests that he is not going to trigger a backlash from the voters but the babus of MOD and military. So what's bugging him?

 

[uoftotaku]

This SOD is modeled on the lines of CIA's SAD and will work chiefly with RAW, for now SF from the 3 services teams would be rotated into it.

R&AW already has its own force, the SFF.

 

[rkhanna]

Oh well then in that case, another question arises, why people from IPS cadre are in the wing? And why it is mostly headed by IPS..

Lol Sirji - Thats a can of worms for another day and a different thread.

 

[Immanuel]

Why is a military SF unit working for RAW?! The need of the Hour is a SOCOM not a SAD. Two complete mutually exclusive needs.

You say. Phase I. - Phase one of What? Is there a plan for next phase? What does it lead to?

RAW serves a different purpose from IB and MI. Military Special Operation Forces need to serve MI and not RAW and RAW needs to develop its own tool shed from the Military SEPARATELY.

I agree that you Cant do it over night.- I can also buy the argument that just because country xyz does it, does not mean its the magic answer for India- But i have little faith In the Politics that play out in Military High Command and MoD ever tangibly benefiting India.



PS. Remember the Special Forces Regiment that was set up in the 90s. That was also supposed to be Phase I. that experiment failed and we are back to the drawing board.

I said chiefly with RAW because all SF units will under go a large restructuring, new units will be formed. The likes of Para Sf, Garuds and Marcos will soon be working entirely as units meant to work behind enemy lines. By end of phase-3 circa 2030 Navy will have built up a large Naval Infantry Regiment with several battalions to work from the upcoming LPDs, AF will have form it's own Light infantry unit, These upcoming regiments will have their own SO capable commando units, they will be working in sync with MI and IB. While Garuds, Marcos, Para SF, SG go after respective strategic assets of the enemy. Due to massive scale of strategic bases at both Pak and China, the need of the hour is to have badass Tier-1 units going after key targets under the SOD. Being mostly working with RAW and using intel coming from MI, IB and NSA, their work will become a lot more secretive.

Too much cushy and cozy jointness is not always needed and that has become crystal clear. Army, Navy and AF should always have the freedom to prosecute targets of opportunity that accomplish key goals in their respective domain. During recent war games/exercises it was found that relying on joint structures too much results in quite a heavy burden on command and control especially during high intense operations against multi front attacks from both Pak and China. It also found that the moves became quite predictable on the grand scale. The Navy and AF argued that this didn't allow for creative fighting. The idea now is to go back to real mandates, focus on what you do best and align under unified commands only to advance strategic defensive and offensive objectives.

More on that later when the time is right.

 

[Immanuel]

R&AW already has its own force, the SFF.

SFF will undergo a big change, so will RAW.

 

[Immanuel]

@abingdonboy Since the reforms suggested by Kargil review committee and Naresh Chandra committee are yet to be implemented in their original spirit, I think you could be right about the 3 decade long "trials".

@Immanuel Modi didn't promise gradual reforms over the period of decades, he promised swift and brutal reforms. Demonetization proves that he is capable to taking decisions that could have had doomed him and his party but he did it anyways. The general lack of awareness about military affairs suggests that he is not going to trigger a backlash from the voters but the babus of MOD and military. So what's bugging him?

This is not about Modi. The 3 services are engaged in a hot topic discussion on this. The 2nd largest military in the world cannot be reformed in 2 Govt. tenures let alone 1. Patience.

 

[abingdonboy]

@abingdonboy Since the reforms suggested by Kargil review committee and Naresh Chandra committee are yet to be implemented in their original spirit, I think you could be right about the 3 decade long "trials".

This is what I am most disappointed about Parrikar's depature. He wasn't the most effective at getting procurements pushed through and his big mouth was problamatic BUT he appreciated the lack of reforms in the MoD and had said explictly that his first priority was to implement the countless suggestions of committees that had been formed in the past.

With Parrikar now out of the picture the MoD is back to its typical ways- stagnation and incompetence focused entirely on maintaining the status quo.

I wish Parrikar had been around at least another 2 years to get some of this committee reccomendations implemented, it seems Modi has entirely forgotten about the MoD/defence and Jaitley is DM in name only- he doesn't try to hide the fact that 99% of his focus is on Finance.

I said chiefly with RAW because all SF units will under go a large restructuring, new units will be formed. The likes of Para Sf, Garuds and Marcos will soon be working entirely as units meant to work behind enemy lines. By end of phase-3 circa 2030 Navy will have built up a large Naval Infantry Regiment with several battalions to work from the upcoming LPDs, AF will have form it's own Light infantry unit, These upcoming regiments will have their own SO capable commando units, they will be working in sync with MI and IB. While Garuds, Marcos, Para SF, SG go after respective strategic assets of the enemy. Due to massive scale of strategic bases at both Pak and China, the need of the hour is to have badass Tier-1 units going after key targets under the SOD. Being mostly working with RAW and using intel coming from MI, IB and NSA, their work will become a lot more secretive.

Too much cushy and cozy jointness is not always needed and that has become crystal clear. Army, Navy and AF should always have the freedom to prosecute targets of opportunity that accomplish key goals in their respective domain. During recent war games/exercises it was found that relying on joint structures too much results in quite a heavy burden on command and control especially during high intense operations against multi front attacks from both Pak and China. It also found that the moves became quite predictable on the grand scale. The Navy and AF argued that this didn't allow for creative fighting. The idea now is to go back to real mandates, focus on what you do best and align under unified commands only to advance strategic defensive and offensive objectives.

More on that later when the time is right.

