Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

Adioz

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I don't think IN is going to have anti sub missiles, kamortas don't have missiles and the rest of the ships have just 8 to 16 loadouts. Just playing enough for anti ship and anti Karachi ops:p

Navy might just be happy to first arm all ships with proper tower array sonars and and indigenous torpedoes. Long way to Go before anti sub missiles
That was what I was thinking as well, maybe the Navy did not install Brahmos VLS on Kamorta 'cause they want to install Anti-submarine missile launchers? But then again, there seems to be no movement towards this direction.

With just 5km range it's like the last option for the ship unlike Missile based option. Further any submarine picked up by P 8i or ASW helo and info shared with a ship can help ship to engage the sub even before the sub can detect or engage ship. So those missile based anti sub munitions are pretty good additions
Indeed. In fact I think RBU-6000 are more of a defensive weapon that can take down enemy torpedoes before they hit the ship.
 

Tanmay

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I guess you are talking about the 90R rocket? That deal was signed in ~2001. Still not in the same class as an anti-submarine missile.

RBU-6000 has a range of what? 4 km? CY-5 and its western counterparts are in the ~30 km class. The warhead of RBU-6000 is also not in the same class. In fact, Type-054A have an RBU-6000 equivalent over and above the CY-5.


Compared to the Talwar class:-
  • Type-054A's SAM is better (has 50 km range)
  • Their AshMs are inferior.
  • Their ASW capability is better.
Btw I feel talwars might be used against Pakis. The shivaliks are for one's to face China. Usually WNC bases talwars and Delhi in Mumbai .
 

undeadmyrmidon

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I guess you are talking about the 90R rocket? That deal was signed in ~2001. Still not in the same class as an anti-submarine missile.

RBU-6000 has a range of what? 4 km? CY-5 and its western counterparts are in the ~30 km class. The warhead of RBU-6000 is also not in the same class. In fact, Type-054A have an RBU-6000 equivalent over and above the CY-5.


Compared to the Talwar class:-
  • Type-054A's SAM is better (has 50 km range)
  • Their AshMs are inferior.
  • Their ASW capability is better.
They have the same missile as ours Shtil 1 = HQ 16 = 50 Km
Their ASROC is same as ours
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CY-1#Yu-8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APR-3E_torpedo

Their Type 87 240mm anti-submarine rocket launcher (36 rockets carried) is inferior to the RBU 6000. Brush up that info.
 

undeadmyrmidon

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With just 5km range it's like the last option for the ship unlike Missile based option. Further any submarine picked up by P 8i or ASW helo and info shared with a ship can help ship to engage the sub even before the sub can detect or engage ship. So those missile based anti sub munitions are pretty good additions
You can use them as torpedo shields underwater and anti saboteur device.
 

Tanmay

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That was what I was thinking as well, maybe the Navy did not install Brahmos VLS on Kamorta 'cause they want to install Anti-submarine missile launchers? But then again, there seems to be no movement towards this direction.


Indeed. In fact I think RBU-6000 are more of a defensive weapon that can take down enemy torpedoes before they hit the ship.
Well navies across ghetto world have left ships modular enough to be armed with missiles later on due to lack of funds.
But considering the usual lack of foresight in our country I would be delighted to see the Kamortas or Kolkata having extra space/ design to accommodate future changes like extra silos. What I read previously was that delay in third and fourth kamortas was because the first and second all metal kamortas were a bit unstable so the the navy changed to composite. Hence for delay. Installing a new missile system with no free building space in our shipyards for new ships . Gonna take a lot of time mate
 

Adioz

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They have the same missile as ours Shtil 1 = HQ 16 = 50 Km
Their ASROC is same as ours
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CY-1#Yu-8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APR-3E_torpedo

Their Type 87 240mm anti-submarine rocket launcher (36 rockets carried) is inferior to the RBU 6000. Brush up that info.
Bhaiya ji where is our ASROC? APR-3E is Russian. Which Indian ship deploys it like the Yu-8 and CY-5?
Shtil-1 has range of 32 km. Source: here
HQ-16 is improved version of Shtil-1 with 50 km range.

