Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Kshithij]

Why not make Indian ships and save forex while generating huge employment?

 

[binayak95]

Hope these are cheap. The talwars are a bit oldies. Lack of flushed deck and integrated masts. Lot of clutter so less stealthy. The
Gorshkov class are a lot better (16 missiles). Good for increase in numbers and for anti paki ops

But same money could have been spent in extra improved shivaliks or upgunned kamortas with missiles. No need for extending Russian classe ships to 10 nos when indian ship classes end after jusy 3 nos. And then taking a decade to implement changes to the succeeding class and do steel cutting for next five years We need to go full chini style mass production of same class of ships rather then piecemeal orders of Indian class chips and favouring Russians. Atleast 8 to 10 ships of the same class in rapid time. ( Compared to chini 30 to 40 ships)

Agreed. Except a tiny problem. jaga nahi hai BOSS!! All available berths in every major Defence Shipyard is already booked !

 

[Tanmay]

Agreed. Except a tiny problem. jaga nahi hai BOSS!! All available berths in every major Defence Shipyard is already booked !

Sirji, GSL is building two out of 4 ships. Jagah toh hai bas indian mask ke liye nai. L&T kattupalli shipyard is also there now. But they are being given smaller ship orders.
We need to take some corrective steps to speed up things. Especially in south
Where communist/ leftist unions go on strike every week. Atleast when I was in Kerala( kazakuttam/ karyavattam) for my training every week we had a gap because of strikes entire city and offices closed down.

 

[binayak95]

Sirji, GSL is building two out of 4 ships. Jagah toh hai bas indian mask ke liye nai. L&T kattupalli shipyard is also there now. But they are being given smaller ship orders.
We need to take some corrective steps to speed up things. Especially in south
Where communist/ leftist unions go on strike every week. Atleast when I was in Kerala( kazakuttam/ karyavattam) for my training every week we had a gap because of strikes entire city and offices closed down.

GSL builds LSTs and OPVs, they don't have the dry docks for frigates/destroyers.
GRSE just completed a thorough modernisation program to build frigates. And have got the P-17A ships to build.

L&T and Pipavav both have massive infra but zilch experience. Which is why two of these Kricak FFGs will be built in 1 of these pvt shipyards.

The only shipyard that has the capacity to build FFGs and DDGs in good numbers is Mazgaon and they're busy building P-15B and P-17A

 

[Craigs]

Agreed. Except a tiny problem. jaga nahi hai BOSS!! All available berths in every major Defence Shipyard is already booked !

5 saal ka kaam ko 10 saal lagega to kabhi jagah nahin banega boss.

 

[Tanmay]

5 saal ka kaam ko 10 saal lagega to kabhi jagah nahin banega boss.

Eggactly !! 5 years is still too long western and Chinese churn out in around 3 years max . Heck they started their aircraft carrier probably after us and still end up with a complete new carrier and rebuilt a rusting ship into a newlike ship in record timelines

 

[binayak95]

Eggactly !! 5 years is still too long western and Chinese churn out in around 3 years max . Heck they started their aircraft carrier probably after us and still end up with a complete new carrier and rebuilt a rusting ship into a newlike ship in record timelines

And how many ships have you designed and built?

MDL, GSL and GRSE built world class ships at prices that are atleast a third of the cost of ships with inferior features built in the West.

And which ship has taken ten years to build? the Kolkata class ships were completed in 7 years. Trials and problems in trials took further time.

The new Vishakapatnam class DDGs started construction in 2013, and will be commissioned this year. 4 years from start to finish! Try and match that. Especially given propulsion package still comes from Ukraine.

 

[Steven Rogers]

And how many ships have you designed and built?

MDL, GSL and GRSE built world class ships at prices that are atleast a third of the cost of ships with inferior features built in the West.

And which ship has taken ten years to build? the Kolkata class ships were completed in 7 years. Trials and problems in trials took further time.

