Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[singhboy98]

IN is not desperate by any measure. Yes it needs both expansion and upgradation. But look at its competition. China is far far away with no real capacity to challenge Indian navy in Indian Ocean. Yes China has lots of submarine but that is why anti submarine warfare is focus of navy for a while with dedicated asw kamorta class to new shallow water asw ships ordered recently to acquisition of p8i and now mh60 helicopter.

Pakistan navy is very week. Indian cost guard might take on it and come ahead .

Compare this to challenges Indian army and airforce has to face and you will see real desperation.

Of course naval acquisition have been delayed just like all defense purchase but that is common problem of all forces.

Still with nuclear submarine and Scorpion coming up navy is getting enormous strength. Not to forget the new nuclear attack submarines that are in development and new lease for chakra ssn.

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I concur with your line of thinking. However, since we were talking about the Indian Navy here, it makes no sense to bring the other two services into the equation here. All the services have their unique challenges and critical shortages to combat. It is just that, in the the short term, our security challenges will be shouldered more by the IAF and the IN and hence greater attention is being (and should be) paid to address their concerns. However, make no mistake, if India ever wants to become a big power, it's Naval power should be on par with China and the USA (atleast qualitatively if not quantitatively). Our long term security challenges will most likely be shouldered largely by the Navy and hence pushing the Navy to the back of the line at the time of allocations will not work for long now.

 

[IndianHawk]

I concur with your line of thinking. However, since we were talking about the Indian Navy here, it makes no sense to bring the other two services into the equation here. All the services have their unique challenges and critical shortages to combat. It is just that, in the the short term, our security challenges will be shouldered more by the IAF and the IN and hence greater attention is being (and should be) paid to address their concerns. However, make no mistake, if India ever wants to become a big power, it's Naval power should be on par with China and the USA (atleast qualitatively if not quantitatively). Our long term security challenges will most likely be shouldered largely by the Navy and hence pushing the Navy to the back of the line at the time of allocations will not work for long now.

That's what I'm pointing out. Our naval program are driven by long term major power capabilities.
Delays in helicopter acquisition or mine counter measures etc are rooted in systemic bureaucratic problems and are common to all services . The solution is also not particular to navy but common for all force i.e. a much simple and effective procurement process.

With navy our planning is long game that is why SSBN and SSN project are moving along at full speed as they are the most necessary to rule Indian Ocean and beyond. That is why third carrier plans are taking so much time because we are looking to incorporate maximum latest technology.

Unfortunately the actual probability of any war lies on our land borders either with Pakistan or with China and hence airforce and army face more real and immediate threats . While Indian navy enjoys massive advantage vis a vis both China and Pakistan in Indian Ocean. That means navy can divert it's fund and focus in more long term orientation with deeper indegeniosation than other two forces which need to ramp up fighting ability much faster.

I think that is a major reason why navy is most indegeniosed of three forces despite long delays by our dockyards. It can take its time .

Even today barring USA we are the predominant naval power in the Indian Ocean.

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[IndianHawk]

India is not creating multivendor merely for Naval helicopters but for all defence needs from gun to planes to ships. The idea is yo simply develop industrial base to manufacture

My point is if HAL naval dhruv is to develop properly it needs funding and orders . If it is ever become a proven platform than it must enter service otherwise only foreign naval platform will be "proven platforms". And if HAL naval dhruv is not developed fully then despite ordering kamov or any foreign bird we'll only have one vendor that is the foreign one with Indian venture.
So at the we won't have multivendor for naval helicopter just a single vendor unless naval dhruv is fully developed.

So it's counter - intuitive to not order naval dhruv if the goal is multivendor situation .

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[Bhadra]

HAL wants to outsource production of advanced light helicopters Dhruv​

A Request for Proposal will soon be called to select an Indian private company for complete transfer of technology
T E Narasimhan | Chennai Last Updated at January 23, 2019 21:20 IST
https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/hal-wants-to-outsource-production-of-advanced-light-helicopters-dhruv-119012301300_1.html

Public sector firm Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is planning to outsource the manufacturing of its twin-engine Advance Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv.

