Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[v952010]

nilgiri spotted in the video

 

[Adm Kenobi]

Not necessarily. They're basically an evolution and in a way, a continuation of the present missile boat formations. But as @binayak95 once said, in a war, the PN surface fleet isn't likely to survive long enough to even leave their berthing.

It's too big for a 'missile boat' and we don't need any missile boats to pummel PN.

These are more of A&N Fortress defence. Deploy en masse to bring far more missiles to bear than your average Chinese task force can deal with and then scatter.

The 'Fortress defence' would require a good AAW suite, which NGMV will not have. PLAN won't be sending a small SAG for war with IN, those are easy targets, either send 1 or more CSGs or don't send anything at all, a PLAN CSG will be able to handle a 32-48 missile salvo, *very* easily.

 

[Blademaster]

I hope he's right. Although, personally, I would want it to be based on the Israeli Sa'ar 6 class corvettes, which happen to be more heavily armed than our DDGs by the way.

But they cannot venture too far out in the sea and do not have long term sea keeping capability which matters a lot but does not get mentioned in armchair warriors’ discussions about better specs.

 

[Blood+]

It's too big for a 'missile boat' and we don't need any missile boats to pummel PN.

I said an evolution of the same idea!! It's read it, digest it and then comment on it - in that order.

The 'Fortress defence' would require a good AAW suite, which NGMV will not have. PLAN won't be sending a small SAG for war with IN, those are easy targets, either send 1 or more CSGs or don't send anything at all,

These are definitely geared towards the PN, to free up larger vessels to deal with the real threat.

a PLAN CSG will be able to handle a 32-48 missile salvo, *very* easily.

You would have to count land based missile batteries as well. Plus, even 48 missiles won't be as easy to beat for their CSGs as you made it out to be, if you consider the primary SAM system of PLAN DDG escorts!! S-300s were never designed to handle low flying cruise missiles.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

FY23-24 numbers are from the revised budget and FY24-25 is from the interim budget released today.

The Indian Navy projects such as acquisition of Deck-based fighter aircraft, Submarines, Next generation survey vessels etc. will all materialise through this allocation.

DBF and submarines most probably refer to the Rafale M and additional Scorpenes. 5 NGSV planned.

from the press release (do read it, it has some interesting stuff about AF/Army as well).

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=2001375

 

[Blood+]

But they cannot venture too far out in the sea and do not have long term sea keeping capability which matters a lot but does not get mentioned in armchair warriors’ discussions about better specs.

True but do we really need that great of a reach if these ships are to be exclusively used for the PN?? The projected range of 2800 nautical miles should be enough for the intended purpose. My only gripe is about the number of the order.

 

[Master Chief]

I said an evolution of the same idea!! It's read it, digest it and then comment on it - in that order.

These are definitely geared towards the PN, to free up larger vessels to deal with the real threat.


You would have to count land based missile batteries as well. Plus, even 48 missiles won't be as easy to beat for their CSGs as you made it out to be, if you consider the primary SAM system of PLAN DDG escorts!! S-300s were never designed to handle low flying cruise missiles.

Yup.. Aegis USS Gravely almost got hit today by a Houthi cruise missile.. Had to rely on last line of defense CIWS.. with Houthi missile hit just around a mile away from the ship.. Houthis fired a volley, and Aegis was almost hit... China will have a tough time facing far more capable Indian missile

 

[binayak95]

It's too big for a 'missile boat' and we don't need any missile boats to pummel PN.

The 'Fortress defence' would require a good AAW suite, which NGMV will not have. PLAN won't be sending a small SAG for war with IN, those are easy targets, either send 1 or more CSGs or don't send anything at all, a PLAN CSG will be able to handle a 32-48 missile salvo, *very* easily.

agreed about the numbers - but having a high low mix is always good. I dont doubt for one moment the NGMCs will only be motherships to a swarm of unmanned surface and subsurface vessels.

 

[binayak95]

I said an evolution of the same idea!! It's read it, digest it and then comment on it - in that order.

These are definitely geared towards the PN, to free up larger vessels to deal with the real threat.