The new Vishakapatnam class DDGs started construction in 2013, and will be commissioned this year. 4 years from start to finish! Try and match that. Especially given propulsion package still comes from Ukraine.

And I bet he don't know the capabilities of Project 15A and 15B and will claim TYPE52D, TYPE52C better.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Tanmay]

And how many ships have you designed and built?

MDL, GSL and GRSE built world class ships at prices that are atleast a third of the cost of ships with inferior features built in the West.

And which ship has taken ten years to build? the Kolkata class ships were completed in 7 years. Trials and problems in trials took further time.

The new Vishakapatnam class DDGs started construction in 2013, and will be commissioned this year. 4 years from start to finish! Try and match that. Especially given propulsion package still comes from Ukraine.

Costs will always be different if you pay for Western built ships. Can't compare Indian labor and material costs with amriki or European ones. It's like a student going for MS In America who buys everything using parents INR to dollar which is costly. Then when they earn in dollars the same things are cheaper.

Regarding the capabilities. Yes my friend. MF Star , Barak 8 , better ASW capabilities and 2 helos give an edge but not when you are pitting 8 P 15A /B vs 25 Type 52 in near future or Type 55 with no Indian equivalent. Credit to Chinese to develop/ steal almost all major systems from radar to missiles to protection leaving aside engine . Heavily armed plus greater numbers vs slight technical edge but lower nos will be like German tiger vs T 34 Though the Chinese have to face amrika and Japan and not all assets targeted towards us.

 

[aditya10r]

Binayak Saheb.

@binayak95

Commodore uncle is coming again,any questions queries.

This time he is coming with updated info,he met some working staff and some of his friends who retired last year.

 

[Kranthi]

And how many ships have you designed and built?

MDL, GSL and GRSE built world class ships at prices that are atleast a third of the cost of ships with inferior features built in the West.

And which ship has taken ten years to build? the Kolkata class ships were completed in 7 years. Trials and problems in trials took further time.

The new Vishakapatnam class DDGs started construction in 2013, and will be commissioned this year. 4 years from start to finish! Try and match that. Especially given propulsion package still comes from Ukraine.

Are you sure we are commissioning the first ship this year ? Wasn't there a news recently that procurement of some equipment is going to delay the commissioning by atleast 3 years ?? I would be very happy if there is no such issue..

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[binayak95]

Costs will always be different if you pay for Western built ships. Can't compare Indian labor and material costs with amriki or European ones. It's like a student going for MS In America who buys everything using parents INR to dollar which is costly. Then when they earn in dollars the same things are cheaper.

Regarding the capabilities. Yes my friend. MF Star , Barak 8 , better ASW capabilities and 2 helos give an edge but not when you are pitting 8 P 15A /B vs 25 Type 52 in near future or Type 55 with no Indian equivalent. Credit to Chinese to develop/ steal almost all major systems from radar to missiles to protection leaving aside engine . Heavily armed plus greater numbers vs slight technical edge but lower nos will be like German tiger vs T 34 Though the Chinese have to face amrika and Japan and not all assets targeted towards us.

You didn't answer my question. You avoided my question. You argued about building more Indian ships at Indian yards. I set out to show how there's no space available to do the same. You countered with the time argument. I counter that given from where we have come from, and with the result being what it is (state of the art warships) - we are doing very well.

If you have no counter to these, concede the point.

Your argument of Tigers and T-34s holds no ground.

In the battle of Kursk, Russians faced Tigers and Panthers and even Ferdinand Tank Destroyers, and countered them with T-34-85s.
T-34s with 85mm main gun which were more than capable of defeating the armor of the Tiger.

My bad, in addition to the T-34-85s, the Russians had KV-85s and IS-1s.. Tanks which were superior in almost all key aspects to their German equivalents.

 

[binayak95]

Binayak Saheb.

@binayak95

Commodore uncle is coming again,any questions queries.

This time he is coming with updated info,he met some working staff and some of his friends who retired last year.

