Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Hindustani78]

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...tions-india/article22288544.ece?homepage=true
We are aware of China’s maritime ambitions: India

NEW DELHI, December 27, 2017 22:19 IST
Updated: December 27, 2017 22:19 IST

Says it is always on the lookout for any threat to security
The Centre on Wednesday informed the Lok Sabha that it was aware of China’s ambition to emerge as a “maritime power” and indicated that India maintained a “close watch” on all developments that threatened its security.

Issuing a statement on the immediate neighbourhood-related issues, Minister of State for External Affairs Gen. (Ret.) V.K. Singh expressed commitment to stay engaged with the neighbours but maintained that the onus for restarting bilateral dialogue lies with Pakistan.

“India and China have, on several occasions, reiterated that, as large neighbours following independent foreign policies, the relationships pursued by India and China with other countries must not become a source of concern for each other. Both countries have agreed to display mutual respect and sensitivity to each other’s concerns and aspirations,” said Minister of State for External Affairs Gen. (Ret.) V.K. Singh , in response to a question.

The statement is significant in view of China’s recently concluded Free Trade Agreement with the Maldives which has drawn India’s attention.

He said the government kept a “constant watch on all developments having a bearing on India’s security” and maintained that measures were usually taken to address them.

“The government is aware of China’s stated objective of becoming a ‘maritime power’. As part of this strategy, China is developing ports and other infrastructure facilities in the littoral countries in the Indian Ocean region, including in the vicinity of India’s maritime boundary.”

Mr. Singh highlighted the “neighbourhood first” policy as a “continuous and ongoing process” and said India’s ties with its neighbours stood on their own “footing” and were not influenced by third party intervention.

Commenting on ties with Pakistan, he said, the “onus” of starting the Comprehensive Dialogue Process launched during the 2015 visit to Islamabad by External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj, lies on Pakistan.

“The Foreign Secretaries of the two countries were mandated to finalise the modalities of the dialogue. However, the meeting of the Foreign Secretaries could not take place in the wake of the Pathankot Air Base terrorist attack on January 2, 2016 and subsequent intensification of cross-border terrorism aimed at India and emanating from Pakistan,” he said expressing the government’s commitment to resolving “all issues peacefully and bilaterally”.

 

[Hindustani78]

Ministry of Defence
28-December, 2017 17:52 IST
Raksha Mantri visits Karwar Naval Base

Raksha Mantri Smt Nirmala Sitharaman visited project Seabird at Karwar Naval Base today, accompanied by the Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Sunil Lanba. The Raksha Mantri was apprised of the existing facilities developed under Phase 1. She also reviewed the status of ongoing/ planned works under Phase 2A.

Early augmentation of the base was directed by the Raksha Mantri. A meeting was also held on enhanced land compensation issues with all stakeholders present to assess the status of release of payment of land compensation to ex-land owners. Smt Sitharaman directed that the pending cases are to be processed on fast track to bring relief to ex-land owners.

 

[aditya10r]

Today I met brother of my grandmother,he was in Navy now retired and once commandeered the might cbg of INS viraat.

He is very optimistic about Navy's modernization plans and explained how things have changed.Though he retired in 2012,but is still in contact with fellow officers and other staff.

I mainly asked him about how India plans to counter Pakistan and china both-he said presently IN can single handedly deal with both of them,and will be the least stressed force of all three branches.Why he feels so, because Pakistan Navy is only good for patrolling seas and lack good equipment and offensive weapons, submarines can be a challenge but with p-8 aircrafts we can deal with them easily.Chinese don't have long legs and so they cannot interfere in IOR atleast for 10 years,the best thing about IOR is that it has 9 choke points and most of them are either patrolled by friendly navies or are under our reach and are pretty shallow.But as Chinese are stepping up and now have a permanent base in Djibouti and one in gwadar,he thinks navy should up the game very fast with induction of well armed capital ships and submarines.

He also told me not only submarine induction program but many other programs slowed down under khangress rule.Like procurement of batteries,missiles and many other critical stuff was a big mess,it's better today but the paperwork involved is quite a daunting task.

His opinion on INS Vikramaditya is quite unique-according to him it is a very capable ship but there are some very serious issues,it's placement of elevator hangar is a problem,it does not allows for simultaneous take off and landings and mig-29k are a good aircraft,but bogged down by spare supplies.

