Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[sthf]

You can do it if you don't plan on reloading. Storing and handling those large rockets would require large facilities and for stabilisation would be better mounted on a larger vessel. The pitch and roll of smaller vessels would lead to accuracy problems even with a gyro mount.

Makes sense however my idea was to implement a battery sized rocket unit without reloading on a LST type vessel.

 

[sthf]

@aditya10r Thanks mate and a happy new year to you and your family.

 

[binayak95]

The US is experimenting with it on amphibious assault vessels but that only works with GPS auto-correcting munitions carried by HIMARS.

North Korea tried it with BM-21 but it is really a joke.

If you are doing long range you really need guidance kits for it to make any sense otherwise just stick to rapid fire guns.

Actually, it has been done in the past. Very very effectively.

The USN and the RN modified LCTs to carry banks of MLRS as an effective fire support for amphibious ops and shore bombardment in WWII.
This was done both in the Pacific and European theatres. Most prominently the Guam campaign, D-Day and the Sicily landings.

The above pic is an LCT Mk3 which could carry 1044 RP-3 rockets!! They were to saturate beaches right before the arrival of troops and armour.

The LCTs could store upto 5000 rockets below decks (where tanks would be stored conventionally). The Range was upto 1500 metres.

Moreover, most of these were equipped with radar system type 970, to enable bombardment of targets which were not Line-Of-Sight or at night/bad weather.

 

[aditya10r]

I think you're confusing p-15a with p-17. P-17 is the shivalik class. Kolkata is p-15a.

Yeah my bad.

______________________________________


And conveyed your points about Kamorta class to him.

He is satisfied with the points.

Thank you ! On the LPD/LHD I had arguments with many forum members that a pocket carrier would be the best choice and Juan Carlos class fits the bill but I would rather like a mix of F35’s and NLCA. F35 can act as a force multiplier for NLCA.

NLCA is a total no go.

 

[Armand2REP]

Actually, it has been done in the past. Very very effectively.

The USN and the RN modified LCTs to carry banks of MLRS as an effective fire support for amphibious ops and shore bombardment in WWII.
This was done both in the Pacific and European theatres. Most prominently the Guam campaign, D-Day and the Sicily landings.

The above pic is an LCT Mk3 which could carry 1044 RP-3 rockets!! They were to saturate beaches right before the arrival of troops and armour.

The LCTs could store upto 5000 rockets below decks (where tanks would be stored conventionally). The Range was upto 1500 metres.

Moreover, most of these were equipped with radar system type 970, to enable bombardment of targets which were not Line-Of-Sight or at night/bad weather.

I was well aware of that but I didn't think going back 75 years in history was a feasible proposition to the problem. You can get a 76mm Oto Melara as a better option today as it can be fitted on something as small as sloops.

 

[binayak95]

I was well aware of that but I didn't think going back 75 years in history was a feasible proposition to the problem. You can get a 76mm Oto Melara as a better option today as it can be fitted on something as small as sloops.

Actually, shouldn't be too difficult to improvise a modern-day equivalent, with an LST (L) and something like the Pinaka. Jugaad, but effective fire support. And no Oto Melara 76mm or the 127 mm can match the sheer firepower of 100s of rockets screaming at an enemy-held beach.

 

[Kalki_2018]

Indian LST's already carry WM-18 rockets. For LPD's Pinaka can be added but the issue is always refilling the tubes after the salvo is fired. WM-18 rockets are manually loaded, can't do that with Pinaka.

 

[Armand2REP]

Actually, shouldn't be too difficult to improvise a modern-day equivalent, with an LST (L) and something like the Pinaka. Jugaad, but effective fire support. And no Oto Melara 76mm or the 127 mm can match the sheer firepower of 100s of rockets screaming at an enemy-held beach.

That is one shot and done. For supporting a beach landing you want sustained fires not to mention you can't target bunkers with unguided rockets rolling with the waves.

 

[pankaj nema]

Actually, shouldn't be too difficult to improvise a modern-day equivalent, with an LST (L) and something like the Pinaka. Jugaad, but effective fire support. And no Oto Melara 76mm or the 127 mm can match the sheer firepower of 100s of rockets screaming at an enemy-held beach.