Thanks bro. Pester him about the Rubis nuke subs. And ask him where the IN is leaning towards: the F-18ASH or the Rafale M. My seniors are divided.
Also ask him about The Project 18 DDG. Nirbhay/DEW?

 

[binayak95]

Are you sure we are commissioning the first ship this year ? Wasn't there a news recently that procurement of some equipment is going to delay the commissioning by atleast 3 years ?? I would be very happy if there is no such issue..

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

I've heard that there was a delay in the propulsion package from Ukraine. But I believe that has been resolved. The ship is undergoing weapon and sensor integration.

 

[Tanmay]

You didn't answer my question. You avoided my question. You argued about building more Indian ships at Indian yards. I set out to show how there's no space available to do the same. You countered with the time argument. I counter that given from where we have come from, and with the result being what it is (state of the art warships) - we are doing very well.

If you have no counter to these, concede the point.

Your argument of Tigers and T-34s holds no ground.

In the battle of Kursk, Russians faced Tigers and Panthers and even Ferdinand Tank Destroyers, and countered them with T-34-85s.
T-34s with 85mm main gun which were more than capable of defeating the armor of the Tiger.

My bad, in addition to the T-34-85s, the Russians had KV-85s and IS-1s.. Tanks which were superior in almost all key aspects to their German equivalents.

Yup probably we need more capacity building in ports. But still L&T could be utilised. After delivering 2000T OPVs and the FDN2 they have the required skills.

So just summing up.
GRSE: 1 Kamorta (building )+ 4 P-17A (Planned )+8 ASW ( planned )
GSL : 12 MCWV (Stuck)+ 2 Talwars (Planned )
CSL :. 8 ASW, (Planned )
MDL : 4 P-15B (Building) + 3 P-17A
Pipavav :5 P-21 OPV

And probably a few OPV and fast attack crafts here and there.

 

[Prashant12]

HSL may refit Russian-made submarine


Visakhapatnam: The Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) is in talks with a Russian shipbuilding firm for executing Medium Refit and Life Certification (MRLC) of a Russian EKM Class submarine now with the Indian Navy that could be worth about Rs 1,000 crore.
If HSL manages to bag the contract, the task of refitting the Russian submarine will begin this year.

Once the refit is completed in three years time, it will extend the life of the 25-year-old submarine by about 10 years. A seven member delegation from Joint Stock Company United Shipbuilding Corporation, Moscow headed by Alexey V Dikiy, Director, Military and Technical Corporation, was in Vizag from January 10-12 and held extensive discussions on the submarine refit modalities.

According to HSL officials, the Indian Navy had earlier decided to extend the life period of four Russian built EKM class submarines.


While the work on two of them is going on in Russia, the two other were decided to be refitted in India with Russian support.

The HSL based here in Vizag and the Larsen and Toubro shipyard near Chennai were marked as qualified to bid for this purpose.

Speaking to TOI over phone, Sarat Babu, Chairman and Managing Director, HSL said: "The delegation was here on our invitation and the deliberations were to arrive at a protocol to refit the submarine. The Russians were taken around the shipyard and they were extremely happy with our shipyard's infrastructure, our expertise and work-culture."

Babu says that the competitive bidding process could be held in March. "We will be together preparing a bid to be submitted to our Ministry of Defence. Since we have the experience of refitting submarines, we are confident of bagging the project which could be worth about Rs 1,000 crore." The Medium Refit and Life Certification (MRLC) of the fourth EKM Class submarine is slated a few years later. The HSL which is under the Ministry of Defence has recently been given a Rs 2,020 crore project to construct two Diving Support Vessels for the Indian Navy.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ssian-made-submarine/articleshow/62479567.cms

 

[Prashant12]

Indian Navy looking at more P-8I 'submarine killers': Admiral Lanba


NEW DELHI: The Indian Navy is considering the acquisition of more Boeing P-8I aircraft for surveillance and Anti-Submarine Warfare(ASW), according to Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba.