Joint Secretary of Department of Defence Production, Chanderkar Bharati, said a Request for Proposal will soon be called to select an Indian private company for complete transfer of technology.

Bharati said the critical components of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas have already been outsourced.

"A couple of days ago, the L&T factory in Coimbatore had supplied wings of LCA to HAL," Bharati said while talking at Global Investors Meet, organised by Tamil Nadu Government.

"The government is taking efforts to indigenize hundreds of imported components/sub-assemblies," he said.
Bharati said that the value of outsourcing as a percentage of the value of production increased to 39 per cent in 2018 from 36 per cent, around four years ago.

"The annual Defence production in the private sector is expected to touch Rs 10,000 crore this year, up from Rs 5,500 crore last year and Rs 2,000 crore four years ago," he said.

Around 275 items that was licensed under Ordnance Factory reserve list has been de-notified so that the Armed Forces can go directly to the market and have competitive bidding in which Ordnance Factories can also apply, the official said.



First Published: Wed, January 23 2019. 20:30 IS

 

[IndianHawk]

I think it makes sense since India is poised to become a great naval power. The main strength of India lies in ruling her ocean.

Something I find very interesting but probably not pertinent to the discussion is that India is the only country with an ocean named after her. With the vast and pretty unobstructed till Antarctica, the Indian ocean will forever be the source of power projection of our country. Hence, the navy needs to be strengthened the most.

Agreed. And to become that India needs to complete most critical naval projects in the peacetime before Indian Ocean gets involved in any major conflict.
Now what are these most critical projects which need priority.
1 . SSBN project Arihant and following classes .
Work already underway , 2-3 boats already in water. In company Britain and France have 4-4 nuke subs while China has 6 and more building .
So not really bad progress.

2. K5 operationalization already going on. k6 to come with 10000km range mirv full fledged deterrence. Need to work on it faster. No dearth of funding.

3. SSN project. Already approved. Design not much difficult as Arihant class (6000ton) already provides an adequate and capable platform for SSN. ( In comparison France operates / operated SSN which are much smaller than Arihant class.) Work must be going on pretty fast knowing how ASAT program went under Modi .

4. SSN lease. New lease already contracted. So that India is never without an operational SSN.

5. More SSK , Scorpion are coming up regularly now. But yes 75i needs to be signed soon. I hope Modi will be proactive on this one.

6. With Vikrant ready we will have two carriers operational by 2021-22. That means one carrier shall always remain on duty even if other is under maintenance / refit.

7. Naval lca is back on track. Testing regularly gathering data. Nlca mk2 prototype is being worked upon already . Should enter service by 2026-27. Providing indegenios air wing.

8. Bramhos Extended with greater range upcoming also bramhos NG will arm mig29K and nlca mk2. Giving potent anti ship capabilities.

9. Major upgrade in anti submarine capabilities against China. Boing p8-i with powerful sensors and also harpoons for anti ship.
Kamorta class operational. New anti submarine ship contracted already ( 16 ships!)
New sophisticated helicopters. Mh60 for submarine hunting .

10. RFI for 57 naval birds out. Either hedge to nlca mk2 or for third carrier and Vikrant.

11. Barak 8 Sam operational. BEL has received many ship Sam systems already.

These are the projects at top of my hat which are going on already.


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[Bhadra]

My point is if HAL naval dhruv is to develop properly it needs funding and orders . If it is ever become a proven platform than it must enter service otherwise only foreign naval platform will be "proven platforms". And if HAL naval dhruv is not developed fully then despite ordering kamov or any foreign bird we'll only have one vendor that is the foreign one with Indian venture.
So at the we won't have multivendor for naval helicopter just a single vendor unless naval dhruv is fully developed.

