Indian nuclear submarines

Chinmoy

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Wonder whats stopping them.................
Missiles like Agni are more political weapon rather then practical, esp the nuclear version. Now ever wonder why GoI has repeatedly capped the range of A5 at 5000 to 5500 km whereas Chinese media and government is repeatedly crying of its actual range to be anywhere near 8000km.

With the current A5, India could target whole of China from anywhere in India. So at this point developing a version with longer range and declaring it would be a pure political blunder. What would be the excuse of GoI if it declares that we have a missile that could hit target in US. I mean on one hand you are trying hard to make friends world over and on other hand you are declaring of having weapons to hit them. In this scenario the best option for India is to declare a SLBM with that much of range. India would have the perfect alibi and excuse to hit China with it from anywhere in world.

So developing such a weapon and declaring its presence is more of a political decision. It keeps on changing with geo-strategy.
 

sayareakd

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Missiles like Agni are more political weapon rather then practical, esp the nuclear version. Now ever wonder why GoI has repeatedly capped the range of A5 at 5000 to 5500 km whereas Chinese media and government is repeatedly crying of its actual range to be anywhere near 8000km.

With the current A5, India could target whole of China from anywhere in India. So at this point developing a version with longer range and declaring it would be a pure political blunder. What would be the excuse of GoI if it declares that we have a missile that could hit target in US. I mean on one hand you are trying hard to make friends world over and on other hand you are declaring of having weapons to hit them. In this scenario the best option for India is to declare a SLBM with that much of range. India would have the perfect alibi and excuse to hit China with it from anywhere in world.

So developing such a weapon and declaring its presence is more of a political decision. It keeps on changing with geo-strategy.
Lot of things are stopping them. Even earlier govt despite being MIRV ready A3 was not tested. Its mention in Drdo book, current Govt has continued that.

We need to test next generation of BMD, MKV, ASAT, MIRV and air delivery long range systems.

Coming back to subs. Hope we will soon go for 14kt to 20 kt class of SSBN as next logical step. Some chatter out their. Lets wait & watch.
 

lcafanboy

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Commissioning Aridhaman & Carriers
Published September 18, 2017 SOURCE: Bharatkarnad


Around a fortnight from today, the fueled up INS Aridhaman, the second nuclear-powered ballistic missile-firing submarine will be officially commissioned into the Indian Navy. It will be the pleasant duty of the new Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman to actually break a coconut — not a champagne bottle — on the hull of the SSBN. The Aridhaman too is anArihant-class boat but with more onboard firepower — 8 vertical launch tubes for the 1,500 km range K-15 and 2,500km range K-4 Mk-1 (seaborne Agni-III) missiles — with the 5,000km range K-5 Mk-II (seaborne Agni-V) missile under developmentbut coming up fast. The weapon mix will of course be determined by the aim of the nuclear counter-strike mission. In comparison, Arihant carries, besides the K-15, also the K-4 — but has available only 4 missile silos aft of the conning tower. In fact, the Indian Arihant-class SSBN seems far larger and more powerful than advertised by the government or the navy. It looks like the Arihant displaces some 8,000 tonnes as against its publicized tonnage of 6,000 tonnes. The follow-on sub — Aridhaman and the two other SSBNs in this class are larger still. Naturally, this sort of tonnage cannot be pushed by a relatively puny 90MW miniaturized light water reactor. Matching the displacement with the power plant would put the latter at anywhere between 120MW-150MW for the Arihant, and nearer to 200MW for the Aridhaman. The SSBN would not have been possible — it must be gratefully admitted, without seminal help and assistance from Russia, which has been surprisingly forthcoming in parting with strategic technologies. Those in the Indian military enamoured of Western tech and imports, should sit down and enumerate what technologies the three armed services have actually received from the US and France before they begin yapping incessantly about the so-called mil high-tech Western countries supply and are prepared to part with in the future. If anybody in the GOI/MOD/armed services are even a little honest they will realize that the sole aim of Western govts and arms industries is to sell gullible 2nd rate states 2nd rate equipment dressed up with lots of bells and whistles to impress the yokels. And then the most critical tech will NOT be offered other than as “black box” technologies (even for the antiquated F-16!) . If it is anywhere near cutting edge hardware, such as the electro-magnetic aircraft launch system for carriers, it is made accessible to India only because their own services are finding it hard to absorb, cost-wise, and the govts and companies need a foreign buyer to amortize their R&D investments and to reduce the unit cost for their own militaries. The EMALS on the USS Gerald Ford nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, for instance, costs the American Navy $3 billion. General Dynamics wants upwards of $5-$6 billion for each EMALS unit sold to, yea, the sucker primero — India. This while Washington has made it plain that the deal for it will not come with the nuclear reactor (required to generate the enormous power to needed to drive the EMALS) the Indian naval brass desperately desired. The alternative — EMALS with several GE LM 2500 gas turbine power packs, makes little sense. As it is, aircraft carriers are dead in the water with supersonic cruise missiles such as the Brahmos. With hypersonic weapons coming soon large ships will become all the more vulnerable and, by and by, extinct. Not that any of this will deter the naval aviation types — most of them not surprisingly graduates of the US Naval War College. Except the US Navy with a ship strength of 370 bottoms and rising deploys as escort flotilla a minimum of 5-7 frigates/missile destroyers and 1-2 submarines pulling picket duty for each of its 11 carriers. Translate that into IN terms, and most of the capital ships will be not out there asserting presence, showing flag, doing sea control but protecting the carriers. Should MOD/GOI approve 3 aircraft carriers, it will mean 15-21 surface combatants and 3 or more subs pulling police duty for the carriers out of a strength of some 50 odd fighting ships and 20 submersibles (by 2025). It will be a bit like the hordes of police and NSG protecting our VVIP netas even as there are no police to spare for their main role — of keeping criminals off our streets and our throats. Moreover, carriers are impressive in peace time; in war they are, what, sitting ducks?

