Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

Bhurki

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2018
Messages
1,301
Likes
1,764
Recently been digging around the defence expenditure details and what not .. Found out the entire fund allotted to navy ship fleet modernisation is only Rs.10300 crore. I wonder how they manage so many projects P15B, P17A, P75, P75I and other conventional projects.
I do understand some projects like arihant SSBN(ATV) might be partially funded by unaudited 'black' accounts assigned to intelligence agencies etc under direct control by NSA.
Anybody mind explaining a bit.
 

Attachments

vampyrbladez

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
10,262
Likes
26,571
Country flag
Mind linking the thread ?
Although a little debate wouldnt be too bad, or are we already too self conscious of the low armament loadout on our destroyers?
Derailing after debating about real projects that do exist wouldn't be too bad if we realize an actual fault, instead of just babbling about would be and could be concepts.
Search in the P 15B thread. Some chowmein tried to derail it with blog pics from sina.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,761
Likes
22,787
Country flag
Barak 8 is designed to be guided by MF STAR. That's a major bottleneck. We can use a FCR but there seems to be no elegant solution. Perhaps the missiles will be stowed in VLS and guided by bigger platforms like P 17A and P 15A/B.

Its a misconception that MF-STAR could be accommodated only on large ships.

The MF-STAR incorporates a light weight antenna that can be tailored to fit even relatively small ship sizes (corvettes and above)
http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/3/42053.pdf
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,761
Likes
22,787
Country flag
The report where it says P28 ships will be equipped with Barak-8 seems incorrect. While the 3D CAR radar fitted onboard the P28 ships is no toy, it is the same radar used for guiding Akash missiles, it is not compatible with Barak-8. While interfacing could be achieved by working in it, the radar is not capable of tracking supersonic targets and guiding SAMs to ranges close to 100 km, which is Barak-8's current operating envelop.

The Revathi radar is said to have about 200 km tracking range, but I don't think it can lock on high speed low RCS targets and guide missiles as far as Barak-8 can go. The radar was built for Akash, a 25km range missile. With its current form and capability, it is highly unlikely that it can guide Barak-8.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
Even though the discussion was on SR-SAM, but you seem to be dead on sticking with LR_SAM. Now when you are talking about long range engagement, lets look at a scenario.

RCS of Tomahawk is 0.5m2. Now lets assume that missile like BRAHMOS would have near about same RCS. Now Automatic track initiation of MF-STAR for such a low flying missile is 25km. Now if it starts tracking at 25km for BRAHMOS, it would get just 25 seconds to lock and target. Is it enough?

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/3/42053.pdf

Now when you talk about Revathi RADAR its a S band RADAR as same as MF-STAR. Its not for what it is being used, but what is its capability. A S band RADAR would have same capability to detect target at range albeit its make. For BARAK, it has been coded to act with MF-STAR just like 3D-CAR with Akash.

Moreover its not like that P28 can't be fitted with MF-STAR. I have already quoted IAI while replying to @vampyrbladez
 

Kranthi

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2012
Messages
152
Likes
70
Even though the discussion was on SR-SAM, but you seem to be dead on sticking with LR_SAM. Now when you are talking about long range engagement, lets look at a scenario.

RCS of Tomahawk is 0.5m2. Now lets assume that missile like BRAHMOS would have near about same RCS. Now Automatic track initiation of MF-STAR for such a low flying missile is 25km. Now if it starts tracking at 25km for BRAHMOS, it would get just 25 seconds to lock and target. Is it enough?

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/3/42053.pdf

Now when you talk about Revathi RADAR its a S band RADAR as same as MF-STAR. Its not for what it is being used, but what is its capability. A S band RADAR would have same capability to detect target at range albeit its make. For BARAK, it has been coded to act with MF-STAR just like 3D-CAR with Akash.

Moreover its not like that P28 can't be fitted with MF-STAR. I have already quoted IAI while replying to @vampyrbladez
Yes we may be able to fit MF-STAR on the P28 class, but I don't think that is going to happen. Those ships are meant for a different purpose.

And coming the above scenario, MF-Star and Barak-8 we built specifically with supersonic missiles in mind. How effective the system is to respond in such a short time after detecting a missile is unknown. Leaving that, the MF-STAR system is an active electronically scanned radar with constant 360°coverage. The Revathi is not AESA, and then it is a rotating radar which means the tracking is not continuous. Say the radar makes 30 rotations port minute, it means the fire control system recieves targeting update every two seconds. Most ASMs make Zig-Zag moves while closing in on the target. So no, the radar might not be good enough for targeting high speed targets.

But I got be wrong and the could be more to it. I would be happy to be proven wrong and the radar is indeed so good, it is home made !!