Don't know about RBU-6000 vs Type 87
 

Tanmay

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You can use them as torpedo shields underwater and anti saboteur device.
Already the navy uses Mareech ATDS. And there are many smarter torpedo killing systems across ghetto world. But rbu can be used just that we don't know their usefulness against modern torpedoes
 

Adioz

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Well navies across ghetto world have left ships modular enough to be armed with missiles later on due to lack of funds.
But considering the usual lack of foresight in our country I would be delighted to see the Kamortas or Kolkata having extra space/ design to accommodate future changes like extra silos. What I read previously was that delay in third and fourth kamortas was because the first and second all metal kamortas were a bit unstable so the the navy changed to composite. Hence for delay. Installing a new missile system with no free building space in our shipyards for new ships . Gonna take a lot of time mate
What delay? Kiltan and Kavaratti were laid down right after Kamorta and Kadmatt were launched. And Kiltan and Kavaratti were built faster than the first two.

Also, Kamorta class does have space for adding SAM systems in a later refit.
 

aditya10r

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Suno suno suno DFI walon.

@Adioz @binayak95 @Bhumihar @Vinod DX9 all....

Answering your questions.

Answering your questions @Adioz .

1. Yes our Navy destroyer functions in squadron format of 2 similar destroyers.

2.6 is the number as of 2016,this number will only increase once all the Kamorta class are in service.

(In his last conversation he was quite displeased with Kamorta but after having word with some acting staff and officers he is assured that the size of the Corvettes is justified as navy will in future once budget allows will add more weapons of different category)

(The number of P-8i in our inventory could be more than 2 dozen,navy is just too happy with this system,no Chinese subs go undetected thanks to their noise and no matter how slow they move,they get painted)

3.Navy always wanted such systems for its capital warships and for its CBG.For future destroyer plans it's on the cards as well.They will only press forward once DRDO comes up with something solid,as of now it's a dream with a design but nothing solid.

4.No,CIWS plus Barak combo is a deadly combo, almost impregnable.

5.No,as of now we only want a landing helicopter dock.But navy will add more LCU.

(If Juan Carlos is selected for which navy is pressing hard for then we may get so see 10-12 f-35s for each of them,navy wants a strong fleet of mini CBG's)

6.Yes,but he is not sure which help exactly.

It will only depend on what helicopter is selected for MRSV tender program.

7.Navy at RIMPAC was pleased with v-22,thanks to its high payload and range but cost of purchase, operation and extremely difficult maintenance is a big big big hurdle which navy doesn't see herself overcoming.

8.He is not exactly sure,he has saved these images and have shared with his colleagues and will get back to it shortly,he remembers that DRDO had come up with a aip design but navy wanted some changes made to it and hence they were back at the drawing board.Since 2014 he has not heard much on this.

9.Theatre command is a very complex thing as our border with every neighbour carriers just too much,he can't comment on this.He will get back to this one too.

10.The day air force gives up its ego,the day they will move forward towards having a dedicated CDS command.

11.Yup navy wishes to acquire more data to keep a check on china and other rising powers in the region,but currently we have enough resources.

12.Navy has a dedicated team to keep its network and communication systems from any sort of tap and leaks.Our data links are also very good,so far too good.

13.The mig-29k will remain Navy's primary offensive fighter aircraft for atleast 10 more years:)doh:),Hence navy will integrate all possible weapons on it.

MIG-29k in navy is some sort of a love hate relationship,Navy loves it for its kinematic performance and finds it okay for carrier ops but thanks to our friends in Russia,it's difficult to have more than 20 of them available at a time.

14.No, currently only IN after USN is a dominant power in IOR,plus IOR is vast enough that it's operations are not hampered by anything at anytime.But rise of powers like BD is a matter of concern.

15.Once we impose a blockade on pakistan,the chinese will have no option other than to see his whore being banged and spanked India,there is no escaping.PN cannot last more than 48 hours.Their is no chance.

Now IOR has 9 checkpoints and most of them are within our reach,china has only 4 ways which it can use.

Straight of Malacca being the prime,if they wish to do any misadventure,their subs and warships will be at the mercy of P-8i and su-30mki armed with brahmos plus kora class.