http://idrw.org/commissioning-aridhaman-carriers/#more-148243 .
 

Armand2REP

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It looks like the Arihant displaces some 8,000 tonnes as against its publicized tonnage of 6,000 tonnes.
It is called the difference between surface displacement and submerged displacement.

Naturally, this sort of tonnage cannot be pushed by a relatively puny 90MW miniaturized light water reactor. Matching the displacement with the power plant would put the latter at anywhere between 120MW-150MW for the Arihant, and nearer to 200MW for the Aridhaman.
Naturally, it doesn't mean that those reactors are available. If they are really making it bigger they could use two reactors. 90MW is enough for a 6k tonne boomer.

The SSBN would not have been possible — it must be gratefully admitted, without seminal help and assistance from Russia, which has been surprisingly forthcoming in parting with strategic technologies. Those in the Indian military enamoured of Western tech and imports, should sit down and enumerate what technologies the three armed services have actually received from the US and France before they begin yapping incessantly about the so-called mil high-tech Western countries supply and are prepared to part with in the future. If anybody in the GOI/MOD/armed services are even a little honest they will realize that the sole aim of Western govts and arms industries is to sell gullible 2nd rate states 2nd rate equipment dressed up with lots of bells and whistles to impress the yokels.
biased much? France is building a reactor for Brasil, just because India didn't come to us doesn't mean we don't provide it.

If it is anywhere near cutting edge hardware, such as the electro-magnetic aircraft launch system for carriers, it is made accessible to India only because their own services are finding it hard to absorb, cost-wise, and the govts and companies need a foreign buyer to amortize their R&D investments and to reduce the unit cost for their own militaries. The EMALS on the USS Gerald Ford nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, for instance, costs the American Navy $3 billion. General Dynamics wants upwards of $5-$6 billion for each EMALS unit sold to, yea, the sucker primero — India.
$5-6 billion for a catapult? The British needed £1.2 billion to outfit BOTH of their carriers. Did he pull that figure out of his arse?
 

Kalki_2018

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France is not building jack-shit for brazil . The Brazilians are working with argentina on the reactor. France will only help with the nuclear sub design and not propulsion.
 