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,761
Likes
22,787
Country flag
P28A maybe (NGC/NGMV) but not P 28. Revati has limited viability and can only accommodate Maitri, QRSAM and Astra.
@Kranthi @vampyrbladez .... At the very first, I would like to mention that I have quoted the reports regarding MF-STAR and BARAK 8 integration on P28 and P-17A whereas you are forwarding a personal hypothesis. So lets not talk about it now. Neither INS Kamorta nor INS Kavaratti had got any SAM as of now.

Second, Revathi is a Acquisition RADAR instead of FCR. So its function is totally different from MF-STAR on board. The pic I shared is of inhouse S band FCR. Now it might not guide BARAK 8 as of now due to algorithm, but its guidance mode is as same as MF-STAR. So BARAK 8 being a JV, you could never be sure of tomorrow.

Third, it is a idea floated around in media that only BARAK 8 is capable of intercepting BRAHMOS or any other supersonic missile. But till date it has not been tested against any supersonic target AFAIK. So saying that BARAK 8 has the only capability to intercept a supersonic target and MICA can't is only a hypothesis as of now. A ship needs both long range interception as well as close range interception capability. Only BARAK 8 is not enough for both the role.
 

vampyrbladez

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
10,262
Likes
26,571
Country flag
@Kranthi @vampyrbladez .... At the very first, I would like to mention that I have quoted the reports regarding MF-STAR and BARAK 8 integration on P28 and P-17A whereas you are forwarding a personal hypothesis. So lets not talk about it now. Neither INS Kamorta nor INS Kavaratti had got any SAM as of now.

Second, Revathi is a Acquisition RADAR instead of FCR. So its function is totally different from MF-STAR on board. The pic I shared is of inhouse S band FCR. Now it might not guide BARAK 8 as of now due to algorithm, but its guidance mode is as same as MF-STAR. So BARAK 8 being a JV, you could never be sure of tomorrow.

Third, it is a idea floated around in media that only BARAK 8 is capable of intercepting BRAHMOS or any other supersonic missile. But till date it has not been tested against any supersonic target AFAIK. So saying that BARAK 8 has the only capability to intercept a supersonic target and MICA can't is only a hypothesis as of now. A ship needs both long range interception as well as close range interception capability. Only BARAK 8 is not enough for both the role.
P 28 has Revati Radar with 150 km range. It has been configured to a SRSAM with VL MICA.

Barak 8 has been designed to intercept Yakhont P 800 which is a precursor of the BrahMos design. When you design a missile interceptor you go for a more advanced margin thus it being designed for BrahMos is likely with Indian JV.

http://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/content/barak-8-versus-yakhont

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4731443,00.html

One can have 64 Barak 8 if as I have mentioned before a MLU deep upgrade which will be available only in P 18 class (Next Gen Destroyer/ Next Gen Frigate) as per IN.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,761
Likes
22,787
Country flag
P 28 has Revati Radar with 150 km range. It has been configured to a SRSAM with VL MICA.

Barak 8 has been designed to intercept Yakhont P 800 which is a precursor of the BrahMos design. When you design a missile interceptor you go for a more advanced margin thus it being designed for BrahMos is likely with Indian JV.

http://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/content/barak-8-versus-yakhont

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4731443,00.html

One can have 64 Barak 8 if as I have mentioned before a MLU deep upgrade which will be available only in P 18 class (Next Gen Destroyer/ Next Gen Frigate) as per IN.
Revathi is not a FCR.

Three-D Surveillance Radar System, Revathi:It is medium range 3D surveillance radar to be fitted in ASW Corvette class of ships to detect air and sea surface target
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=bharani.jsp

Now as far as intercepting a supersonic CM is concerned, its not just the missile, but the TAR and FCR which also plays a role. An active seeker is just a part of missile. But first of all you would have to indentify, track and target the missile before launching the counter measure. So basically its MF-STAR whose capability would come into play first rather then BARAK 8 in interception. Now BARAK 8 might or might not intercept a Yakhont or BRAHMOS. In the same way MICA might or might not intercept a supersonic missile.

But my point is, one missile can't give you the 100% kill probability. With increase in speed the kill probability of defensive weapon too decreases. So you need to have a layered defence. So for that we need both LR-SAM as well as SR-SAM.
 

vampyrbladez

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
10,262
Likes
26,571
Country flag
Revathi is not a FCR.



https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=bharani.jsp

Now as far as intercepting a supersonic CM is concerned, its not just the missile, but the TAR and FCR which also plays a role. An active seeker is just a part of missile. But first of all you would have to indentify, track and target the missile before launching the counter measure. So basically its MF-STAR whose capability would come into play first rather then BARAK 8 in interception. Now BARAK 8 might or might not intercept a Yakhont or BRAHMOS. In the same way MICA might or might not intercept a supersonic missile.