Our submarine require immediate upgrades and expansion,the more we delay the difficult the task would get.The navy is moving fast on procurement and he expects about some 30+ SSK and SSN by 2030,18 from p-75,p-75i,some indigenous SSK program,6 SSN,3 leased SSN from Russia(he says Russians had floated offer for 2 akula class subs back in 2012,and most possibly navy made payments to refurbish the subs,and we are never gonna return those leased subs-we would continue to extend the leasing period).

And yes Navy wishes to be a 5-6 Carrier force backed by a good number of capital warships and submarines as new powerful neighbours are emerging like Bangladesh and Indonesia and more Chinese intervention in IOR by end of mid century-it is their long term plan.

According to him the navy was at a serious disadvantage without Nirbhay missile,with the development now hitting the right direction-he expects Nirbhay to be deployed in ships 5-7 years from now.

I wanted to know more about INS Arihant program,but he said he didn't have much idea as he was not associated with it or anything.

If you guys have any questions ask me out,I will ask him out.

@Kunal Biswas @sayareakd @binayak95 @Vinod DX9 .

@all....
=====================================

 

[Hindustani78]

The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman arriving at Karwar Naval Base, in Karnataka on December 28, 2017. The Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba is also seen.

The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman inspecting Naval Guard of Honour on her visit to Karwar Naval Base, in Karnataka on December 28, 2017.

 

[sthf]

If you guys have any questions ask me out,I will ask him out.

Great read bro. Please convey my earnest of thanks for his service. I do have a few questions and it'd be much appreciated if you can find out the answers.

1) Is IN on the right path by following fast and "un-stealthy"missile like Brahmos instead of low flying, stealthy Harpoon like missile?

2) What is his opinion about Barak-8?

3) If he gets to choose today which naval fighter will he choose for present and future air craft carriers of Indian Navy.

 

[Vinod DX9]

@aditya10r
Thank You

Convey my thanks to sir

My questions are

1) Still now our future submarine fleet will have only 23 new submarines as no new procurement announced. Is this no enough?
2) Comparing to new American British or Chinese destroyers, our destroyers seem to have 1/2 to 2/3 of missile no carried on ship....why we do not increase the no of missiles (new defence systems in future will have capability to engage even BrahMos type missile, so isn't it important to increase the no of missiles so that hit chances increases?)
3) should we India go for super carriers or more smaller carriers ?
4) Why we didn't make a dedicated Marine force (not including MARCOS)
5) MOST IMPORTANT: Which should be Indian Navy overseas bases ?

 

[aditya10r]

Great read bro. Please convey my earnest of thanks for his service. I do have a few questions and it'd be much appreciated if you can find out the answers.

1) Is IN on the right path by following fast and "un-stealthy"missile like Brahmos instead of low flying, stealthy Harpoon like missile?

2) What is his opinion about Barak-8?

3) If he gets to choose today which naval fighter will he choose for present and future air craft carriers of Indian Navy.

1.According to him,after p-700 Granit missile,brahmos is the best AShM missile onboard any warship.It is fast,highly maneuverable and capable of very steep dive.But lack of any sort of ECM system is a big let down.

It is very capable and very best offensive weapon available on planet.

Any ship can survive a hit or two or harpoon AShM,but surviving a single brahmos is near impossible thing,it's speed and s maneuver capabilities make it really lethal.

2.Barak 8 is also a very good missile with ER variant coming up with extended reach,our vessels are more than prepared for anything.

3.According to him mig-29k are a very capable aircrafts,no doubt,but Russians and the spare nightmare leave almost 2/3rd fleet practically useless most of the time.If he had to chose one,he would go for Rafale M-tailor made for navy.

He also said if Rafale M fair good and suits the doctrine of the navy,then maybe in future navy will ditch mig-29k.

@binayak95 take note.

His opinion on AMCA is also very positive-with present level of technology,our defense industry can give desired results.

But he feels LCA is a terrible idea on a carrier-his reason being it's a lightweight fighter,a multi role capable aircraft,but with very short legs and very short payload.Better to buy a good medium weight aircraft than LCA.

