Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[ezsasa]

L&T is doing really good. They've been delivering naval patrol vessels like clockwork lately.

Yup, there is a trend of delivery ahead of time in last three-four years. Not just L&T but other companies too. They are also earning bonus payments for finishing the projects early.

This scenario largely applies to vessels with very little import components like OPVs.

 

[Adioz]

This scenario largely applies to vessels with very little import components like OPVs

Exactly. So a Russia-L&T JV for submarines is most likely going to be delayed, not because of L&T, but Russia.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Exactly. So a Russia-L&T JV for submarines is most likely going to be delayed, not because of L&T, but Russia.

Russian submarine will complicate logistics for India. We can't have too many submarines of different types at once. Russia has agreed to give full ToT and allow for complete indigenisation. So, delay for Russian parts will be minimal. But the problem is with unnecessary logistical cost and possible loss of expertise of MDL.

Best way is to fully indigenise scorpenes and then make them in India in large quantity.

 

[mayfair]

Russia or for that matter anyone NEVER gives FULL ToT. They always hold back key components, the crown jewels so to speak.

 

[Adioz]

fully indigenise scorpenes and then make them in India in large quantity.

Again, questions about IPR. No matter how many Scorpene components you make in India, it will remain a French submarine.

Russia has agreed to give full ToT and allow for complete indigenisation. So, delay for Russian parts will be minimal.

"Full ToT" and "minimal delays" do not belong in the same line as "Russia".

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Russia or for that matter anyone NEVER gives FULL ToT. They always hold back key components, the crown jewels so to speak.

This is your assumption without basis. There can be no arguments based on such assumptions.

Again, questions about IPR. No matter how many Scorpene components you make in India, it will remain a French submarine.

"Full ToT" and "minimal delays" do not belong in the same line as "Russia".

It is irrelevant who has the IPR of scorpene. If India makes a variant of scorpene called Mathsya class, with design from scorpene with some Indian modifications, it becomes Indian submarine. All India has to do is absorb the technology and then be capable of manufacturing all the parts in India. There is no IPR involved here.

Full ToT with minimum delays did take place in case of several Russian items. You are ignorant of history and that is your problem. By the way, I am not recommending Russian submarines as it will cost logistical problems. Case closed.

 

[binayak95]

This is your assumption without basis. There can be no arguments based on such assumptions.

HA HA HA HA.

Had that been the case, Tank EX would have been a success, we wouldn't have to import useless MANGO rounds for our tanks, our Su-30s and MiG29s wouldnt have less than 60% availability.

We wouldn't have to cook up a story of HULL BREACH on the Chakra to dry dock it and then study its design. DO you know Russian naval officers are mandated to be present in the submarine throughout its operational life?

T-90s didn't come with IR sights, AC or APS... all of which had to be retrofitted later.

Russians overcharged us on everything! From the Vikramaditya to spares for fighters to ammunition for arty and tanks.

Russians are cheats and backstabbers who use us as cash cow to fund their projects and then sell those same tech to the Chinks.

 

[mayfair]

This is your assumption without basis. There can be no arguments based on such assumptions..

You are right, despite posting details and reports after reports how OEMs have denied us the critical tech and the know-why, you refused to acknowledge. There is little to be argued with you.

Weren't you the one claiming that India has fully indeginsed AL31 engines and then we pointed out that the critical components of the engine tech and metallurgy still need to be sourced from Russia because they did not transfer the tect?

It is irrelevant who has the IPR of scorpene. If India makes a variant of scorpene called Mathsya class, with design from scorpene with some Indian modifications, it becomes Indian submarine. All India has to do is absorb the technology and then be capable of manufacturing all the parts in India. There is no IPR involved here.

Full ToT with minimum delays did take place in case of several Russian items. You are ignorant of history and that is your problem. By the way, I am not recommending Russian submarines as it will cost logistical problems. Case closed.

Nope, read again. A full ToT is when you not only build the product but build future iterations based on the tech that was absorbed.

But here we still need to go back to the OEMs for critical updates,not only because of the contracts but also we do not know HOW and WHY was it done that way.

LCA is Indian, Scorpene is not. See the difference?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

HA HA HA HA.

Had that been the case, Tank EX would have been a success, we wouldn't have to import useless MANGO rounds for our tanks, our Su-30s and MiG29s wouldnt have less than 60% availability.

We wouldn't have to cook up a story of HULL BREACH on the Chakra to dry dock it and then study its design. DO you know Russian naval officers are mandated to be present in the submarine throughout its operational life?