But my point is, one missile can't give you the 100% kill probability. With increase in speed the kill probability of defensive weapon too decreases. So you need to have a layered defence. So for that we need both LR-SAM as well as SR-SAM.
  • A radar by itself can give beam guidance and allow for mid course correction so it can act as FCR.
  • Barak 8 HAS been designed to intercept Yakhont Missile aka Brahmos cousin. So Brahmos interception is not very far. Ajai Shukla wrote an article on the matter here.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2015/12/lr-sam-operationalised-indian-navy.html

About five-to-seven kilometres short of the target, a seeker on the interceptor’s nose switched on, locking it onto the target. To accelerate the interceptor, which was by now merely coasting, the dual-pulse motor fired for a second time. This increased the interceptor’s velocity up to Mach 5-7, enabling it to manoeuvre sharply in tandem with the target’s evasive zigzags.
  • SRSAM can be like ESSM , Umkhonto, Aster 15 and Barak 1. Limited ability of missile to intercept supersonic missiles makes it a liability other than CIWS as a hail mary pass weapon.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,761
Likes
22,787
Country flag
  • A radar by itself can give beam guidance and allow for mid course correction so it can act as FCR.
Surveillance RADAR and FCR RADAR are two very different system. Even in MF-STAR, MF stands for MultiFunction S for Surveillance TAR for Tracking and Guidance RADAR. So you see that when functionality of Surveillance and Tracking has been brought together, the term Multi Function been used. As I already quoted, Revathi is a surveilllance RADAR, not a Tracking and missile guidance RADAR.
  • Barak 8 HAS been designed to intercept Yakhont Missile aka Brahmos cousin. So Brahmos interception is not very far. Ajai Shukla wrote an article on the matter here.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2015/12/lr-sam-operationalised-indian-navy.html



  • SRSAM can be like ESSM , Umkhonto, Aster 15 and Barak 1. Limited ability of missile to intercept supersonic missiles makes it a liability other than CIWS as a hail mary pass weapon.
You have quoted what has been written, not what been tested. In this case SR-SAM by MBDA has successfully demonstrated a supersonic target interception while BARAK 1 or 8 has yet to show its prowess in it.

The French Navy has successfully completed the first aerial target live fire of the US Navy’s GQM-163A Coyote Supersonic Sea Skimming Target (SSST), off the Ile du Levant coast, France.

During the trials, the French Navy’s Horizon-class air defence frigate, Forbin successfully tracked the GQM-163A SSST and intercepted the Coyote target with an Aster 30 surface-to-air missile in flight.
https://www.naval-technology.com/ne...y-intercepts-supersonic-sea-skimming-missile/

So in light of this, don't you think a MBDA system like Aster or MICA is better bet against BRAHMOS then BARAK 8?
 

vampyrbladez

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
10,262
Likes
26,571
Country flag
Surveillance RADAR and FCR RADAR are two very different system. Even in MF-STAR, MF stands for MultiFunction S for Surveillance TAR for Tracking and Guidance RADAR. So you see that when functionality of Surveillance and Tracking has been brought together, the term Multi Function been used. As I already quoted, Revathi is a surveilllance RADAR, not a Tracking and missile guidance RADAR.


You have quoted what has been written, not what been tested. In this case SR-SAM by MBDA has successfully demonstrated a supersonic target interception while BARAK 1 or 8 has yet to show its prowess in it.



https://www.naval-technology.com/ne...y-intercepts-supersonic-sea-skimming-missile/

So in light of this, don't you think a MBDA system like Aster or MICA is better bet against BRAHMOS then BARAK 8?
  • These features relate to the 3D CAR radar. Specifications for the Rohini, 3D TCR and Revathi are available in the links below.
    • Medium-range 3D surveillance
    • S band operation
    • Surveillance range more than 180 km
    • Covers elevation of 18 km in height
    • High-altitude deployability
    • Deployment in less than 20 minutes
    • 150 Targets in TWS
    • Array of ECCM features
    • Integrated IFF
    • Capable of detecting low-altitude targets, and also supersonic aircraft flying at over Mach 3 speed
    • Frequency agility and jammer analysis
    • The central acquisition radar (3D-CAR) is a 3D radar developed by DRDO for use with Akash SAM capable of tracking 150 targets.


  • The test was carried out with the cooperation of an Italian firm, which provided a missile that imitated the Yakhont and similar missiles. The Barak 8, which is not unlike the well-known Iron Dome anti-missile system, succeeded in intercepting it.