In an interview to the magazine 'India Strategic', Admiral Lanba said that air surveillance capability is an important subset of naval operations and that while the proposal was on the table, he could not disclose the required numbers.

His predecessors have spoken of a requirement of 30 Long-Range Maritime Reconnaissance (LRMR) aircraft, under which the navy has already inducted eight aircraft and placed an order for four more.

Because of the overall tardy process of routine modernisation of the armed forces over the last 30 years, the Indian Navy has not been able to renew its inventory of submarines but the acquisition of the P-8I (I stands for India) has given it a very strong offensive capability to detect and hunt hostile submarines.

In fact, in terms of contemporary weapon technologies, the P-8I, often referred to as the "submarine killer", is perhaps the most advanced system that any of the three Indian services have acquired in recent years. The aircraft was deployed in 2013 by the Indian Navy around the same time the US Navy did.

The Defence Ministry has officially stated that the P-8I is "capable of thrusting a punitive response and maintaining a watch over India's immediate and extended areas of interest".

Asked about the growing number of hostile submarines in the Indian Ocean, nearer home in fact, Admiral Lanba said: "As a professional military force, we constantly evaluate the maritime security environment in our areas of interest. We lay a lot of stress on Maritime Domain Awareness (MDA). Accordingly, we are fully seized of the presence and likely intentions of all extra-regional forces operating in the Indian Ocean. Our Navy is fully capable and ever ready to meet any challenges that may arise in the maritime domain."

Significantly, the agreement for the P-8Is was signed on January 1, 2009, within a couple of months of the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks which exposed the vulnerability of the country's maritime defences. The attack, in fact, triggered the government to clear quite a few proposals for the armed forces as well as to review what should be done to ensure security of Indian waters, particularly the coastal belts on the country's eastern and western seaboards.

The Navy is now the nodal agency for coordinating surveillance through satellites and aircraft and a network of police and small boats has also been integrated into the system.

The Navy and the Indian Coast Guard (ICG) also operate a number of HAL-made Dornier 228 aircraft, while some proposals for more LRMR and Medium-Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) have been on the table for the last few years.

Observed Admiral Lanba: "Every endeavour is being made to collectively ensure that our maritime security, of which coastal security is an important subset, is adequately strengthened."

"A number of measures have been taken since 26/11 to strengthen maritime, coastal and offshore security by the concerned agencies in the country. These measures broadly include increasing capacity and capabilities of maritime security forces, enhanced surveillance and domain awareness of the maritime zones, increased regulation of maritime activities, streamlining intelligence-sharing between different agencies and strengthening overall maritime governance. There have been significant improvements in the operational response to developing situations at and from the seas," he added.

At the national level, coordination of coastal security-related activities is being carried out by the National Committee for Strengthening Coastal and Maritime Security (NCSCMS).

The Navy had ordered eight P-8I aircraft in 2009 for $2.1 billion along with a training package. Weapons and torpedoes were extra as needed, and then, under the Options Clause, four more aircraft were ordered in August 2016.

The standard delivery schedule begins within three years of signing a contract and making the first payment. Boeing has said that it delivered the first lot of eight aircraft "on time, on cost" and helped set up their base at the INS Rajali Naval Air Station at Arakkonam in Tamil Nadu.

Boeing had been awarded a three-year contract in June last year for engineering and logistics support for the P-8I fleet. In January 2018, the Navy has been given approximately Rs 2,000 crore (almost $315 million) for a Training Solution along with a 10-year package for comprehensive maintenance service.

The training facility at INS Rajali will be the third of its kind after those in the US and Australia, and will train pilots, observers and ordnance and technical personnel. Spread over 60,000 sq ft, the facility would be completed by 2021.

A Training Simulator to be set up at the Naval Institute of Aeronautical Technology (NIAT), Kochi, for ab-initio training of the technical personnel is part of the package.

Pratyush Kumar, Boeing's India President and Vice President International, had observed after signing the three-year contract last year: "Our team remains focused on executing our commitments to customers on schedule and cost. With this contract, the Indian Navy can be assured of achieving exceptional operational capability and readiness of the P-8I fleet."