T-90s didn't come with IR sights, AC or APS... all of which had to be retrofitted later.

Russians overcharged us on everything! From the Vikramaditya to spares for fighters to ammunition for arty and tanks.

Russians are cheats and backstabbers who use us as cash cow to fund their projects and then sell those same tech to the Chinks.

Tell me who is responsible for the mess? Russians or UPA? Don't you think that UPA has sabotaged Indian defence deliberately rather than Russia cheating? Who can have any meaningful relationship with people who elect such vile people as leaders.

If UPA did not exist, then the situation would be different. Can't blame Russia for what UPA did. Congress in general is the sole culprit. And people who did not rebel and wipe out congress are also equally guilty. Russia was dealing with UPA govt and not Indians directly. Russia has behaved well when NDA was in power or even with people like Narasimha Rao. The only aberration is with UPA and that means UPA was at fault, not Russia. We can't expect any reasonable people or entity to deal with congress. Period.

As for MANGO rounds, they are now indigenised and being made in OFB since FY18. Do you think Russia is stupid to allow India to dry dock and study Chakra? Russia keeps its officer on Chakra as it is not sold to India but "leased" due to pressure from NSG. But, assuming that Russia does not understand the trick of India to dry dock Chakra is not correct. Russia was most probably complicit and allowed India to study it and that is how the incident was staged.

You are right, despite posting details and reports after reports how OEMs have denied us the critical tech and the know-why, you refused to acknowledge. There is little to be argued with you.

Weren't you the one claiming that India has fully indeginsed AL31 engines and then we pointed out that the critical components of the engine tech and metallurgy still need to be sourced from Russia because they did not transfer the tect?



Nope, read again. A full ToT is when you not only build the product but build future iterations based on the tech that was absorbed.

But here we still need to go back to the OEMs for critical updates,not only because of the contracts but also we do not know HOW and WHY was it done that way.

LCA is Indian, Scorpene is not. See the difference?

Su30 is built in India and India makes all the critical equipments here. I have always been saying taht LA31F is made in India and have given sufficient evidence. You just make arbitrary claims without any basis but just on your feelings. The only solution is that you should control your feelings, assumptions and start basing your words on facts.

ToT is when India can make the product and modify it as per needs. India can make Su30 and even integrate missiles like Brahmos, Astra, Sudarshan bombs, SAAW etc on it. Inia makes airframe, engine, radar and all other critical parts of Su30. It is not Russian duty to train Indian scientists and engineers on desiging new things. Their ToT is just about that particular design and its manufacture, not teaching Indian engineers and scientists.

LCA is Indian and Scorpene will be Indian. The only difference is the difference in timeline

 

[mayfair]

Su30 is built in India and India makes all the critical equipments here. I have always been saying taht LA31F is made in India and have given sufficient evidence. You just make arbitrary claims without any basis but just on your feelings.

Looks like I touched a nerve.

But here we go again

https://www.business-standard.com/a...-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html

Through years of building the Su-30MKI, HAL Nashik has gradually mastered the expertise that makes it one of the world's most feared fighters. Says the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, S Subrahmanyan: "More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49 per cent agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India.

Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components - or 73 per cent - are now being built in India.

Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI - including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia.

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.

There you have it, despite "73%" indigenisation, we make only 51% of it BY VALUE.

This is stated by HAL chief, you know the firm that ACTUALLY builds these planes in India.

The high-tech engine stuff ALL comes from Russia.

Assembled in India =/= MADE IN INDIA.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Looks like I touched a nerve.

But here we go again

https://www.business-standard.com/a...-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html



There you have it, despite "73%" indigenisation, we make only 51% of it BY VALUE.

This is stated by HAL chief, you know the firm that ACTUALLY builds these planes in India.

The high-tech engine stuff ALL comes from Russia.

Assembled in India =/= MADE IN INDIA.

I have been given this article countless number of times before by many others too. The problem is that this is december 2014 article whereas I am only saying that after Modi came, the ToT was finalised for engine. It was from FY16, i.e. after April 2015, that Su30 engines were made fully in India. Just read the discussion of the same in LCA thread (the latest one) page 13 : https://defenceforumindia.com/forum...ndias-second-supersonic-fighter.76545/page-13

 

[binayak95]

Tell me who is responsible for the mess? Russians or UPA? Don't you think that UPA has sabotaged Indian defence deliberately rather than Russia cheating? Who can have any meaningful relationship with people who elect such vile people as leaders.