    Sources in the defense establishment told Channel 2 that the Yakhont missiles also threaten Israeli gas drilling platforms stationed in Israeli “economic waters.” During the Second Lebanon War, a similar missile struck the INS Hanit, killing four soldiers.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/186093
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,761
Likes
22,787
Country flag
  • These features relate to the 3D CAR radar. Specifications for the Rohini, 3D TCR and Revathi are available in the links below.
    • Medium-range 3D surveillance
    • S band operation
    • Surveillance range more than 180 km
    • Covers elevation of 18 km in height
    • High-altitude deployability
    • Deployment in less than 20 minutes
    • 150 Targets in TWS
    • Array of ECCM features
    • Integrated IFF
    • Capable of detecting low-altitude targets, and also supersonic aircraft flying at over Mach 3 speed
    • Frequency agility and jammer analysis
    • The central acquisition radar (3D-CAR) is a 3D radar developed by DRDO for use with Akash SAM capable of tracking 150 targets.
Lets take couple of points from here.

Medium-range 3D surveillance : Denotes the primary function of the RADAR.... Surveillance

Integrated IFF : Again a characteristic of surveillance RADAR.

150 Targets in TWS : Track while Scan............ Now although this term confuses a lot. But we have to understand that Track while Scan is a part of Fire control computation rather then target illumination carried out by FCR.

The central concept underlying any track-while-scan system is that the sensor itself continues to perform its primary function of search (scanning) and data input, while the remainder of the system performs the target tracking function. The sensor simply provides target position data to the computer subsystem where target velocities and position prediction are calculated. In a military application, the major advantage of a TWS system is the elimination of the process of target designation from a search radar to a fire control radar. The tracking information, developed in the TWS system, is used as a direct data input to the computation of a fire control solution. Therefore, as soon as a target is detected, a fire control solution is available without the inherent delay caused by the designation process. The time required from first detection to fire control solution is on the order of seconds for a TWS system, as opposed to tens of seconds or even minutes for a manually designated system employing separate search and fire control sensors.
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part06.htm

So you see, the function of a tracking RADAR is to provide target information to fire control solution rather then acting as a target illumination like MF-STAR for semi active missile.

Illuminator enslavement for semi-active missiles
http://www.iai.co.il/2013/34481-36668-en/Groups_ELTA_EltaNumber_Products-ELM.aspx

Thanks for this info. So BARAK 8 and Aster both could intercept a supersonic target. So why stick with just a LR-SAM when we could have a layered defence with a capable SR-SAM complimenting the LR-SAM?
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2018
Messages
1,579
Likes
1,443
Indian Navy to Receive 7 Additional Long-Range Surface-to-Air Systems

Indian state-owned aerospace and defense company Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) announced on September 5 that is has been awarded a $1.28 billion contract from Indian shipyards Mazagaon Dock Shipbuilder Limited (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) to deliver seven Barak 8 long-range surface-to-air missile systems (LRSAM), also referred to as and Barak LR, for service in the Indian Navy.

“The company has entered into contracts worth about Rs 9,200 crore with Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) to supply LRSAM systems,” BEL said in a September 5 statement. “This is the highest-ever single value order bagged by BEL.” The LRSAM systems will be installed aboard seven surface warfare ships of the Indian Navy.

Ships to be fitted with the LRSAM include Visakhapatnam-class guided missile destroyers, Kolkata-class destroyers, Kamorta-class anti-submarine warfare corvettes, and the future Project 17A class of stealth frigates. The missile defense system will also be installed aboard the INS Vikrant, India’s first indigenously built aircraft carrier. Four Indian Navy ships have already been fitted with the LRSAM systems.

The Barak 8 LRSAM missile defense system has been jointly developed by IAI and India’s state-owned Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) in collaboration with defense contractors in Israel, including Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, and in India. The two countries began join work on the LRSAM in 2006 with a first successful test firing of the missile system taking place in May 2010.

(The missile was last test fired by the Indian Navy from the 7,500-ton Kolkata-class (Project 15A) guided-missile destroyer INS Kochi in November 2017.)

The vertically-launched two-stage Barak 8, fitted with advanced radio frequency/infrared homing seekers, is designed to deal with a wide range of incoming airborne threats and can intercept targets as close as 500 meters away from a ship. The missile has a maximum speed of Mach 2 and its maximum range is estimated at around 70 kilometers (an extended range version of the Barak 8 can reportedly intercept targets at a distance of up to 150 kilometers.)

LRSAM also features a multifunction active electronically scanned array naval radar system providing 360 degree coverage.

The Indian military is also slated to receive the land-based version of the LRSAM, dubbed medium-range surface-to-air missile (MRSAM) system. The Indian Army is expected to stand up five MRSAM regiments by 2023 which, next to missile launch platforms will also come with command and control systems, and tracking radar systems.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2018
Messages
1,579
Likes
1,443
Mazgaon Dock to diversify into exports & vessel repairing

State-run warships and submarine builder Mazgaon Dock Shipbuilders (MDS) is aiming to diversify into exports and vessel repairing, and also creating a facility at nearby Nhava, a senior official said Thursday.