Armand2REP

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France is not building jack-shit for brazil . The Brazilians are working with argentina on the reactor. France will only help with the nuclear sub design and not propulsion.
The Brazilian Navy’s stand at LAAD 2013 includes an actual size combustion element for their proposed 2131-R Pressurized Water Reactor nuclear design, and 2 models of their proposed SN-Br nuclear submarine. Shephard was told that the reactor design had help from France, but that the reactor itself would be built in Brazil at a later date.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/brazil-france-in-deal-for-ssks-ssn-05217/
 

lcafanboy

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India’s only nuclear submarine damaged in accident
MANU PUBBY3 October, 2017





INS Chakra | Source: Indian Navy

Taken on a 10-year lease from Russia, INS Chakra is currently berthed at Vizag; will sail after repairs

New Delhi: India’s nuclear-powered submarine, INS Chakra, has suffered “some damage” in an accident and could require substantial repair work to get it back in shape.

The attack submarine, obtained on a 10-year lease from Russia, has not sailed for a month and is berthed at its home port of Visakhapatnam for repairs.

Sources told ThePrint that the submarine — currently India’s only operational nuclear-powered vessel — suffered damage to its sonar dome in the accident. The sonar dome is located at the forward portion of the submarine, beneath the torpedo tubes.

While details of the incident are yet to emerge, sources said that the damage could be the result of either a collision at sea or accidental scraping while entering the harbour. The Indian Navy refused to comment on the incident.

Repair work on the submarine is likely to be complicated given that the sonar dome is made of titanium, a difficult metal that requires both specialised machinery and manpower to work on. However, the indigenous Arihant nuclear armed submarines are also being made in Visakhapatnam and that could help.

The Visakhapatnam harbour has recorded incidents in the past when warships have touched the bottom while navigating the tight water channel. In January 2014, the INS Airavat — a Shardul class amphibious warship — suffered damage to its port propeller while entering the harbour.

Inducted in April 2012, INS Chakra is a modernised Russian Akula-II class submarine, known as one of the stealthiest in the world after American vessels of similar class. While the submarine is nuclear powered, it does not carry nuclear-tipped missiles on board and is designed to be a silent killer — it lurks underwater to sink enemy ships and take out land-based targets.

The stealthy nature of nuclear-powered boats, along with the increasing traffic at sea, has meant that accidents have become common. At least two such accidents had taken place last year itself. In July 2016, a British nuclear attack submarine, HMS Ambush, collided with a merchant vessel off the coast of Gibraltar suffering external damage. A month later, the USS Louisiana nuclear missile submarine collided with a naval support vessel at sea, suffering damage to its starboard hull.

The story behind the Chakra
Taken on a 10-year lease in 2012, the Chakra has a displacement of 12,000 tonnes. It is powered by a 190 MW reactor and can reach speeds of over 30 knots. The vessel is manned by 80 crew members and is equipped with tactical missiles, a new fire control systems, sonars and contemporary optronic periscopes and surveillance systems.

Originally named the Nerpa, the submarine was launched in 1991 but was mothballed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. India later took it on a 10-year lease for close to $1 billion.

India is now moving ahead with its plans to lease another nuclear attack submarine from its old ally Russia for an estimated $2.5 billion that will include the refit of the boat at a Cold War era shipyard, followed by a 10-year deployment with the Navy. The new ship is likely to be inducted after the completion of the lease period of Chakra.

https://theprint.in/2017/10/03/acci...owered-submarine-cracks-appear-in-sonar-dome/
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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Really??? Sonar dome is made of titanium???
Then it will not work at all..........
I am not sure about AKula subs nor about the story published by DDM news site , but technically In the former Soviet Union and Russia, the last production of ship nano acoustic flow cover is made of glass steel (FRP) manufacturing, then mostly use titanium alloy that: titanium alloy dome has excellent comprehensive performance, their production of "Kursk" on the sonar system is used titanium alloy manufacturing.