Perhaps you have Not read this US navy test

MBRLs can be fired from Ships

Marines Fire HIMARS From Ship in Sea Control Experiment With Navy

https://news.usni.org/2017/10/24/marines-fire-himars-ship-sea-control-experiment-navy

 

[bhramos]

Perhaps you have Not read this US navy test

MBRLs can be fired from Ships

Marines Fire HIMARS From Ship in Sea Control Experiment With Navy

https://news.usni.org/2017/10/24/marines-fire-himars-ship-sea-control-experiment-navy

Chinese Fire Support Frigate (Rocket).

So they've done the common sense thing and simply taken an old frigate, added MLRS pods to it and re-designated it a fire support ship. The only real issue (because I think its a great idea) is re-arming it at sea. Against a proper target it could expend its "ready to fire" load in a few minutes.

 

[bhramos]

Perhaps you have Not read this US navy test

MBRLs can be fired from Ships

Marines Fire HIMARS From Ship in Sea Control Experiment With Navy

https://news.usni.org/2017/10/24/marines-fire-himars-ship-sea-control-experiment-navy

Russian Navy Buyan Corvette,

Ship's 122-millimeter volley fire system A-215 Grad-M

 

[binayak95]

Indian LST's already carry WM-18 rockets. For LPD's Pinaka can be added but the issue is always refilling the tubes after the salvo is fired. WM-18 rockets are manually loaded, can't do that with Pinaka.

Thank you. I had forgotten about the L&T built WM-18 rockets.

WM-18

Here is the Airavat. Note the blast shields near the bow with the WM-18 on both port and starboard sides.

 

[bhramos]

Thank you. I had forgotten about the L&T built WM-18 rockets.

WM-18

Here is the Airavat. Note the blast shields near the bow with the WM-18 on both port and starboard sides.View attachment 22284

India also exported these WM-18 Rocket launchers to Vietnam

 

[aditya10r]

@binayak95

What do you think about possessing some tu-160 black swans or b-1b lancer sort of bombers in possession of air force/navy???

Soviets had fitted tu-22m3 with AShM missiles as well to target NATO ships.

 

[binayak95]

@binayak95

What do you think about possessing some tu-160 black swans or b-1b lancer sort of bombers in possession of air force/navy???

Soviets had fitted tu-22m3 with AShM missiles as well to target NATO ships.

Not necessary, bro.

We do not require long-range bombers to carry stand off missiles to engage warships.

Whom do we hit? Australia? Japan?

Our future wars will be with Pakistan and China. To deal with them, a BLackjack or a Lancer will be overkill. I'd rather spend resources on subs/fighters.

And now, with SU-30MKIs with Brahmos-A, Rafales with SCALP, and our own destroyers and frigates, we don't actually need any of these.

 

[aditya10r]

Not necessary, bro.

We do not require long-range bombers to carry stand off missiles to engage warships.

Whom do we hit? Australia? Japan?

Our future wars will be with Pakistan and China. To deal with them, a BLackjack or a Lancer will be overkill. I'd rather spend resources on subs/fighters.

And now, with SU-30MKIs with Brahmos-A, Rafales with SCALP, and our own destroyers and frigates, we don't actually need any of these.

Thanks.

I was talking to him and asked him,is it possible to see Chinese aircraft carrier strike group in IOR??

He think it's a possibility but it won't be a reality in 10 years,but once they possess some 6-8 aircraft carriers,they will be in a very comfortable position to deploy atleast 1 CBG in IOR.

He said back in 2009 navy did some evaluation and imagines what would be the situation of IOR by 2025.Some conclusions were that Somalia will remain like this,refugee crisis might hit this place as well,bay of Bengal region will become heavily contested,and some other things.
Commodore Saheb also said the lack of cooperation and coordination with air force was a problem that navy faced but back then we did not have any good network system,so that might have improved now.
Also he thinks now we cannot harrass Chinese shipping lanes in SCS and other areas in close proximity of china.