Boeing's earlier contract was due to expire in October 2017.

The Indian variant has certain Indian components, including communication software and IFF (Identify Friend or Foe), to align with Indian naval and Air Force aircraft and net-centric systems.

It has 360-degree radar view, thanks to Raytheon's AN/APY-40 forward looking radar's 240-degree coverage and the rest from Telefonics aft-looking radar.

Built on the Boeing 737 frame, the P8-I is capable of detecting and destroying hostile submarines deep under the water. It has 11 hard points for carrying Harpoon anti-shipping missiles and depth charges, and five stations in the weapons bay for Raytheon-supplied Mk-54 torpedoes. Two hard points upfront are for Search and Rescue equipment.

There are five operator stations, and windows for outside views. All the systems are integrated with the onboard Mission Computer and Display System for control and data distribution in high speeds with ultra-high resolution. The APY 10 radar is developed keeping in mind not just the land but waters of the vast oceans as well, be it day or night. It is capable of tracking even small vessels in littoral and high seas environments.

The Indian variant also has the Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) which measures minute variations and disturbances in the earth's magnetic field caused by the underwater movement of steel-encased submarines.

India has already acquired a number of Harpoon Block II missiles for use both by the Navy and IAF, which also conducts maritime patrols.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...illers-admiral-lanba/articleshow/62484276.cms

 

[AMCA]

Indian Navy looking at more P-8I 'submarine killers': Admiral Lanba


NEW DELHI: The Indian Navy is considering the acquisition of more Boeing P-8I aircraft for surveillance and Anti-Submarine Warfare(ASW), according to Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba.

In an interview to the magazine 'India Strategic', Admiral Lanba said that air surveillance capability is an important subset of naval operations and that while the proposal was on the table, he could not disclose the required numbers.

His predecessors have spoken of a requirement of 30 Long-Range Maritime Reconnaissance (LRMR) aircraft, under which the navy has already inducted eight aircraft and placed an order for four more.

Because of the overall tardy process of routine modernisation of the armed forces over the last 30 years, the Indian Navy has not been able to renew its inventory of submarines but the acquisition of the P-8I (I stands for India) has given it a very strong offensive capability to detect and hunt hostile submarines.

In fact, in terms of contemporary weapon technologies, the P-8I, often referred to as the "submarine killer", is perhaps the most advanced system that any of the three Indian services have acquired in recent years. The aircraft was deployed in 2013 by the Indian Navy around the same time the US Navy did.

The Defence Ministry has officially stated that the P-8I is "capable of thrusting a punitive response and maintaining a watch over India's immediate and extended areas of interest".

Asked about the growing number of hostile submarines in the Indian Ocean, nearer home in fact, Admiral Lanba said: "As a professional military force, we constantly evaluate the maritime security environment in our areas of interest. We lay a lot of stress on Maritime Domain Awareness (MDA). Accordingly, we are fully seized of the presence and likely intentions of all extra-regional forces operating in the Indian Ocean. Our Navy is fully capable and ever ready to meet any challenges that may arise in the maritime domain."

Significantly, the agreement for the P-8Is was signed on January 1, 2009, within a couple of months of the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks which exposed the vulnerability of the country's maritime defences. The attack, in fact, triggered the government to clear quite a few proposals for the armed forces as well as to review what should be done to ensure security of Indian waters, particularly the coastal belts on the country's eastern and western seaboards.

The Navy is now the nodal agency for coordinating surveillance through satellites and aircraft and a network of police and small boats has also been integrated into the system.

The Navy and the Indian Coast Guard (ICG) also operate a number of HAL-made Dornier 228 aircraft, while some proposals for more LRMR and Medium-Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) have been on the table for the last few years.

Observed Admiral Lanba: "Every endeavour is being made to collectively ensure that our maritime security, of which coastal security is an important subset, is adequately strengthened."