China's purchase of K877 boats, K636 boats, 956 boats, "Liaoning" aircraft carrier, such as sonar dome is made of titanium alloy. China earlier built naval sonar dome surface according to underwater applications, the requirements are different, some made of stainless steel, some glass steel manufacturing, the "95" period of titanium dome made a comprehensive in-depth study, and achieved fruitful results, now gradually changed with titanium alloy.

more info

http://www.yunchtitanium.com/news/talking-about-the-titanium-parts-on-the-ship-4827024.html

Hope they move this discussion to Akula sub related thread
 

singhboy98

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Bharat Karnad writes the following about the accident involving the Akula. Gurus, please share your thoughts on this.
https://bharatkarnad.com/2017/10/08/akula-in-a-chakravyuh/
The Press reported Sept 4 about damage done to its sonar dome as the ex-Russian ‘Nerpa’ — Akula SSN — INS Chakra — was making its way back to or embarking on a patrol from — it isn’t clear which — its home base in Vishakhapatnam. ( http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/accident-on-board-ins-chakra/article19793626.ece). The Vizag channel is narrow and always challenging to negotiate, so this story is plausible.

However, another story is doing the rounds. It has to do with the discomfiture of Moscow with the growing closeness and intimacy between the Indian Navy and the US Navy and its fear that Americans may thus get access to the nuclear powered Akula submarine. The Akula is a showpiece of Russian engineering and still the leading SSN in the Russian fleet and the possibility of its being compromised in any way is not something Moscow will accept with equanimity.

It is to prevent such possibility that the 2011 $1 billion for 10 years lease-contract for the Akula-Chakra has a provision for a Russian naval officer to be physically on board the vessel at all times — whether under sail or in port in Vizag — cannot be certain, but especially when it is in port. Distrust has grown to the extent that there’s talk of a list being given to the Manmohan Singh government in its last days by Moscow with the names of Indian naval officers, who the Russian government of Vladimir Putin believes are in thick with the US and may compromise/endanger the Akula by allowing Americans direct access to the submarine technologies or, more likely, by passing on classified data and information about the performance and the workings of the Akula to the US Navy.

The Russians are riled that the Manmohan Singh regime did nothing with the list, and that the Modi government, likewise, has not acted on it to ensure the IN officers mentioned therein are not permitted to be anywhere near the Akula. This may explain Moscow’s hesitation and dragging out the negotiations for the lease for the second Akula — Iribis. Last year a weekly magazine carried the news about the Akula-Chakra needing to get back to Russia for refueling. This doesn’t make sense because it is not up for the refueling cycle until 2021-2022. Refueling is an onerous process that involves cutting through the titanium alloy hull to reach the reactor, and re-welding it after the fuel loading.

What is significant is to wonder whether it is refueling or repairing the bow part of the hull containing the “damaged” sonar dome that Chakra, the submarine has to go back to Russia. It may be a pretext for the Russians to get the boat back — the increasing level of mistrust the Russian Navy feels for the Indian Navy being the reason. Russia will keep this Akula in the dock long past the refueling and/or repair time. If the SSN leaves Indian shores it may not return for a long time, if at all. And there’ll be no SSN in Indian service.

This is a pretty drastic step being contemplated by Russia, and will suddenly and hugely degrade the Indian navy’s sea denial capability, of course, but also crimp our strategic deterrence in many ways, considering the Akulas can hunt down Chinese SSBNs in the Indian Ocean. However, considering how countries value and safeguard their advanced military technology and hardware, Russia’s actions — assuming these will take the course as stated above, are not to be wondered at.
 

Adioz

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Chinese SSBNs in the Indian Ocean


...............................................................................................
 

warrior monk

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Bharat Karnad writes the following about the accident involving the Akula. Gurus, please share your thoughts on this.
https://bharatkarnad.com/2017/10/08/akula-in-a-chakravyuh/
The Press reported Sept 4 about damage done to its sonar dome as the ex-Russian ‘Nerpa’ — Akula SSN — INS Chakra — was making its way back to or embarking on a patrol from — it isn’t clear which — its home base in Vishakhapatnam. ( http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/accident-on-board-ins-chakra/article19793626.ece). The Vizag channel is narrow and always challenging to negotiate, so this story is plausible.