The, Chinese, even in their wettest of dreams cant do any sort of misadventure in IOR right now,10-15 years down the line maybe they will be in a comfortable position but result would most likely be the same.

Of all the three arms of armed forces,only Navy is building up strength,rest are just retaining their strength.

16.Such a system is definite on next gen destroyer.

Now @Bhumihar .

Most of the design is done,some work is left on elevators and hangar area.

Almost done he would say.

@binayak95 your turn.

It's certainly a very intensive task,even he recalls he had to visit shit load of countries in IOR a year,he counted him visiting 3 countries in 1 year.Thanks to berthing rights and good relationship with many countries is IOR,things are good.

2.The idea is too cheesy to be true.

First off,data transfer during exercise with Japan and USN is always a big fuss thanks to different data links and network systems.

Now because of this operation becomes difficult,Japs and Aussies communicate with amreekis in the water as they have similar data links and network systems.

The quad at max will be a framework and an annual dialogue at max,don't expect much.

We are on our own.

The navy has come up with two design philosophies.

Evolutionary (8000-9000 tonne class)
And Revolutionary (11000-12000 tonne class)

Certainly the revolutionary ones will cost a lot,above 3 billion usd for sure.

Heck even the Vishakhapatnam class ones cost north of 1 billion USD.

The evolutionary ones will cost 2 billion USD as they will incorporate a lot of new technologies like rail guns,more vls and certainly UVLS, electric propulsion.

Navy is moving from sea denial to sea control.

Haaye re 30 min lag gaye ye answer likhne me.
 

binayak95

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Suno suno suno DFI walon.

@Adioz @binayak95 @Bhumihar @Vinod DX9 all....

Answering your questions.

Answering your questions @Adioz .

1. Yes our Navy destroyer functions in squadron format of 2 similar destroyers.

2.6 is the number as of 2016,this number will only increase once all the Kamorta class are in service.

(In his last conversation he was quite displeased with Kamorta but after having word with some acting staff and officers he is assured that the size of the Corvettes is justified as navy will in future once budget allows will add more weapons of different category)

(The number of P-8i in our inventory could be more than 2 dozen,navy is just too happy with this system,no Chinese subs go undetected thanks to their noise and no matter how slow they move,they get painted)

3.Navy always wanted such systems for its capital warships and for its CBG.For future destroyer plans it's on the cards as well.They will only press forward once DRDO comes up with something solid,as of now it's a dream with a design but nothing solid.

4.No,CIWS plus Barak combo is a deadly combo, almost impregnable.

5.No,as of now we only want a landing helicopter dock.But navy will add more LCU.

(If Juan Carlos is selected for which navy is pressing hard for then we may get so see 10-12 f-35s for each of them,navy wants a strong fleet of mini CBG's)

6.Yes,but he is not sure which help exactly.

It will only depend on what helicopter is selected for MRSV tender program.

7.Navy at RIMPAC was pleased with v-22,thanks to its high payload and range but cost of purchase, operation and extremely difficult maintenance is a big big big hurdle which navy doesn't see herself overcoming.

8.He is not exactly sure,he has saved these images and have shared with his colleagues and will get back to it shortly,he remembers that DRDO had come up with a aip design but navy wanted some changes made to it and hence they were back at the drawing board.Since 2014 he has not heard much on this.

9.Theatre command is a very complex thing as our border with every neighbour carriers just too much,he can't comment on this.He will get back to this one too.

10.The day air force gives up its ego,the day they will move forward towards having a dedicated CDS command.

11.Yup navy wishes to acquire more data to keep a check on china and other rising powers in the region,but currently we have enough resources.

12.Navy has a dedicated team to keep its network and communication systems from any sort of tap and leaks.Our data links are also very good,so far too good.

13.The mig-29k will remain Navy's primary offensive fighter aircraft for atleast 10 more years:)doh:),Hence navy will integrate all possible weapons on it.

MIG-29k in navy is some sort of a love hate relationship,Navy loves it for its kinematic performance and finds it okay for carrier ops but thanks to our friends in Russia,it's difficult to have more than 20 of them available at a time.