This makes more sense, your earlier comparison of the SOD as R&AW's SAD I think is a bit off, R&AW already has a unit modelled entirely on SAD- Special Group.


SOD/SOCOM working with R&AW seems logical- the CIA and JSOC work VERY closely with each other (in fact JSOC works almost entirely from inputs given directly by CIA).

 

[Screambowl]

SOD/SOCOM working with R&AW seems logical- the CIA and JSOC work VERY closely with each other (in fact JSOC works almost entirely from inputs given directly by CIA).

Exactly!
Because if there is an operation run by RAW neutralized by army thinking it's enemy operation then God help national security.

 

[Vinod DX9]

MAJOR JOHN DANIEL

His badges and medals speaks volumes for him
From upper left - (Para Wings Mess Badge , Name Plate , Ladakh Scouts , Balidaan , National Security Guard Special Action Group Badge)
From upper right - (Combat Free Fall Specialist , Medals , GOC Commendation Card , 150+ jumps star badge)

PS- He had also done his deep and combat diving course from the Diving School Kochi

 

[sthf]

This is not about Modi. The 3 services are engaged in a hot topic discussion on this. The 2nd largest military in the world cannot be reformed in 2 Govt. tenures let alone 1. Patience.

Bro, in case you didn't notice, the largest military in the world went through massive reforms in the past 5 years. CCP has a case for keeping the forces separate to avoid PLA getting too strong. India faces no such problem. It's the vested interests that is preventing reforms not technical difficulties.

So yes, it is about Modi and especially since we don't even have a full time DM.

 

[aditya g]

ID last operation.

OPERATIONS - DATES

01. Op Pawan: Jun 98 - Mar 90
02. Op Cactus: Oct 88 - Jul 89
03. Op Zodiac: Oct 88 - Nov 89
04. Op Tulip: Apr 89 - May 89
05. Op Jupiter: Jun 89 - Jul 89
06. Op Tasha: Jul 90 - present day
07. Op Muffet: Dec 92 - Oct 93
08. Op Zabardast: Jan 93 - present day
09. Op ____nak: Mar 94 - present day​

 

[Screambowl]

I guess its OP Bhayanak , just a guess....

ID last operation.

OPERATIONS - DATES

01. Op Pawan: Jun 98 - Mar 90
02. Op Cactus: Oct 88 - Jul 89
03. Op Zodiac: Oct 88 - Nov 89
04. Op Tulip: Apr 89 - May 89
05. Op Jupiter: Jun 89 - Jul 89
06. Op Tasha: Jul 90 - present day
07. Op Muffet: Dec 92 - Oct 93
08. Op Zabardast: Jan 93 - present day
09. Op ____nak: Mar 94 - present day​

 

[aditya g]

I guess its OP Bhayanak , just a guess....

Khatarnak? Guess.

What is operation tulip?

 

[Brahmaputra Mail 2]

One question. In what capacities do officers serve other than being a CO of a Battalion, in case he is from Para SF ? In this officers are of the rank of Colonel or above. In some cases officers of the rank of Colonel do serve as CO of other RR battalions. What about Brigadier and above ? Do they get chance to head a Brigade, Corps, or Army command ?

 

[TheHurtLocker]

I guess its OP Bhayanak , just a guess....

Khatarnak? Guess.

What is operation tulip?

Did some digging around and the closest I came to filling the blank is through a quora answer:

Some of the known operations undertaken by MARCOS: Operation Pawan (1987), Operation Cactus (1988), Operation Tasha (1991), Operation Zabardust (1992), UNOSOM II (1993), Operation Rakshak (1995), Operation Leech (1994), Operation Swan (1994), Kargil War (1991), Operation Black Tornado (2008), Anti-Piracy (2008,11,13), Exercise Balance Iroquois 03-1/Vajra Prahar ()2003, Malabar 05 (2005).

https://www.quora.com/Which-special-forces-group-in-the-Indian-military-is-the-best

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

One question. In what capacities do officers serve other than being a CO of a Battalion, in case he is from Para SF ? In this officers are of the rank of Colonel or above. In some cases officers of the rank of Colonel do serve as CO of other RR battalions. What about Brigadier and above ? Do they get chance to head a Brigade, Corps, or Army command ?

SF or a Helicopter pilot..they come under the normal rank structure,command and duty and also get to command a brigade or a div or a corp.

 

[rkhanna]

Too much cushy and cozy jointness is not always needed and that has become crystal clear. Army, Navy and AF should always have the freedom to prosecute targets of opportunity that accomplish key goals in their respective domain.

Everything you say is very heartening if it sees the light of day. Specially what you say on Naval Infantry. There used to be talk in the 90s of converting the attached IA Battalion to permanent naval Infantry but never materialized.

However - would like to Debate the above. (lets just take the Americans as example as they are the most comprehensive and their military is the only western large military complex enough that can do for a India Comparison)

Jointness does not mean Individual Arms cannot persecute their own missions.

For example In America AFSOC, ASOC, NAVSOC, MARSOC all individually report to SOCOM but they are Commands in their own right. In Iraq each command deployed and ran its own missions with SOCOM commanding the overall chess board. When "Jointness" was needed under the ageis of JSOC they set up temporary Task Forces to persecute Strategic Objectives. Those Task Forces were infact aided more by Grey Fox (Task Force Orange - A Pentagon Intel Unit - Think of an Indian TSD) and less by the CIA. With Grey Fox being forced to curb activities over past few years the CIA has again taken priority.

If you are in the mood and curious - 2 books i would recommend that debate the Pros and Cons of SOF/Hybrid Warfare are

- Masters of Chaos
- The Way of the Knife.