However, another story is doing the rounds. It has to do with the discomfiture of Moscow with the growing closeness and intimacy between the Indian Navy and the US Navy and its fear that Americans may thus get access to the nuclear powered Akula submarine. The Akula is a showpiece of Russian engineering and still the leading SSN in the Russian fleet and the possibility of its being compromised in any way is not something Moscow will accept with equanimity.

It is to prevent such possibility that the 2011 $1 billion for 10 years lease-contract for the Akula-Chakra has a provision for a Russian naval officer to be physically on board the vessel at all times — whether under sail or in port in Vizag — cannot be certain, but especially when it is in port. Distrust has grown to the extent that there’s talk of a list being given to the Manmohan Singh government in its last days by Moscow with the names of Indian naval officers, who the Russian government of Vladimir Putin believes are in thick with the US and may compromise/endanger the Akula by allowing Americans direct access to the submarine technologies or, more likely, by passing on classified data and information about the performance and the workings of the Akula to the US Navy.

The Russians are riled that the Manmohan Singh regime did nothing with the list, and that the Modi government, likewise, has not acted on it to ensure the IN officers mentioned therein are not permitted to be anywhere near the Akula. This may explain Moscow’s hesitation and dragging out the negotiations for the lease for the second Akula — Iribis. Last year a weekly magazine carried the news about the Akula-Chakra needing to get back to Russia for refueling. This doesn’t make sense because it is not up for the refueling cycle until 2021-2022. Refueling is an onerous process that involves cutting through the titanium alloy hull to reach the reactor, and re-welding it after the fuel loading.

What is significant is to wonder whether it is refueling or repairing the bow part of the hull containing the “damaged” sonar dome that Chakra, the submarine has to go back to Russia. It may be a pretext for the Russians to get the boat back — the increasing level of mistrust the Russian Navy feels for the Indian Navy being the reason. Russia will keep this Akula in the dock long past the refueling and/or repair time. If the SSN leaves Indian shores it may not return for a long time, if at all. And there’ll be no SSN in Indian service.

This is a pretty drastic step being contemplated by Russia, and will suddenly and hugely degrade the Indian navy’s sea denial capability, of course, but also crimp our strategic deterrence in many ways, considering the Akulas can hunt down Chinese SSBNs in the Indian Ocean. However, considering how countries value and safeguard their advanced military technology and hardware, Russia’s actions — assuming these will take the course as stated above, are not to be wondered at.

Bharat Karnad ji is known for spinning yarns about India-US-Russia relationship which has to be taken with a pinch of salt . We started negotiating with the Russians from 2004 for leasing two Akula-II class attack nuclear
submarines and placed order for one of them in 2005 We also negotiated and placed orders for 14 E Klub-S land attack submarine launched cruise missiles, the Russians knew we are negotiating with the US govt for a nuclear deal to get out of the NPT chakravyuha , the Russians knew we were negotiating with the US they didn't mind then why mind now ?? We are not getting close to US at the cost of Russia which we have conveyed to Russia .
 

Adioz

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View attachment 20766
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You think PLAN is going to send a SSBN in Indian Ocean? Where we have the entire Indian Navy, the Americans on Diego Garcia and only three narrow corridors of entry for their submarines with Australia guarding one of them, India guarding another one and the third lying right next to the capital of Indonesia? Remember, these are Chinese SSBN, not a USN Ohio class.
And why would they when their Jl-2 SLBM can target any part of our country without having to come all the way down to the Indian ocean?
Bharat Karnad ji is known for spinning yarns about India-US-Russia relationship which has to be taken with a pinch of salt . We started negotiating with the Russians from 2004 for leasing two Akula-II class attack nuclear
submarines and placed order for one of them in 2005 We also negotiated and placed orders for 14 E Klub-S land attack submarine launched cruise missiles, the Russians knew we are negotiating with the US govt for a nuclear deal to get out of the NPT chakravyuha , the Russians knew we were negotiating with the US they didn't mind then why mind now ?? We are not getting close to US at the cost of Russia which we have conveyed to Russia .
Cause the Russians did not predict things would get to partnership stage between India and USA after Modi came to power.
 

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