So it's counter - intuitive to not order naval dhruv if the goal is multivendor situation .

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All your points may be valid but are extraneous and irrelevant to the point in issue.

Strategic Partnership Model, explained in ten posts in the thread, is not for creating multi vendor situation but is meant to create one (only one) private (I say again Private) industry capability in collaboration with a Foreign (I say again Foreign) OEM who shall carry out production of listed item by creating infrastructure and manufacturing facilities as also undertake ToT and local production of laid down percentage of components.

The aim is to create a robust private industry in that chosen field. Under category one (which applies for helicopters) only one such Private Industry and OEM will be chosen. Under category II, more than one Private industry and OEM can be chosen.

Govt forms such as DRDO / DPSU / OFB are not allowed to bid under SP Model.

So where has HAL and ALH jumped into this. They have already extended their leg into it illegally by making Kamov bid for it which a joint venture company partner of HAL with HAL owning it. I think that will also be rejected.

Only Airbus and Sikorsky will be in competition.

But I can see a situation wherein HAL will try and blackmail everyone, private industry partners will object and the issue will go supreme court.

Who will suffer ? None but the IN.

 

[IndianHawk]

All your points may be valid but are extraneous and irrelevant to the point in issue.

Strategic Partnership Model, explained in ten posts in the thread, is not for creating multi vendor situation but is meant to create one (only one) private (I say again Private) industry capability in collaboration with a Foreign (I say again Foreign) OEM who shall carry out production of listed item by creating infrastructure and manufacturing facilities as also undertake ToT and local production of laid down percentage of components.

The aim is to create a robust private industry in that chosen field. Under category one (which applies for helicopters) only one such Private Industry and OEM will be chosen. Under category II, more than one Private industry and OEM can be chosen.

Govt forms such as DRDO / DPSU / OFB are not allowed to bid under SP Model.

So where has HAL and ALH jumped into this. They have already extended their leg into it illegally by making Kamov bid for it which a joint venture company partner of HAL with HAL owning it. I think that will also be rejected.

Only Airbus and Sikorsky will be in competition.

But I can see a situation wherein HAL will try and blackmail everyone, private industry partners will object and the issue will go supreme court.

Who will suffer ? None but the IN.

This policy only applies if there is no local / domestic program already available. HAL has creating a local program to develop naval alh now. Equation has changed.

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[IndianHawk]

All your points may be valid but are extraneous and irrelevant to the point in issue.

Strategic Partnership Model, explained in ten posts in the thread, is not for creating multi vendor situation but is meant to create one (only one) private (I say again Private) industry capability in collaboration with a Foreign (I say again Foreign) OEM who shall carry out production of listed item by creating infrastructure and manufacturing facilities as also undertake ToT and local production of laid down percentage of components.

The aim is to create a robust private industry in that chosen field. Under category one (which applies for helicopters) only one such Private Industry and OEM will be chosen. Under category II, more than one Private industry and OEM can be chosen.

Govt forms such as DRDO / DPSU / OFB are not allowed to bid under SP Model.

So where has HAL and ALH jumped into this. They have already extended their leg into it illegally by making Kamov bid for it which a joint venture company partner of HAL with HAL owning it. I think that will also be rejected.

Only Airbus and Sikorsky will be in competition.

But I can see a situation wherein HAL will try and blackmail everyone, private industry partners will object and the issue will go supreme court.

Who will suffer ? None but the IN.

And if foreign company can only partner with private industry only as you typed so specifically why the hell then kamov partnered with HAL ??

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[Vijyes]

My point is if HAL naval dhruv is to develop properly it needs funding and orders . If it is ever become a proven platform than it must enter service otherwise only foreign naval platform will be "proven platforms". And if HAL naval dhruv is not developed fully then despite ordering kamov or any foreign bird we'll only have one vendor that is the foreign one with Indian venture.
So at the we won't have multivendor for naval helicopter just a single vendor unless naval dhruv is fully developed.