 

[binayak95]

1.According to him,after p-700 Granit missile,brahmos is the best AShM missile onboard any warship.It is fast,highly maneuverable and capable of very steep dive.But lack of any sort of ECM system is a big let down.

It is very capable and very best offensive weapon available on planet.

Any ship can survive a hit or two or harpoon AShM,but surviving a single brahmos is near impossible thing,it's speed and s maneuver capabilities make it really lethal.

2.Barak 8 is also a very good missile with ER variant coming up with extended reach,our vessels are more than prepared for anything.

3.According to him mig-29k are a very capable aircrafts,no doubt,but Russians and the spare nightmare leave almost 2/3rd fleet practically useless most of the time.If he had to chose one,he would go for Rafale M-tailor made for navy.

He also said if Rafale M fair good and suits the doctrine of the navy,then maybe in future navy will ditch mig-29k.

@binayak95 take note.

His opinion on AMCA is also very positive-with present level of technology,our defense industry can give desired results.

But he feels LCA is a terrible idea on a carrier-his reason being it's a lightweight fighter,a multi role capable aircraft,but with very short legs and very short payload.Better to buy a good medium weight aircraft than LCA.

My thanks to sir.

Agreed to all the points, knowing the service as well as I do, the IN is positively giddy about the Brahmos + Barak-8 Combo. They say "venom bhi hamara, anti-venom bhi hamara"

MiG-29Ks are practically useless. They'll be relegated to only the Vikramaditya, since her centerline elevator eliminates the chances of operating any other aircraft.

Rafale-Ms are hard choice, no folding wings. The IN is hoping that the govt. can drive a hard bargain and make Dassault undertake development on their own. But the F-18ASH will be a good choice as well, so not too worried.

I have always said LCA is a no go for carrier aviation.

Cheers and Happy New Year, mate!

 

[aditya10r]

@aditya10r
Thank You

Convey my thanks to sir

My questions are

1) Still now our future submarine fleet will have only 23 new submarines as no new procurement announced. Is this no enough?
2) Comparing to new American British or Chinese destroyers, our destroyers seem to have 1/2 to 2/3 of missile no carried on ship....why we do not increase the no of missiles (new defence systems in future will have capability to engage even BrahMos type missile, so isn't it important to increase the no of missiles so that hit chances increases?)
3) should we India go for super carriers or more smaller carriers ?
4) Why we didn't make a dedicated Marine force (not including MARCOS)
5) MOST IMPORTANT: Which should be Indian Navy overseas bases ?

1.23 are no way enough,he mentioned Chinese submarine movement and warships movement in the IOR is increasing rapidly,we need 30+ SSK and SSN backed with good number of p-8 Poseidon aircraft and maritime surveillance drones.

It will be important wether navy gets to use the drones or airforce.

Back in 2007-09 navy did some evaluation of tu-22m aircrafts in Vladivostok,but eventually left it as it was very expensive to operate.

2.Budget of navy is not big enough that it can put a lot of missiles on its capital warships plus the size on old Rajput class destroyer don't allow for a lot of missiles,only p-17 class allow for lots of missiles.He said with Nirbhay doing good and with NDB improving designs,maybe p-17 class destroyer would get refit to accomodate more offensive missiles once budget for navy is increased.

The navy is more efficient than the other two at managing funds and curtailing delays,but it's share of budget is lowest of all.

With more money navy can increase production capacity only to boost its muscle.

3)Carriers like INS Vishal will suite our future doctrine with INS Vikramaditya and Vikrant complementing such fleet.

We do not need Nimitz carriers but a mini Nimitz carriers,like 60000-7000 tonne carrier would fit our requirements.

Wether we need nuke propulsion or not totally depends on budget and requirements.

4)We are not an expenditionary force that will go on to invade other countries,we do not need any marine corps.What we need is amphibious brigades working in close conjunction with air force and navy.

Plus ATM Navy does not have that many landing crafts that can support such amphibious assault on beachhead.

Nor is it in naval doctrine,nor political requirement,nor need of the region.

But with amphibious assault brigade, intervention in island states such as Sri Lanka and Maldives would be very easy.

5) According to him there are multiple places of interest in IOR and western pacific ocean.