So he settled down what he thinks to be the perfect doctrine of navy till 2027(scenarios will change but most probably things will remain very much same)

As of now our naval budget is pretty low so we better start acquiring ships through indian shipyards to keep delays and costs low.We need capital warships and Corvettes in some really good numbers-our destroyer program is on right track and so is frigate, addition of some good well designed and we'll equipped Corvettes will add strength to navy,no need to waste resources on useless heavy 11000+ tonne cruisers.Arm our existing fleet with good number of missiles once Nirbhay program achieves success,Lack of land attack capability is a big big draw back.Our sensors and radar systems are already top notch best in class,it's on right track.Then we need lots of good anti submarine warfare choppers,navy should not wait a day and purchase such choppers off the shelf from foreign vendors.Addition of SOSUS sort of system will act as an actual force multiplier,if budget allows then it won't be a bad idea to develop it.Try to get those refurbished SSN from ruskies ASAP,and put our SSN program on afterburner.We need atleast 12 such SSN by 2030(he sees with current 6 indigenous SSN and 3 SSN happening at the time).Fast tracking our SSK program and upgrade of our existing SSK should be top priority,we need subs in numbers.Also kick those useless MiG off Vikramaditya.INS Vikrant is taking its time,maybe navy wants to delay the induction to keep Operation and procurement costs low.Fast forward our MRSV program,add more LCU,Sri Lanka and Maldives are in very close proximity,we should not waste more time.We should have a few overseas bases for three reasons-showcase our political might,navy will get what it is like to be a blue water navy,will send a very clear message to Chinese sitting in Beijing.

There are few more points that I will post later.

 

[binayak95]

Thanks.

I was talking to him and asked him,is it possible to see Chinese aircraft carrier strike group in IOR??

He think it's a possibility but it won't be a reality in 10 years,but once they possess some 6-8 aircraft carriers,they will be in a very comfortable position to deploy atleast 1 CBG in IOR.

He said back in 2009 navy did some evaluation and imagines what would be the situation of IOR by 2025.Some conclusions were that Somalia will remain like this,refugee crisis might hit this place as well,bay of Bengal region will become heavily contested,and some other things.
Commodore Saheb also said the lack of cooperation and coordination with air force was a problem that navy faced but back then we did not have any good network system,so that might have improved now.
Also he thinks now we cannot harrass Chinese shipping lanes in SCS and other areas in close proximity of china.

So he settled down what he thinks to be the perfect doctrine of navy till 2027(scenarios will change but most probably things will remain very much same)

As of now our naval budget is pretty low so we better start acquiring ships through indian shipyards to keep delays and costs low.We need capital warships and Corvettes in some really good numbers-our destroyer program is on right track and so is frigate, addition of some good well designed and we'll equipped Corvettes will add strength to navy,no need to waste resources on useless heavy 11000+ tonne cruisers.Arm our existing fleet with good number of missiles once Nirbhay program achieves success,Lack of land attack capability is a big big draw back.Our sensors and radar systems are already top notch best in class,it's on right track.Then we need lots of good anti submarine warfare choppers,navy should not wait a day and purchase such choppers off the shelf from foreign vendors.Addition of SOSUS sort of system will act as an actual force multiplier,if budget allows then it won't be a bad idea to develop it.Try to get those refurbished SSN from ruskies ASAP,and put our SSN program on afterburner.We need atleast 12 such SSN by 2030(he sees with current 6 indigenous SSN and 3 SSN happening at the time).Fast tracking our SSK program and upgrade of our existing SSK should be top priority,we need subs in numbers.Also kick those useless MiG off Vikramaditya.INS Vikrant is taking its time,maybe navy wants to delay the induction to keep Operation and procurement costs low.Fast forward our MRSV program,add more LCU,Sri Lanka and Maldives are in very close proximity,we should not waste more time.We should have a few overseas bases for three reasons-showcase our political might,navy will get what it is like to be a blue water navy,will send a very clear message to Chinese sitting in Beijing.

There are few more points that I will post later.

Okay. Lemme reply in sequence:

1. Sir's scenario for the IOR by 2025 is bang on. Except, the Arabian sea will be even more hotly contested than ever, with Chinese bases in Gwadar and Djibouti.
We have to worry about them too.

2. Bay of Bengal will be our bastion thank to the upcoming base at Rambili.

3. We cannot interdict Chinese shipping in the SCS, but we don't need to. Most of it passes through the IOR coming from Aden and African ports and then through the Malacca Straight. We can shut it down right now if we wanted to.

4. Our capital ships are absolutely on track. P-17A and P-15B are progressing as per schedule and our shipyards are finally becoming streamlined enough to churn out large number of ships.

5. Corvettes and shallow water craft such as missile boats and shallow water ASW and minesweepers are a major lacunae in the present fleet.

6. ASW choppers ki toh baat na karo. Puri fleet ki maa behen ho jayegi agar kal war hua toh. Almost zilch rotary asw capability as of now.