The company, which is reportedly aiming to raise up to Rs 850 crore in divestment for the government through an initial public offering (IPO) soon, is completely dependent on the defence ministry for its business at present.

It has an order book of Rs 52,000 crore, including four P-15 bravo destroyers, seven P-17 frigates and five of the remaining Kalvari-class Scorpene submarines.

Its director Capt Rajiv Lath said while the margins for the shipbuilding are capped at 7.5 per cent, the same for repairs and also exports are higher, which makes both the segments endearing from a profitability perspective.

"We are looking for exports of ships, including commercial ships and ship repairs in a big way," he said.

Another company official added that a delegation from Egypt was at the in south Mumbai yesterday to discuss a possible deal and stressed that in the past as well, it has exported ships.

Looking at the thrust given to defence given the geopolitical realities and the country's aspirations at a global stage, the company feels there will be a higher demand for hardware in the future and specifically pointed out to Indian Navy's comments to be a 200-ship strong fleet by 2027 and the order for next generation submarine in the works.

MDS is exploring to utilise its 40-acre land parcel at Nhava, adjacent to the country's largest container port JNPT across the city harbour, which will house both repair and shipbuilding facilities, he said.

The total sea frontage is over 150 metres and there is a deep draft of over 10 metres where container vessels are plying at present, a senior official said, adding that it will require investments of more than Rs 900 crore, which was spent in various developmental works recently.

The official, however, declined to quantify the investments and also clarified that the IPO proceeds will not be used for the expansion.

At present, MDS operates out of a land parcel measuring over 60 acres in what is the financial capital's eastern waterfront. It has been operating from here since 1770, when the British East India Company set it up for repairing ships.

Lath said last of the vessels on order at present will be delivered to the Navy by 2025 and will include one delivery of Scorpene class submarines per year till 2022, starting with 'INS Khanderi' by December this year.

A senior official hinted delivery of the INS Vishakhapatnam (P-15 bravo) may be ahead of the revised timeline of 2021.
 

vampyrbladez

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
10,262
Likes
26,571
Country flag
Lets take couple of points from here.

Medium-range 3D surveillance : Denotes the primary function of the RADAR.... Surveillance

Integrated IFF : Again a characteristic of surveillance RADAR.

150 Targets in TWS : Track while Scan............ Now although this term confuses a lot. But we have to understand that Track while Scan is a part of Fire control computation rather then target illumination carried out by FCR.



https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part06.htm

So you see, the function of a tracking RADAR is to provide target information to fire control solution rather then acting as a target illumination like MF-STAR for semi active missile.



http://www.iai.co.il/2013/34481-36668-en/Groups_ELTA_EltaNumber_Products-ELM.aspx



Thanks for this info. So BARAK 8 and Aster both could intercept a supersonic target. So why stick with just a LR-SAM when we could have a layered defence with a capable SR-SAM complimenting the LR-SAM?
Target illumination can be done by radar as well. Only difference is resolution and range. FCR is mainly used for guidance during launch.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,761
Likes
22,787
Country flag
Target illumination can be done by radar as well. Only difference is resolution and range. FCR is mainly used for guidance during launch.
Ofcourse..... But guidance during launch is provided by Fire Control System instead of RADAR. A FCR basically helps the missile to ride on its beam unlike a tracking RADAR which helps in calculating the position of the target.

I agree on your resolution and range part. Due to high frequency, reslution is better but range is smaller.
 

Kshatriya87

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
10,136
Likes
16,039
Country flag
India, Russia likely to sign warship deal at Modi-Putin meet next month

India and Russia are expected to hammer out a deal for four more Krivak/Talwar class stealth frigates for the navy in October when Prime Minister Narendra Modi and president Vlamidir Putin meet in New Delhi for an annual summit between the two countries,two senior officials familiar with the matter, said on Tuesday.

Two of the warships will be constructed at the Yantar Shipyard in Kaliningrad and the remaining two at the Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL).

GSL chairman Shekhar Mita, a retired rear admiral, said the two countries have completed the groundwork for signing the deal.

“After the contract is signed, Russia will take four years to deliver the two warships. We will take six years to build the first warship and one more year to deliver the second,” said Mital, who was part of an Indian delegation that visited the Yantar Shipyard in August.

India inked an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) with Russia for the four frigates in 2016. The navy currently operates six stealth frigates — three Talwar class and three Teg class — bought from Russia and inducted between 2003 and 2013.

The new Grigorovich-class ‘Project 1135.6’ frigates will be powered by gas turbine engines to be supplied by Ukrainian firm Ukroboronprom’s Gas Turbine Research & Production Complex Zorya-Mashproekt.