14.No, currently only IN after USN is a dominant power in IOR,plus IOR is vast enough that it's operations are not hampered by anything at anytime.But rise of powers like BD is a matter of concern.

15.Once we impose a blockade on pakistan,the chinese will have no option other than to see his whore being banged and spanked India,there is no escaping.PN cannot last more than 48 hours.Their is no chance.

Now IOR has 9 checkpoints and most of them are within our reach,china has only 4 ways which it can use.

Straight of Malacca being the prime,if they wish to do any misadventure,their subs and warships will be at the mercy of P-8i and su-30mki armed with brahmos plus kora class.

The, Chinese, even in their wettest of dreams cant do any sort of misadventure in IOR right now,10-15 years down the line maybe they will be in a comfortable position but result would most likely be the same.

Of all the three arms of armed forces,only Navy is building up strength,rest are just retaining their strength.

16.Such a system is definite on next gen destroyer.

Now @Bhumihar .

Most of the design is done,some work is left on elevators and hangar area.

Almost done he would say.

@binayak95 your turn.

It's certainly a very intensive task,even he recalls he had to visit shit load of countries in IOR a year,he counted him visiting 3 countries in 1 year.Thanks to berthing rights and good relationship with many countries is IOR,things are good.

2.The idea is too cheesy to be true.

First off,data transfer during exercise with Japan and USN is always a big fuss thanks to different data links and network systems.

Now because of this operation becomes difficult,Japs and Aussies communicate with amreekis in the water as they have similar data links and network systems.

The quad at max will be a framework and an annual dialogue at max,don't expect much.

We are on our own.

The navy has come up with two design philosophies.

Evolutionary (8000-9000 tonne class)
And Revolutionary (11000-12000 tonne class)

Certainly the revolutionary ones will cost a lot,above 3 billion usd for sure.

Heck even the Vishakhapatnam class ones cost north of 1 billion USD.

The evolutionary ones will cost 2 billion USD as they will incorporate a lot of new technologies like rail guns,more vls and certainly UVLS, electric propulsion.

Bhai haath dukh rahe honge; garam paani me dubao!!!

Thanks a tonne though. A few follow up questions:

1. So the recent mil ex to demonstrate RM the prowess and the last Malabar seems to have showcased the MiG29Ks improved serviceability?

2. Good to know about the operational turn around details. Does Commodore sir know about any instances of LEMOA being put into effect recently? Apart from the services provided to our Task Force that went for INDRA.

3. No chance of CISMOA and BECA being signed then. Good!! I don't want them either.

4. What does Cmde sir think of Chinese N-subs? Would he rate them alongside old Charlie class SSNs ?
 

aditya10r

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Bhai haath dukh rahe honge; garam paani me dubao!!!

Thanks a tonne though. A few follow up questions:

1. So the recent mil ex to demonstrate RM the prowess and the last Malabar seems to have showcased the MiG29Ks improved serviceability?

2. Good to know about the operational turn around details. Does Commodore sir know about any instances of LEMOA being put into effect recently? Apart from the services provided to our Task Force that went for INDRA.

3. No chance of CISMOA and BECA being signed then. Good!! I don't want them either.

4. What does Cmde sir think of Chinese N-subs? Would he rate them alongside old Charlie class SSNs ?
1.Yup recently navy has started stocking spares and parts.

They will look for 200 million USD worth of funds this year to create a hub for spares.

2.No instance of Indian Navy using any of USN base.

4.The akulas we operate have some mods running up that make them pretty silent,not as silent as USN ships but very silent.

Our akulas are comparable to their Shang class submarine.

But thanks to P-8i,they cannot so much.

They don't go undetected.
 

Adioz

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Haaye re 30 min lag gaye ye answer likhne me.
Bhai sabse zyada toh mere questions the, 20 min lag gaye honge just to answer my questions. But thanks a million. Its good to know the kind of systems the navy is considering for its future destroyers. I hope DRDO all the very best for UVLS program. The future of our maritime security depends on this.

The thing about Juan Carlos fielding F-53B is a bit surprising. I was against this idea since it would mean compromising on the main mission of amphibious ops. Guess the Navy might have some niche role for it....