If UPA did not exist, then the situation would be different. Can't blame Russia for what UPA did. Congress in general is the sole culprit. And people who did not rebel and wipe out congress are also equally guilty. Russia was dealing with UPA govt and not Indians directly. Russia has behaved well when NDA was in power or even with people like Narasimha Rao. The only aberration is with UPA and that means UPA was at fault, not Russia. We can't expect any reasonable people or entity to deal with congress. Period.

As for MANGO rounds, they are now indigenised and being made in OFB since FY18. Do you think Russia is stupid to allow India to dry dock and study Chakra? Russia keeps its officer on Chakra as it is not sold to India but "leased" due to pressure from NSG. But, assuming that Russia does not understand the trick of India to dry dock Chakra is not correct. Russia was most probably complicit and allowed India to study it and that is how the incident was staged.

There is no lack of naive fools on this forum. Bravo my friend...

Mango rounds ... sigh ... do you even know what's their penetration rate?

As far as Russia is concerned :
they sell S400s to China, Su-35S to China, threaten to sell Su57 to China since we backed off, plan to sell Mi 35Ms to Porks, are doing a MASSIVE joint exercise with China as we speak (Vostok 2018) and are planning to train Porki officers.. but nahi humm toh chutie hain..

Russian tech support is abysmal - so much so that the IAF and the IN summarily reject Russian equipment nowadays - the MiG35 and the Amur project didnt even make it past the technical qualifications in the two respective tenders. Ditto for the Il76 vs C-17 and the Il78 vs the A330M. Same for ATGMs. Same for SPGs.

Madame Sitharaman went as far as completely ignoring Russian stalls at DefExpo 2018 to send a message across.

It has become a transactional relationship and is on a downward spiral at the moment. Understand this, buying Russian arms == subsidizing Chinese military buildup.

Its high time we stopped buying Russian arms and this govt is doing exactly the same. We have scrapped FGFA, we will scrap the 2nd nuke sub (mark my words) and no scope for Amur tie up with L&T despite Ajai Shukla's prostitution.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

As far as Russia is concerned :
they sell S400s to China, Su-35S to China, threaten to sell Su57 to China since we backed off, plan to sell Mi 35Ms to Porks, are doing a MASSIVE joint exercise with China as we speak (Vostok 2018) and are planning to train Porki officers.. but nahi humm toh chutie hain..

Russian tech support is abysmal - so much so that the IAF and the IN summarily reject Russian equipment nowadays - the MiG35 and the Amur project didnt even make it past the technical qualifications in the two respective tenders. Ditto for the Il76 vs C-17 and the Il78 vs the A330M. Same for ATGMs. Same for SPGs

Just get this message - only enemies of India are jihadis, not China. Nehru under the instruction of CIA provoked China by hosting Tibet govt in exile and that is what made China enemy of India. If India had behaved more maturely and not elected such a vile person as Nehru into PM spot, then China would have been a friendly nation by all means. What is needed now is to assure China that we won't stoke Tibet issue and that will settle all rivalry.

Mark my words - Modi will improve ties with China and China will no longer be considered as enemy soon. The discussions are already happening fast and several rounds of negtotiations have taken place which have yielded satisfactory results already

India is buying Mi17, Ka226T, S400 in Russia. Russia has also given investment to India in the form of buying ESSAR etc. IL78 is Indian refueling tanker, not substitute for C17. India is planning to buy A330M for its AEWACS, not substitute IL78.

Madame Sitharaman went as far as completely ignoring Russian stalls at DefExpo 2018 to send a message across.

If you are basing it on Ajai Shukla blog, some people in Bharat Rakshak have refuted it by posting this image:

It has become a transactional relationship and is on a downward spiral at the moment. Understand this, buying Russian arms == subsidizing Chinese military buildup.

Its high time we stopped buying Russian arms and this govt is doing exactly the same. We have scrapped FGFA, we will scrap the 2nd nuke sub (mark my words) and no scope for Amur tie up with L&T despite Ajai Shukla's prostitution.

UPA era had cause many problems to India. UPA made Nepal king abdicate and caused problems in Nepal too. But I see a revival of relation with many orders coming forward recently.

There will not be any more nuclear submarine lease as India already makes its own submarine and it makes no sense to lease another from Russia. This is quite obvious. Amur is not yet developed by Russia and it is foolish o think that India will buy it. But this has got nothing to do with the relationship. India has scorpene which is being indigenised and hence does not need Amur.