You would have to count land based missile batteries as well. Plus, even 48 missiles won't be as easy to beat for their CSGs as you made it out to be, if you consider the primary SAM system of PLAN DDG escorts!! S-300s were never designed to handle low flying cruise missiles.

land based, air launched, submarine launched, a whole swarm of missiles being rammed down their throats.

 

[Blood+]

land based, air launched, submarine launched, a whole swarm of missiles being rammed down their throats.

And up the place where the sun doesn't shine and have two missiles make out with each other somewhere inside them.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

I said an evolution of the same idea!! It's read it, digest it and then comment on it - in that order.

The idea of a missile boat is to put AShM/LACM on a small boat, which does not cost much. NGMV is more than a missile boat and not cheap. Look at it as a corvette, not a missile boat like Vidyut class.

These are definitely geared towards the PN, to free up larger vessels to deal with the real threat.

Maybe, but corvettes like Khukri and Kora are part of the eastern fleet, and NGMV is likely to complement/replace those.

You would have to count land based missile batteries as well. Plus, even 48 missiles won't be as easy to beat for their CSGs as you made it out to be, if you consider the primary SAM system of PLAN DDG escorts!! S-300s were never designed to handle low flying cruise missiles.

A CSG possesses AEW aircraft, which makes it less (relatively) prone to succumb to sea-skimming missiles, HHQ-9s aren't entirely based on S-300, they have received better seeker and kinematic upgrades over the years. BrahMos launched by these ships (or NGMMCS) would need to cover very long distances, they will be flying high for the most part, making it relatively easier to intercept.
Aicraft on the other hand will be very effective against a CSG.
This is a very good topic to discuss some other day.

agreed about the numbers - but having a high low mix is always good. I dont doubt for one moment the NGMCs will only be motherships to a swarm of unmanned surface and subsurface vessels.

I agree. IN is planning the mothership role for MCMVs and NGC as well.

My love for the yet-to-materialise 'NGC' is making me degrade NGMV, what they should have been.

 

[Blood+]

A CSG possesses AEW aircraft, which makes it less (relatively) prone to succumb to sea-skimming missiles,

HHQ-9s aren't entirely based on S-300, they have received better seeker and kinematic upgrades over the years.

They are still using semi-active radar seekers and besides, S-300s in Ukrainian service have consistently failed to intercept Russian cruise missiles, so I've my doubts about these Chinese derivatives.

BrahMos launched by these ships (or NGMMCS) would need to cover very long distances, they will be flying high for the most part, making it relatively easier to intercept.

That is true but even still, I don't think they would be able to intercept all of them; not that many.

Aicraft on the other hand will be very effective against a CSG.

True.

My love for the yet-to-materialise 'NGC' is making me degrade NGMV, what they should have been.

Both orders should be morphed into the NGC, I agree. 16 of those vessels would be a real game changer.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

@binayak95 bhaiya what is the third guy on right doing the the third pic with whatever is in his hands?

 

[Hari Sud]

Dominant Indian Navy and the Indian Ocean

India is a naval power now. With about 170 fighting ships, including two nuclear submarines (soon to be more), two aircraft carriers with one additional on way with higher quality French fighters, 20 navalized MQ-9 drones, 15 American made P8I planes hunting submarines and multiple major impregnable naval bases, one in the East at Andaman at the mouth of Straits of Malacca. Also other bases at Vishakhpatnam and at Karwar to house and hide submarines etc.

Then India’s geography; sitting comfortable in the middle of three major oceans including Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal and Indian Ocean, India is good enough to exercise its influence. Remember 60 to 70% of China’s oil and commerce pass thru with India controlling the sea routes, what can China do. Practically nothing. They can send an intimidation force but that force will be sunk as soon as they enters the Indian Ocean via either Straits of Malacca or Straits of Sunda in Indonesia.

All the above has made India a naval power. Chinese are no match to this power as they will stay busy for the next one hundred years to grab Taiwan and exert control over China Sea upto Japan, hence other than propaganda, they are no match to India.

India made the master stroke to rush to the Gulf of Aden to police the western part of the Indian Ocean. At this time US, Briton and others are too busy to fight Middle East wars including naval action in the Red Sea. An opportunity was presented to India, and India grabbed it. In a short period of less than a month India warded off four attacks of pirates and hijackers. Even Pakistan could not believe that their own seamen were saved from the pirates.