>24 P-8I :santa::santa::santa::santa::santa::santa:
^^^PLAN + PN submarines can suck my D.
Maybe we should think about arming them with something indigenous?

The biggest relief comes from knowing that the IN does not plan on CISMOA and BECA. I have been extremely worried thinking that after LEMOA, GoI was just waiting for US to allow sales of more top notch tech before the agreed to sign CISMOA. Its good that we are not outsourcing our security.:india2:


About the heavy helicopter for the LHD, I don't think we should buy from abroad. In fact, I think, we should somehow rope the IAF in such a project. IMRH is in the making. We can simply make a three-engine version of IMRH to fulfill this role. It will not be in the same class as CH-53E, but it will have MTOW of maybe 22 tons (same as Chinook). If the IAF gives such a requirement, we can pursue such a project. For the navy alone, the numbers are going to be too low to justify a new project, and we might end up buying American again. That is unless the Navy explicitly wants a 33-ton class helo as its heavy lifter. Then there is no choice left but to buy American.
 

undeadmyrmidon

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Already the navy uses Mareech ATDS. And there are many smarter torpedo killing systems across ghetto world. But rbu can be used just that we don't know their usefulness against modern torpedoes
Its a hardkill measure..................
 

undeadmyrmidon

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Bhaiya ji where is our ASROC? APR-3E is Russian. Which Indian ship deploys it like the Yu-8 and CY-5?
Shtil-1 has range of 32 km. Source: here
HQ-16 is improved version of Shtil-1 with 50 km range.

Don't know about RBU-6000 vs Type 87
Range of Yu 8 is 3 km ish which puts it right with our RPK 8s. Chinks can carry only 8 in vls whereas we can have 96 reloads.

Shtil 1 can hit 50 kms too. Must be the M version we use since batch II Krivaks.

http://www.arms-expo.ru/news/archiv...4-godu23-09-2013-14-37-00/?sphrase_id=5346551
 

aditya10r

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This link argues otherwise. A couple of commanders told me the same as well....
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...els-indian-navy-ship-in-sea-of-japan-4932082/

Worrying that Chinese SSNs are that good to be honest!!!!
He was talking about using bases.
He was aware of USN tanker refueling our ships.

__________________________________________

The main reason we may not be able to exploit lemoa to its limits because we have berthing rights in almost entire IOR and most of our ops are limited to this region only.
 

Adioz

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Range of Yu 8 is 3 km ish which puts it right with our RPK 8s. Chinks can carry only 8 in vls whereas we can have 96 reloads.

Shtil 1 can hit 50 kms too. Must be the M version we use since batch II Krivaks.

http://www.arms-expo.ru/news/archiv...4-godu23-09-2013-14-37-00/?sphrase_id=5346551
I don't know about Shtil-1. Hope you are right, but AFAIK, we signed a deal in 2000-01 for the 9M317ME missiles, and those had a range of 35 km. If we have upgraded, its good.

Now, regarding Yu-8: Its the effective range of the torpedo that is 3 km in the water. The torpedo itself can be fired on top of a missile from the VLS upto a range of ~30 km.
Compare that to RPK 8 (RBU-6000 with 90R rocket) that has a smaller warhead with an effective range of 130 m in the water. The warhead is fired on top of a rocket that has a range of ~4 km.
Yu-8 is a different kind of a system. Chinese system comparable to the RPK 8 is Type-87 rocket launcher that carries 36 rockets. (Our RBU-6000 carries 96 reloads, then that is good for us).

So in conclusion, we do not have a system comparable to Yu-8 in service. Hope that cleared your confusion.
 

nongaddarliberal

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He was talking about using bases.
He was aware of USN tanker refueling our ships.

__________________________________________

The main reason we may not be able to exploit lemoa to its limits because we have berthing rights in almost entire IOR and most of our ops are limited to this region only.
If you can ask him any further questions, here's mine:

Does the Indian navy plan on becoming a true blue water navy, as in operating to a smaller degree in all the oceans of the world? Are there any plans on operating in the Pacific or even south Atlantic in the future?
 

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