Several Russian delegations have visited GSL and are satisfied with the facilities there.

The two countries are also likely to sign a Rs 39,000-crore deal for the supply of the Russian S-400 Triumf air defence missile systems to India during the summit, brushing aside Washington’s concerns about the purchase. The S-400 is capable of destroying jets, missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles at a range of 400km.

Washington has already flagged concerns about the S-400 purchase, saying it complicates interoperability between Indian and American forces, amid US sanctions against Russia.

India is in talks with the US to secure a sanctions waiver as its military is heavily dependent on Russian equipment. “The US understands our concerns. They know there are legacy issues,” said an official on condition of anonymity. India and Russia are also exploring ways to bypass the American sanctions.
 

sorcerer

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
26,919
Likes
98,471
Country flag
An L&T-Russian partnership - India’s 30-year Submarine Acquisition Plan

Embattled by the controversy over the procurement of 36 Rafale fighters from France, the defence ministry is initiating a slew of defence acquisitions, worth almost Rs 4 trillion. These would take years to fructify but would allow the Bharatiya Janata Party to claim while campaigning for elections that it was safeguarding India’s defence.

These include the procurement of 110 fighter aircraft worth about Rs 1.25 trillion, 57 naval fighters worth Rs 750 billion, S-400 air defence systems worth Rs 400 billion, artillery guns worth Rs 150 billion, rifles worth Rs 100 billion, warships worth Rs 350 billion and two naval helicopter purchases for an estimated Rs 250 billion.

All these are, while urgently needed, potentially controversial. But there is a low-hanging fruit: Project 75-I — a Rs 400-billion purchase that is operationally vital, relatively non-controversial and which includes a sizeable component of “Make in India”. This involves building six submarines in the country, with an Indian vendor taking essential technology from a foreign original equipment manufacturer (OEM).

The tendering process has already begun. Global submarine OEMs were issued a “request for information (RFI)” in June 2017 and responses received in October. The navy chief has revealed that four global vendors had responded: Rosoboronexport from Russia, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) from Germany, Kockums from Sweden, and Naval Group from France — which is already partnering Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL), Mumbai, in building six Scorpene submarines in India. Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industries was asked whether it would offer its vaunted Soryu-class submarine but, surprisingly, given Tokyo was willing to supply submarines to the Australian navy, declined to participate. To partner the four OEMs in the fray, the Navy has launched the process to select an Indian “strategic partner (SP)”, which would, under the new SP model of procurement, receive technology from the OEMs to build the submarine in India. The procurement process involves selecting the right combination of OEM and SP, evaluating technical capability, technology on offer and the price quoted.

While Admiral Lanba breezily stated he was hopeful “we’ll be able to make progress on this case by the end of 2018”, he did not define “progress” and the complexity of this procurement seems likely to delay it interminably. Given India’s need to counter China’s growing presence in the Indian Ocean, many more submarines are urgently needed. China will soon operate 60 submarines and, with the Indian Navy down to barely 15 submarines, even the neglected Pakistan Navy poses a daunting submarine threat. India’s 30-year plan, made out in 1999, to build 24 submarines has so far yielded just one boat (submariners quaintly refer to their lethal vessels as “boats”) with five more in the pipeline. It is essential, therefore, to kick-start Project 75-I.

Instead of wasting another five years toing-and-froing on the procurement (a conservative time-frame, given the defence ministry’s contracting record), Indian interests demand that Project 75-I must be awarded immediately on “nomination” basis. The winners select themselves: Larsen & Toubro with Russia’s Rosoboronexport as the technology partner. The two must work together to build six Amur-class boats, driven by air independent propulsion (AIP) developed recently by the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO). The defence ministry must mandate indigenous content of 50 per cent for the first boat and 60 per cent for subsequent vessels. Tight timelines must be laid down, with financial penalties for infringements.

It is essential to spell out the logic for this bold recommendation. First, the selection of a Russian partner would conform to India’s 30-year submarine plan, in which the Union cabinet has mandated that if the first six boats are of western origin, the second six be of eastern origin, with the last 12 of Indian design, incorporating the best of east and west. The Navy has had a positive experience with its Foxtrot-class and Kilo-class Russian submarines, and with the two nuclear-powered boats taken on lease. The Amur class, a vast improvement on the Kilo-class vessels the Navy currently uses, promises to continue the Russian tradition of sturdy, economical, relatively silent boats. Continuing with the Kilo-based logistics infrastructure would save money. Fitting the BrahMos cruise missile, which the Navy wants on Project 75-I submarines, would be far easier on a Russian boat. The Russian Navy is buying four Amur-class vessels under the Russian Armament State Programme for 2018-2025, with the builder, Admiralty Shipyard, having already built two prototypes as the Lada-class.