So it's counter - intuitive to not order naval dhruv if the goal is multivendor situation .

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It is not counter intuitive as HAL just needs support from government for R&D. But private companies need order. HAL does limited production and gets extensive user trials to make them fit even without big orders. HAL is big enough to be able to afford it.

So, we need to develop private industry first. Our PSU HAL one of the best in the world and doesn't need hand holding. So, even without giving much orders to HAL, the Technology & R&D funds as well as skillsets can be easily managed.

I think that is a major reason why navy is most indegeniosed of three forces despite long delays by our dockyards. It can take its time .

No, naval Technology is relatively much simpler than airforce one. That is why Navy is much more indigenised. Indian army is also well indigenised for similar reason- the Technology is much simpler. But in air force, Technology becomes complex and hence indigenisation is low

 

[Vijyes]

And if foreign company can only partner with private industry only as you typed so specifically why the hell then kamov partnered with HAL ??

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That will be rejected. HAL has submitted its proposal as backup but it is not a serious contender

 

[IndianHawk]

It is not counter intuitive as HAL just needs support from government for R&D. But private companies need order. HAL does limited production and gets extensive user trials to make them fit even without big orders. HAL is big enough to be able to afford it.

So, we need to develop private industry first. Our PSU HAL one of the best in the world and doesn't need hand holding. So, even without giving much orders to HAL, the Technology & R&D funds as well as skillsets can be easily managed.


No, naval Technology is relatively much simpler than airforce one. That is why Navy is much more indigenised. Indian army is also well indigenised for similar reason- the Technology is much simpler. But in air force, Technology becomes complex and hence indigenisation is low

How is naval technology simpler in nuclear submarine or aircraft carriers? It's as complex as anything out there and yet we have done it.



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[IndianHawk]

It is not counter intuitive as HAL just needs support from government for R&D. But private companies need order. HAL does limited production and gets extensive user trials to make them fit even without big orders. HAL is big enough to be able to afford it.

So, we need to develop private industry first. Our PSU HAL one of the best in the world and doesn't need hand holding. So, even without giving much orders to HAL, the Technology & R&D funds as well as skillsets can be easily managed.


No, naval Technology is relatively much simpler than airforce one. That is why Navy is much more indigenised. Indian army is also well indigenised for similar reason- the Technology is much simpler. But in air force, Technology becomes complex and hence indigenisation is low

Give less orders then. But orders are necessary otherwise naval alh will remain unproven. And this argument will be used by import supporting idiots.

The whole requirement is around 200 helis. I think order might be divided into two one for HAL one for kamov .

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[IndianHawk]

That will be rejected. HAL has submitted its proposal as backup but it is not a serious contender

Why would Russia partner with HAL If that is the case? Kamov 226 is the frontrunner from what I gather from news.

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[Vijyes]

How is naval technology simpler in nuclear submarine or aircraft carriers? It's as complex as anything out there and yet we have done it.



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We have not yet obtained catapult Technology or Technology for carrier aircraft. Nuclear submarine is a technology based on nuclear reactor in a submarine and was done by various countries as early as 1960. Even China did it by 1974. Moreover, we haven't yet got SSN but only SSBN which is simpler.

 

[IndianHawk]

We have not yet obtained catapult Technology or Technology for carrier aircraft. Nuclear submarine is a technology based on nuclear reactor in a submarine and was done by various countries as early as 1960. Even China did it by 1974. Moreover, we haven't yet got SSN but only SSBN which is simpler.

Doesn't make it any easier. SSN program is ongoing although it is secretive as it should be.
Catapult can be obtained from either usa or France . The big deal is power supply for catapult. Anyway UK and China also don't have catapults. Not that big of a problem .



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[Vijyes]

Give less orders then. But orders are necessary otherwise naval alh will remain unproven. And this argument will be used by import supporting idiots.