Now the negative sayers in India and abroad are to be discouraged thoroughly. India has made it known that India is a naval power and will police the Indian Ocean. The West, please take a leave. Just provide the technology to India to maintain order.

 

[Tshering22]

Dominant Indian Navy and the Indian Ocean

India is a naval power now. With about 170 fighting ships, including two nuclear submarines (soon to be more), two aircraft carriers with one additional on way with higher quality French fighters, 20 navalized MQ-9 drones, 15 American made P8I planes hunting submarines and multiple major impregnable naval bases, one in the East at Andaman at the mouth of Straits of Malacca. Also other bases at Vishakhpatnam and at Karwar to house and hide submarines etc.

In order to attain the status of a major maritime power, we would need to maintain a fleet exceeding 370 warships. While we currently rank among the top 10 naval powers, this standing does not fully reflect our overall economic and military stature.

Our ranking of 6th by DWT places us behind the PLA Navy, US Navy, Russian Navy, JMSDF, and Royal Navy. However, it's worth noting that the Royal Navy's high DWT is partially inflated by the presence of two large but operationally limited aircraft carriers. Despite this, the Royal Navy possesses a formidable fleet of submarines and warships. The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) boasts advanced and sophisticated naval assets, while the PLA Navy is a backed by a steely industrial base, consistently commissioning dozens of frigates, submarines destroyers annually. Their strategy will never be carrier-centric but now they are large enough to take the US Navy head on near their home turf, aka Taiwan.

Then India’s geography; sitting comfortable in the middle of three major oceans including Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal and Indian Ocean, India is good enough to exercise its influence. Remember 60 to 70% of China’s oil and commerce pass thru with India controlling the sea routes, what can China do. Practically nothing. They can send an intimidation force but that force will be sunk as soon as they enters the Indian Ocean via either Straits of Malacca or Straits of Sunda in Indonesia.

All the above has made India a naval power. Chinese are no match to this power as they will stay busy for the next one hundred years to grab Taiwan and exert control over China Sea upto Japan, hence other than propaganda, they are no match to India.

Our geographical positioning provides certain advantages, but it appears that the Chinese have recognized this vulnerability and are actively addressing it. The entire Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) project was conceived as a contingency plan to mitigate the impact of congested maritime routes, particularly until the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLA-N) can alleviate pressure on the three strategic chokepoints. It should be noted that while the BRI may appear extravagant as an alternative to maritime trade, it effectively serves as a temporary substitute in the event of a conflict. The Chinese government has made significant efforts to safeguard their logistical networks, the ultimate purpose of which remains ambiguous, yet unchallenged due to the lack of courage among other nations to probe further.

Chokepoints pose a concern not only for a single nation, but for all, as evidenced by the fact that in today's shipping landscape, a tanker flying the flag of Iran but registered in Panama could transport crude oil from Saudi Arabia to China. Disrupting such trade routes would result in the inability to ascertain the final destination of the cargo and the ownership of the vessel, potentially leading to simultaneous discord with three countries. While these nations may lack the capacity to obstruct our actions, it would undoubtedly erode their trust in us over the long term.

India made the master stroke to rush to the Gulf of Aden to police the western part of the Indian Ocean. At this time US, Briton and others are too busy to fight Middle East wars including naval action in the Red Sea. An opportunity was presented to India, and India grabbed it. In a short period of less than a month India warded off four attacks of pirates and hijackers. Even Pakistan could not believe that their own seamen were saved from the pirates.

Now the negative sayers in India and abroad are to be discouraged thoroughly. India has made it known that India is a naval power and will police the Indian Ocean. The West, please take a leave. Just provide the technology to India to maintain order.

The allocation of financial resources for naval modernization requires greater attention, particularly as the interim budget was well, interim. It is anticipated that Prime Minister Modi will unveil the full budget following the electoral formalities.

Reflecting on our early years, the Navy was historically provided with the lowest budgetary allocation. Consequently, naval commanders were compelled to get creative and promote cost-effective yet modern solutions, giving a major boost to the domestic warship construction industry. The Navy's current leadership in indigenous endeavors significantly surpasses that of the Army and is exponentially ahead of the Indian Air Force (IAF). A similar approach, combining incentives and deterrents, should be applied to the IAF and the Army, discouraging an over-reliance on imports and incentivizing an aggressive domestic switch.