Stop believing in paid news and dalals. If you have any first hand contact in the army/Navy, only then believe the news. Else, try to get second opinions and other sources to corroborate

 

[mayfair]

After Modi came, the ToT was finalised for engine. It was from FY16, i.e. after April 2015, that Su30 engines were made fully in India. Just read the discussion of the same in LCA thread (the latest one) page 13 : https://defenceforumindia.com/forum...ndias-second-supersonic-fighter.76545/page-13

Can you confirm that single crystal blade technology and alloy composition along with the tooling for AL31Fp engine has been fully transferred to India after 2016?

Can you share the source for this?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Can you confirm that single crystal blade technology and alloy composition along with the tooling for AL31Fp engine has been fully transferred to India after 2016?

Can you share the source for this?

Al31FP does not use single crystal blade. Single crystal blades are needed only for blades with rhenium. Al31FP and Kaveri uses Directionally solidified blades without rhenium. There is a lot of discussion of rhenium deficit, strategic nature of rhenium which can act as a tool with foreign countries during war etc on this forum itself. That is why India does not use single crystal blades.

Even without single crystal, 2nd generation DS blades also provide good TET (70 celsius less than 3rd generation SCB and 30 celsius less than 2nd generation SCB) which can provide reasonably high TWR but with lowered lifespan. Nevertheless, it is preferred over being dependent on imports.

PS: India does not and will not use SCB blades and will stick with 2nd generation DS blades to avoid rhenium problem.

 

[binayak95]

Just get this message - only enemies of India are jihadis, not China. Nehru under the instruction of CIA provoked China by hosting Tibet govt in exile and that is what made China enemy of India. If India had behaved more maturely and not elected such a vile person as Nehru into PM spot, then China would have been a friendly nation by all means. What is needed now is to assure China that we won't stoke Tibet issue and that will settle all rivalry.

Mark my words - Modi will improve ties with China and China will no longer be considered as enemy soon. The discussions are already happening fast and several rounds of negtotiations have taken place which have yielded satisfactory results already

India is buying Mi17, Ka226T, S400 in Russia. Russia has also given investment to India in the form of buying ESSAR etc. IL78 is Indian refueling tanker, not substitute for C17. India is planning to buy A330M for its AEWACS, not substitute IL78.


If you are basing it on Ajai Shukla blog, some people in Bharat Rakshak have refuted it by posting this image:

UPA era had cause many problems to India. UPA made Nepal king abdicate and caused problems in Nepal too. But I see a revival of relation with many orders coming forward recently.

There will not be any more nuclear submarine lease as India already makes its own submarine and it makes no sense to lease another from Russia. This is quite obvious. Amur is not yet developed by Russia and it is foolish o think that India will buy it. But this has got nothing to do with the relationship. India has scorpene which is being indigenised and hence does not need Amur.

Stop believing in paid news and dalals. If you have any first hand contact in the army/Navy, only then believe the news. Else, try to get second opinions and other sources to corroborate

AREH this is that Kshitji guy. FUCKING chinese fan. IGNORE him!!

 

[Adioz]

AREH this is that Kshitji guy. FUCKING chinese fan. IGNORE him!!

I suspected so. This guy keeps coming back with different IDs. And then pretends to be a different guy

He was @Vijyes first, then @Kshithij and now @Advaidhya Tiwari.
He needs to stop being so obvious if he is going to go through all this trouble.

 

[mayfair]

Al31FP does not use single crystal blade. Single crystal blades are needed only for blades with rhenium. Al31FP and Kaveri uses Directionally solidified blades without rhenium. There is a lot of discussion of rhenium deficit, strategic nature of rhenium which can act as a tool with foreign countries during war etc on this forum itself. That is why India does not use single crystal blades.

Even without single crystal, 2nd generation DS blades also provide good TET (70 celsius less than 3rd generation SCB and 30 celsius less than 2nd generation SCB) which can provide reasonably high TWR but with lowered lifespan. Nevertheless, it is preferred over being dependent on imports.

PS: India does not and will not use SCB blades and will stick with 2nd generation DS blades to avoid rhenium problem.

Thanks for the info. That was most informative.

But that did not answer my question. Did Russia transfer the technology for "Directionally solidified blades" in the Al31FP engine? Can you confirm that and add your sources?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Thanks for the info. That was most informative.

But that did not answer my question. Did Russia transfer the technology for "Directionally solidified blades" in the Al31FP engine? Can you confirm that and add your sources?

I don't know if Russia gave ToT or India made it on its own. All I know is that India makes AL31FP fully in India without external dependency

 

[mayfair]

I don't know if Russia gave ToT or India made it on its own. All I know is that India makes AL31FP fully in India without external dependency

Please post a source for your claim. Could you direct me where could I find more details about this?