The whole requirement is around 200 helis. I think order might be divided into two one for HAL one for kamov .

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No, that will never happen. We are going to indigenise even the JV choppers. There is a deadline of 5 years for indigenisation. Even the engine will likely be supplied by HAL HTSE1200. So, there is no import lobby herebut just development of private industry. So, on one hand, PSU & DRDO will develop Technology & expertise while on the other hand private will also.

Yes, HAL will be given orders fro NUH too. But this will be at a later stage and after development trials

Why would Russia partner with HAL If that is the case? Kamov 226 is the frontrunner from what I gather from news.

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Russia is already partnering with HAL for orders for Ka226T for IA & IAF. So, making some more for NUH won't hurt. But it is likely to be rejected as it is too small and doesn't suit the 5-6 ton category need

 

[Vijyes]

Doesn't make it any easier. SSN program is ongoing although it is secretive as it should be.
Catapult can be obtained from either usa or France . The big deal is power supply for catapult. Anyway UK and China also don't have catapults. Not that big of a problem .



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Catapult & aircraft capable of flying from carrier is what makes carrier Technology high end. Without them, carrier is low end cement and steel. Making simple ski jump is not at all high Technology.

About SSN, yes, India has developed the Technology and are going fast. Nevertheless, the Technology of aircraft and the speed at which it has to move and react is simply massive. Nothing compares to the Technology of the fighter aircrafts.

 

[IndianHawk]

Catapult & aircraft capable of flying from carrier is what makes carrier Technology high end. Without them, carrier is low end cement and steel. Making simple ski jump is not at all high Technology.

About SSN, yes, India has developed the Technology and are going fast. Nevertheless, the Technology of aircraft and the speed at which it has to move and react is simply massive. Nothing compares to the Technology of the fighter aircrafts.

I understand that. Point is since only 2 countries use catapult out of 10-11 who use aircraft or helicopter carriers so even with conventional carrier we are not that far behind. We'll get their with third carrier.

Even in aircrafts we are rapidly progressing.
7 programs are underworks simultaneously
1. Lca mk1 production.
2. Lca mk1a development with aesa and ew suite and longer bvr.
3. Mwf fighter development . Design is done.
4. Nlca mk2 even before mwf . Prototype in works.
5. AMCA detailed design phase. Also NAMCA with it.
6. Rustom II / tapas drone program.
7. Aura drone system.
Also lca sport trainer if sanctioned!

as the proverbial saying goes we are taking giant leaps .

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[Vijyes]

I understand that. Point is since only 2 countries use catapult out of 10-11 who use aircraft or helicopter carriers so even with conventional carrier we are not that far behind. We'll get their with third carrier.

Even in aircrafts we are rapidly progressing.
7 programs are underworks simultaneously
1. Lca mk1 production.
2. Lca mk1a development with aesa and ew suite and longer bvr.
3. Mwf fighter development . Design is done.
4. Nlca mk2 even before mwf . Prototype in works.
5. AMCA detailed design phase. Also NAMCA with it.
6. Rustom II / tapas drone program.
7. Aura drone system.
Also lca sport trainer if sanctioned!

as the proverbial saying goes we are taking giant leaps .

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Yes we are developing rapidly. I am only saying why we don't have indigenisation in high level for IAF but we have high indigenisation for navy & army. The reason being relatively higher Technology in IAF.

PS - Helicopter carrier is a piece of shit. It is an insult to aircraft carriers to consider helicopter carrier as an aircraft carrier even if it has F35C type VTOL planes.

 

[Bhadra]

This policy only applies if there is no local / domestic program already available. HAL has creating a local program to develop naval alh now. Equation has changed.

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No not at all. Where does DPP or amendments say so ?
And where is the existing technology of NUH ?
Flying of Kamarpatta?? or On INS Magar ??
OR HAL lab ??

The technology does not exist until it is operational and proven.???