L&T selects itself even more forcefully. Amongst Indian private-sector shipyards, it is the only one with both infrastructure and credentials to build a line of submarines. Its new Kathupalli Shipyard, near Chennai, compliments its Hazira facility in Gujarat. While building hulls and machinery for the Arihant-class nuclear submarines, L&T has accumulated extensive experience of working to Russian designs and with Russian metallurgy, both of which find a prominent place in our indigenous warship design and construction traditions. The DRDO-developed AIP system that is required to be integrated into Project 75-I submarines, has L&T as its principle integrator. A senior L&T engineer says the company already has 85 per cent of the technology needed for fabricating a Russian-designed boat for Project 75-I. Besides L&T, only the Pipavav Shipyard, belonging to Anil Ambani’s Reliance Naval and Engineering Ltd, has the infrastructure to build submarines, but its abysmal record of delivery — it is years late in delivering five naval offshore patrol vessels, a far more simple warship than a submarine — makes it a dubious choice. Further, the continuing political uproar over offset-related orders placed on Reliance Defence by Dassault after the Rafale deal would give the government pause.

The other contender is MDL, which is pitching strongly for Project 75-I, arguing that its experience gained while building six Scorpene submarines under Project 75 should not be wasted and a follow-up submarine construction order be urgently placed. Even if the public sector MDL were to be allowed to bid as an SP (the model is actually intended to bring the private sector into defence manufacture), it would be hard pressed to match L&T on price. MDL has the infrastructure but would need to pay more for technology transfer. MDL has absorbed French manufacturing practices in the Scorpene programme, but building Russian is another game.

Further, MDL has submarine work aplenty even after delivering all six Scorpenes. The Navy’s four German-origin Shishumar-class submarines — which were commissioned between 1986-1994 and have completed 24-32 years of service — are overdue for their life cycle extension overhauls, which would take until 2030 to complete. At the same time, the Scorpene submarines are already becoming due for mid-life upgrades and for retrofitting the AIP system during the upgrade. The first boat, INS Kalvari, commissioned last year, will fall due for an upgrade in 2023, followed by the other five. With MDL having built both the Shishumar-class and the Kalvari-class, it would be logical to entrust it with their upgrades.

That leaves only the question: What would Washington, already riled over India’s purchase of the S-400 from Russia, have to say about an equally strategic submarine purchase from Moscow. Here the US has a weak case, given that it has steadfastly refused to share submarine technology with India. If threatened with sanctions under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act, New Delhi, has only to reply: Let us co-manufacture the Virginia class nuclear attack submarine instead, and we will drop the Amur immediately. After all, that is what defence partners do!

https://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/an-l-t-russian-partnership-118091001347_1.html
 

Kshatriya87

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
10,136
Likes
16,039
Country flag
An L&T-Russian partnership - India’s 30-year Submarine Acquisition Plan

Embattled by the controversy over the procurement of 36 Rafale fighters from France, the defence ministry is initiating a slew of defence acquisitions, worth almost Rs 4 trillion. These would take years to fructify but would allow the Bharatiya Janata Party to claim while campaigning for elections that it was safeguarding India’s defence.

These include the procurement of 110 fighter aircraft worth about Rs 1.25 trillion, 57 naval fighters worth Rs 750 billion, S-400 air defence systems worth Rs 400 billion, artillery guns worth Rs 150 billion, rifles worth Rs 100 billion, warships worth Rs 350 billion and two naval helicopter purchases for an estimated Rs 250 billion.

All these are, while urgently needed, potentially controversial. But there is a low-hanging fruit: Project 75-I — a Rs 400-billion purchase that is operationally vital, relatively non-controversial and which includes a sizeable component of “Make in India”. This involves building six submarines in the country, with an Indian vendor taking essential technology from a foreign original equipment manufacturer (OEM).

The tendering process has already begun. Global submarine OEMs were issued a “request for information (RFI)” in June 2017 and responses received in October. The navy chief has revealed that four global vendors had responded: Rosoboronexport from Russia, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) from Germany, Kockums from Sweden, and Naval Group from France — which is already partnering Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL), Mumbai, in building six Scorpene submarines in India. Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industries was asked whether it would offer its vaunted Soryu-class submarine but, surprisingly, given Tokyo was willing to supply submarines to the Australian navy, declined to participate. To partner the four OEMs in the fray, the Navy has launched the process to select an Indian “strategic partner (SP)”, which would, under the new SP model of procurement, receive technology from the OEMs to build the submarine in India. The procurement process involves selecting the right combination of OEM and SP, evaluating technical capability, technology on offer and the price quoted.