"A number of measures have been taken since 26/11 to strengthen maritime, coastal and offshore security by the concerned agencies in the country. These measures broadly include increasing capacity and capabilities of maritime security forces, enhanced surveillance and domain awareness of the maritime zones, increased regulation of maritime activities, streamlining intelligence-sharing between different agencies and strengthening overall maritime governance. There have been significant improvements in the operational response to developing situations at and from the seas," he added.

At the national level, coordination of coastal security-related activities is being carried out by the National Committee for Strengthening Coastal and Maritime Security (NCSCMS).

The Navy had ordered eight P-8I aircraft in 2009 for $2.1 billion along with a training package. Weapons and torpedoes were extra as needed, and then, under the Options Clause, four more aircraft were ordered in August 2016.

The standard delivery schedule begins within three years of signing a contract and making the first payment. Boeing has said that it delivered the first lot of eight aircraft "on time, on cost" and helped set up their base at the INS Rajali Naval Air Station at Arakkonam in Tamil Nadu.

Boeing had been awarded a three-year contract in June last year for engineering and logistics support for the P-8I fleet. In January 2018, the Navy has been given approximately Rs 2,000 crore (almost $315 million) for a Training Solution along with a 10-year package for comprehensive maintenance service.

The training facility at INS Rajali will be the third of its kind after those in the US and Australia, and will train pilots, observers and ordnance and technical personnel. Spread over 60,000 sq ft, the facility would be completed by 2021.

A Training Simulator to be set up at the Naval Institute of Aeronautical Technology (NIAT), Kochi, for ab-initio training of the technical personnel is part of the package.

Pratyush Kumar, Boeing's India President and Vice President International, had observed after signing the three-year contract last year: "Our team remains focused on executing our commitments to customers on schedule and cost. With this contract, the Indian Navy can be assured of achieving exceptional operational capability and readiness of the P-8I fleet."

Boeing's earlier contract was due to expire in October 2017.

The Indian variant has certain Indian components, including communication software and IFF (Identify Friend or Foe), to align with Indian naval and Air Force aircraft and net-centric systems.

It has 360-degree radar view, thanks to Raytheon's AN/APY-40 forward looking radar's 240-degree coverage and the rest from Telefonics aft-looking radar.

Built on the Boeing 737 frame, the P8-I is capable of detecting and destroying hostile submarines deep under the water. It has 11 hard points for carrying Harpoon anti-shipping missiles and depth charges, and five stations in the weapons bay for Raytheon-supplied Mk-54 torpedoes. Two hard points upfront are for Search and Rescue equipment.

There are five operator stations, and windows for outside views. All the systems are integrated with the onboard Mission Computer and Display System for control and data distribution in high speeds with ultra-high resolution. The APY 10 radar is developed keeping in mind not just the land but waters of the vast oceans as well, be it day or night. It is capable of tracking even small vessels in littoral and high seas environments.

The Indian variant also has the Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) which measures minute variations and disturbances in the earth's magnetic field caused by the underwater movement of steel-encased submarines.

India has already acquired a number of Harpoon Block II missiles for use both by the Navy and IAF, which also conducts maritime patrols.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...illers-admiral-lanba/articleshow/62484276.cms

30 P8Is??? But will the government give go ahead for this procurement?

 

[Prashant12]

30 P8Is??? But will the government give go ahead for this procurement?

Total requirement is 30 of which 8 already inducted and 4 on order taking current fleet to 12.

Another 18 needed which will be ordered in tranche.

 

[Tanmay]

30 P8Is??? But will the government give go ahead for this procurement?

With the Bears gone, and Il-38 in line after a few years(yea they have upgraded them with sea dragon ) makes sense to order a few now if the costs are comparable to the original P8 order rather than a few years down the line with inflation.
Money can be saved if the govts don't give freebies like cookers, TV sets, mixer grinders with photos of leaders after elections and the usual farm loan waiver year after year.
Better early than end like up like C-17 saga with no planes available. Would have been a great opportunity to have 18- 20 of then :/