Anticipate heightened restrictions on technology access from the West in the coming decade, driven by their discomfort with our independent voice and a lack of mutual trust. Expect challenges related to product support for GE engines over the next five years. The Navy's initiative to encourage the Indian private sector to acquire a controlling stake in Zorya Mashproekt from Ukraine was a strategic coup, mitigating potential risks associated with technology constraints.

Doubling the size of our Navy in the next decade is imperative, leaving no alternative but to pursue this goal through all available means.

 

[Hari Sud]

In order to attain the status of a major maritime power, we would need to maintain a fleet exceeding 370 warships. While we currently rank among the top 10 naval powers, this standing does not fully reflect our overall economic and military stature.

Our ranking of 6th by DWT places us behind the PLA Navy, US Navy, Russian Navy, JMSDF, and Royal Navy. However, it's worth noting that the Royal Navy's high DWT is partially inflated by the presence of two large but operationally limited aircraft carriers. Despite this, the Royal Navy possesses a formidable fleet of submarines and warships. The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) boasts advanced and sophisticated naval assets, while the PLA Navy is a backed by a steely industrial base, consistently commissioning dozens of frigates, submarines destroyers annually. Their strategy will never be carrier-centric but now they are large enough to take the US Navy head on near their home turf, aka Taiwan.



Our geographical positioning provides certain advantages, but it appears that the Chinese have recognized this vulnerability and are actively addressing it. The entire Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) project was conceived as a contingency plan to mitigate the impact of congested maritime routes, particularly until the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLA-N) can alleviate pressure on the three strategic chokepoints. It should be noted that while the BRI may appear extravagant as an alternative to maritime trade, it effectively serves as a temporary substitute in the event of a conflict. The Chinese government has made significant efforts to safeguard their logistical networks, the ultimate purpose of which remains ambiguous, yet unchallenged due to the lack of courage among other nations to probe further.

Chokepoints pose a concern not only for a single nation, but for all, as evidenced by the fact that in today's shipping landscape, a tanker flying the flag of Iran but registered in Panama could transport crude oil from Saudi Arabia to China. Disrupting such trade routes would result in the inability to ascertain the final destination of the cargo and the ownership of the vessel, potentially leading to simultaneous discord with three countries. While these nations may lack the capacity to obstruct our actions, it would undoubtedly erode their trust in us over the long term.



The allocation of financial resources for naval modernization requires greater attention, particularly as the interim budget was well, interim. It is anticipated that Prime Minister Modi will unveil the full budget following the electoral formalities.

Reflecting on our early years, the Navy was historically provided with the lowest budgetary allocation. Consequently, naval commanders were compelled to get creative and promote cost-effective yet modern solutions, giving a major boost to the domestic warship construction industry. The Navy's current leadership in indigenous endeavors significantly surpasses that of the Army and is exponentially ahead of the Indian Air Force (IAF). A similar approach, combining incentives and deterrents, should be applied to the IAF and the Army, discouraging an over-reliance on imports and incentivizing an aggressive domestic switch.

Anticipate heightened restrictions on technology access from the West in the coming decade, driven by their discomfort with our independent voice and a lack of mutual trust. Expect challenges related to product support for GE engines over the next five years. The Navy's initiative to encourage the Indian private sector to acquire a controlling stake in Zorya Mashproekt from Ukraine was a strategic coup, mitigating potential risks associated with technology constraints.

Doubling the size of our Navy in the next decade is imperative, leaving no alternative but to pursue this goal through all available means.

Disagree with you!

If you have to police seven seas then a much bigger strength is required. If you are within the confines of Aden to Straits of Malacca then India has enough navy. Whatever are the shortcomings are being redressed in the next few years.

I do not envy China because they build fast on copied and reverse engineered technology with few experienced admirals and sailors. Their propaganda is bigger than their capability.

 

[karn]

Disagree with you!

If you have to police seven seas then a much bigger strength is required. If you are within the confines of Aden to Straits of Malacca then India has enough navy. Whatever are the shortcomings are being redressed in the next few years.