7. No more Russki tech. Please. They come with too many riders and conditions. And are a headache to maintain. The IN knows this well, which is why you see the booming interest in the Rubis class. Could you ask sir about this French connection? none of my seniors are saying a word.

8. Overseas bases are not needed, in my opinion. Given the fact that LEMOA will become streamlined in a few years, the IN will have to access to the world's largest logistic network!

 

[aditya10r]

Okay. Lemme reply in sequence:

1. Sir's scenario for the IOR by 2025 is bang on. Except, the Arabian sea will be even more hotly contested than ever, with Chinese bases in Gwadar and Djibouti.
We have to worry about them too.

2. Bay of Bengal will be our bastion thank to the upcoming base at Rambili.

3. We cannot interdict Chinese shipping in the SCS, but we don't need to. Most of it passes through the IOR coming from Aden and African ports and then through the Malacca Straight. We can shut it down right now if we wanted to.

4. Our capital ships are absolutely on track. P-17A and P-15B are progressing as per schedule and our shipyards are finally becoming streamlined enough to churn out large number of ships.

5. Corvettes and shallow water craft such as missile boats and shallow water ASW and minesweepers are a major lacunae in the present fleet.

6. ASW choppers ki toh baat na karo. Puri fleet ki maa behen ho jayegi agar kal war hua toh. Almost zilch rotary asw capability as of now.

7. No more Russki tech. Please. They come with too many riders and conditions. And are a headache to maintain. The IN knows this well, which is why you see the booming interest in the Rubis class. Could you ask sir about this French connection? none of my seniors are saying a word.

8. Overseas bases are not needed, in my opinion. Given the fact that LEMOA will become streamlined in a few years, the IN will have to access to the world's largest logistic network!

I guess navy dudes have different sense of humour.

1.)His main reason for Bob being the most intense areas being Andaman and Nicobar islands our the iron curtain and china may form alliances with Indonesia and Malaysia to deal with us right there,then we have Bangladesh which has recently bought 2 subs from china and coco islands of Myanmar which are some sort of Chinese base.

2.)His point being,as navy transitions into a blue water force then it is a necessity to possess good number of SSN backed by SSK,the Chinese better know-if you can infiltrate in our backyard so can we.Yes,thanks to our position and Chinese trade routes passing through IOR,it is a blessing to us.

3.)He was telling that naval officials raked up issues of low number of dedicated role Corvettes back in 2007-2012,but things moved very very slow, many many mishaps could have happened,we ended up losing a sub and a very capable CNS.Same goes for ASW choppers.

4.)There is no other way to procure SSN so fast and most probably payments have been made,so they are coming and we cannot complain.The Arihant class production line is still engaged with the production of our SSBN,so 6 is the best we can do in next 10-12 years.He said we have really improved our production speed and capacity.Navy seeks to double it's production capabilities by 2030,most of ships to be refitted and overhauled in India only so one can expect more frequent induction of warships once naval budget is pretty large.There was some chatter about baracuda class SSK in Indian Navy(yeah the ones the Aussies are purchasing),but after the leaks navy is looking at all possible options,Russian SSK are also being considered but they are lower down,they liked the soryu class but it's battery were a thing of a problem for us so we kept it off, baracuda is also being considered but as of now no clear picture is there.Only after once the next budget is announced,navy will decide which sub to purchase.He doubts if french would offer their SSN,but if they do so,we have some nice deep pockets to finance their refurbishments.

5.)Many of our interests diverge and converge with USA,not necessary that we will have unrestricted access to their facilities and their logistics network.Navy has done it's share by making regular port calls and deepening it's ties with other navies,it also maintains a very aggressive posture in gulf of Aden to keep pirates in check.We better have a few foreign bases to exercise our power.

 

[aditya10r]

What do you think about his point about Chinese fielding one of their CBG's in IOR to contest with indian navy and USN??

I think it's very much of a reality,not today but maybe in 2030/40 once they possess good number of CBG's

 

[bhramos]

#BREAKING INS Kora the "pocket Destroyers" of the Indian Navy. The Kora class corvettes are carrying 16 Kh-35 AShM. Even most of the frigates around the world are carrying 8 AShMs. Indian Navy may replace the Kh-35s with more capable long range Kalibr AShMs...

Source: FB pages...