While Admiral Lanba breezily stated he was hopeful “we’ll be able to make progress on this case by the end of 2018”, he did not define “progress” and the complexity of this procurement seems likely to delay it interminably. Given India’s need to counter China’s growing presence in the Indian Ocean, many more submarines are urgently needed. China will soon operate 60 submarines and, with the Indian Navy down to barely 15 submarines, even the neglected Pakistan Navy poses a daunting submarine threat. India’s 30-year plan, made out in 1999, to build 24 submarines has so far yielded just one boat (submariners quaintly refer to their lethal vessels as “boats”) with five more in the pipeline. It is essential, therefore, to kick-start Project 75-I.

Instead of wasting another five years toing-and-froing on the procurement (a conservative time-frame, given the defence ministry’s contracting record), Indian interests demand that Project 75-I must be awarded immediately on “nomination” basis. The winners select themselves: Larsen & Toubro with Russia’s Rosoboronexport as the technology partner. The two must work together to build six Amur-class boats, driven by air independent propulsion (AIP) developed recently by the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO). The defence ministry must mandate indigenous content of 50 per cent for the first boat and 60 per cent for subsequent vessels. Tight timelines must be laid down, with financial penalties for infringements.

It is essential to spell out the logic for this bold recommendation. First, the selection of a Russian partner would conform to India’s 30-year submarine plan, in which the Union cabinet has mandated that if the first six boats are of western origin, the second six be of eastern origin, with the last 12 of Indian design, incorporating the best of east and west. The Navy has had a positive experience with its Foxtrot-class and Kilo-class Russian submarines, and with the two nuclear-powered boats taken on lease. The Amur class, a vast improvement on the Kilo-class vessels the Navy currently uses, promises to continue the Russian tradition of sturdy, economical, relatively silent boats. Continuing with the Kilo-based logistics infrastructure would save money. Fitting the BrahMos cruise missile, which the Navy wants on Project 75-I submarines, would be far easier on a Russian boat. The Russian Navy is buying four Amur-class vessels under the Russian Armament State Programme for 2018-2025, with the builder, Admiralty Shipyard, having already built two prototypes as the Lada-class.

L&T selects itself even more forcefully. Amongst Indian private-sector shipyards, it is the only one with both infrastructure and credentials to build a line of submarines. Its new Kathupalli Shipyard, near Chennai, compliments its Hazira facility in Gujarat. While building hulls and machinery for the Arihant-class nuclear submarines, L&T has accumulated extensive experience of working to Russian designs and with Russian metallurgy, both of which find a prominent place in our indigenous warship design and construction traditions. The DRDO-developed AIP system that is required to be integrated into Project 75-I submarines, has L&T as its principle integrator. A senior L&T engineer says the company already has 85 per cent of the technology needed for fabricating a Russian-designed boat for Project 75-I. Besides L&T, only the Pipavav Shipyard, belonging to Anil Ambani’s Reliance Naval and Engineering Ltd, has the infrastructure to build submarines, but its abysmal record of delivery — it is years late in delivering five naval offshore patrol vessels, a far more simple warship than a submarine — makes it a dubious choice. Further, the continuing political uproar over offset-related orders placed on Reliance Defence by Dassault after the Rafale deal would give the government pause.

The other contender is MDL, which is pitching strongly for Project 75-I, arguing that its experience gained while building six Scorpene submarines under Project 75 should not be wasted and a follow-up submarine construction order be urgently placed. Even if the public sector MDL were to be allowed to bid as an SP (the model is actually intended to bring the private sector into defence manufacture), it would be hard pressed to match L&T on price. MDL has the infrastructure but would need to pay more for technology transfer. MDL has absorbed French manufacturing practices in the Scorpene programme, but building Russian is another game.

Further, MDL has submarine work aplenty even after delivering all six Scorpenes. The Navy’s four German-origin Shishumar-class submarines — which were commissioned between 1986-1994 and have completed 24-32 years of service — are overdue for their life cycle extension overhauls, which would take until 2030 to complete. At the same time, the Scorpene submarines are already becoming due for mid-life upgrades and for retrofitting the AIP system during the upgrade. The first boat, INS Kalvari, commissioned last year, will fall due for an upgrade in 2023, followed by the other five. With MDL having built both the Shishumar-class and the Kalvari-class, it would be logical to entrust it with their upgrades.

That leaves only the question: What would Washington, already riled over India’s purchase of the S-400 from Russia, have to say about an equally strategic submarine purchase from Moscow. Here the US has a weak case, given that it has steadfastly refused to share submarine technology with India. If threatened with sanctions under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act, New Delhi, has only to reply: Let us co-manufacture the Virginia class nuclear attack submarine instead, and we will drop the Amur immediately. After all, that is what defence partners do!

https://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/an-l-t-russian-partnership-118091001347_1.html
L&T is doing really good. They've been delivering naval patrol vessels like clockwork lately.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top