I do not envy China because they build fast on copied and reverse engineered technology with few experienced admirals and sailors. Their propaganda is bigger than their capability.

A PLAN CBG can potentially have 600 long range SAMs for defence (or 400 missiles for offence). The eastern IN fleet needs to have atleast 1.5 that in throw weight to counter it . Suffice to to say we ain't there yet.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

In order to attain the status of a major maritime power, we would need to maintain a fleet exceeding 370 warships. While we currently rank among the top 10 naval powers, this standing does not fully reflect our overall economic and military stature.

Our ranking of 6th by DWT places us behind the PLA Navy, US Navy, Russian Navy, JMSDF, and Royal Navy. However, it's worth noting that the Royal Navy's high DWT is partially inflated by the presence of two large but operationally limited aircraft carriers. Despite this, the Royal Navy possesses a formidable fleet of submarines and warships. The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) boasts advanced and sophisticated naval assets, while the PLA Navy is a backed by a steely industrial base, consistently commissioning dozens of frigates, submarines destroyers annually. Their strategy will never be carrier-centric but now they are large enough to take the US Navy head on near their home turf, aka Taiwan.



Our geographical positioning provides certain advantages, but it appears that the Chinese have recognized this vulnerability and are actively addressing it. The entire Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) project was conceived as a contingency plan to mitigate the impact of congested maritime routes, particularly until the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLA-N) can alleviate pressure on the three strategic chokepoints. It should be noted that while the BRI may appear extravagant as an alternative to maritime trade, it effectively serves as a temporary substitute in the event of a conflict. The Chinese government has made significant efforts to safeguard their logistical networks, the ultimate purpose of which remains ambiguous, yet unchallenged due to the lack of courage among other nations to probe further.

Chokepoints pose a concern not only for a single nation, but for all, as evidenced by the fact that in today's shipping landscape, a tanker flying the flag of Iran but registered in Panama could transport crude oil from Saudi Arabia to China. Disrupting such trade routes would result in the inability to ascertain the final destination of the cargo and the ownership of the vessel, potentially leading to simultaneous discord with three countries. While these nations may lack the capacity to obstruct our actions, it would undoubtedly erode their trust in us over the long term.



The allocation of financial resources for naval modernization requires greater attention, particularly as the interim budget was well, interim. It is anticipated that Prime Minister Modi will unveil the full budget following the electoral formalities.

Reflecting on our early years, the Navy was historically provided with the lowest budgetary allocation. Consequently, naval commanders were compelled to get creative and promote cost-effective yet modern solutions, giving a major boost to the domestic warship construction industry. The Navy's current leadership in indigenous endeavors significantly surpasses that of the Army and is exponentially ahead of the Indian Air Force (IAF). A similar approach, combining incentives and deterrents, should be applied to the IAF and the Army, discouraging an over-reliance on imports and incentivizing an aggressive domestic switch.

Anticipate heightened restrictions on technology access from the West in the coming decade, driven by their discomfort with our independent voice and a lack of mutual trust. Expect challenges related to product support for GE engines over the next five years. The Navy's initiative to encourage the Indian private sector to acquire a controlling stake in Zorya Mashproekt from Ukraine was a strategic coup, mitigating potential risks associated with technology constraints.

Doubling the size of our Navy in the next decade is imperative, leaving no alternative but to pursue this goal through all available means.

India's immediate strategy to defeat the PLAN in the Indian Ocean is to turn their own anti access strategy against them. We have to build and place hundreds of long range (2000km range) anti ship missiles all along our coast and a hundred plus in Andaman and Nicobar sheltered in hardened bunkers. Our P8's and the incoming MQ9's can already provide 24/7 surveillance i.e targeting information of all surface vessels in the IOR.

Here Brahmos's new 900km range is decent, but doesn't allow us to cover the whole ocean, just the shipping lanes close to us.

Hope they're working on this, along with our traditional naval buildup. PLAN surface fleet is simply massive. It outnumbers ours 5 to 1, and growing. Questions to the capability of their destroyers is just cope.

 

[binayak95]

@binayak95 bhaiya what is the third guy on right doing the the third pic with whatever is in his hands?

which picture of the four?

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

which picture of the four?

Third