He thinks location such as Sri Lanka, Maldives,Oman, Indonesia, Madagascar, Kenya, Fiji, Myanmar, Bangladesh,seychelles, Mauritius are of prime locations.

We can even ask to lease ports in French indian ocean territory.

 

[aditya10r]

My thanks to sir.

Agreed to all the points, knowing the service as well as I do, the IN is positively giddy about the Brahmos + Barak-8 Combo. They say "venom bhi hamara, anti-venom bhi hamara"

MiG-29Ks are practically useless. They'll be relegated to only the Vikramaditya, since her centerline elevator eliminates the chances of operating any other aircraft.

Rafale-Ms are hard choice, no folding wings. The IN is hoping that the govt. can drive a hard bargain and make Dassault undertake development on their own. But the F-18ASH will be a good choice as well, so not too worried.

I have always said LCA is a no go for carrier aviation.

Cheers and Happy New Year, mate!

I asked him,in a hypothetical scenario let's assume,India has to blockade Pakistan,how will it play out.

He said it will take about 24-48 hours for navy to get in position for all out offensive on pakistan and patrol choke points.

It will be a stressful task as today our submarine levels are low and we do not have the numbers required for p-8 Poseidon aircraft,but navy would be doing just okay to do it's task.

It will take very little amount of time(maybe less than 24 hours) to sink entire pakistan navy plus coast guard,thanks to venom(brahmos),and satellites we have.Even in any hypothetical scenario let's assume any jf-17 or mirage 3 takes off with any harpoon or any such Chinese missile or any of its surface ships somehow with a grace of God survives,then that aircraft would either be taken out by mig-29k or barak-8.There is no escaping.

Our minesweepers will have to work double time to keep our ships safe as they pose a very big threat.

P-8 would assist navy submarines dealing with jehadis underwater,we have a very good network system and possibly beat in Asia.

He summarised it that PN cannot survive more than 72 hours against indian navy,there is no chance.

1/4th of IN is more than enough for them.None of their ships has advanced electronics and radars and armaments.

His main case for Rafale M being it has best ECM system available.F-18 hornets are also not bad but when Rafale is available,we should go french.

 

[aditya10r]

Also asked his opinion on Next generation Destroyer program and told him Navy wishes for 13000 tonne destroyer.

He thinks it's a very over optimistic idea to envision 13000 tonne destroyer.
It cannot work for us.Because as their are 9 choke points and IOR being plauged with piracy and terrorists,such a ship is worthless.We need warships in numbers and bases close to such choke points.

His case being such a ship would burn a big bad hole in naval budget,better is to make a matured 8000-9000 tonne destroyer with good set of armament and more vls and quad pack of missiles,stealth design and rail guns with laser based tech(if such technology matures in next 10 years).

He would love to see something like Saar 6 class corvette or Buyan class frigate or Burke class destroyer.

Such ships suit our doctrine,ships like 055a or zumwalt can burn hole in navies with massive budgets.

 

[Chinmoy]

Nice @aditya10r .... Very valid points . Now enjoy this episode. Although its of 2016, but very relevant and as always, to the point.

Sorry again if a repost.

 

[sthf]

@aditya10r

Thanks for the reply mate. The information and insights you are providing is a treasure and sorry to bother you again but I do have few more questions if you don't mind. If possible ask the following;

1) Since he is partial to a Sa'ar 6 class, is it better to invest in smaller frigates in larger numbers like a more capable Kamorta class for eg instead of larger and thrice as expensive P-17A?

2) In his opinion, does the IN need a modern stealthy equivalent of F-111, essentially a long range fighter bomber with internal weapons bays to dominate IOR, given the strategic location of India?


3) Is it possible to integrate navalized land based rocket launchers (BM-30 or Pinaka for eg.) on a small to mid sized ship for shore bombing and is it of any use in modern combat?

I know the last one is silly but I have been curious about it for years.:biggrin2:

 

[Hindustani78]

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...l-be-addressed-by-jan-end/article22328932.ece

Nirmala Sitharaman says second phase of expansion is going on in full swing in Karwar

Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman said here on Friday that pending issues related to land acquisition for Phase I of Project Seabird at the INS Kadamba Naval Base in Karwar will be addressed by January 31, 2018.

Ms. Sitharaman told presspersons here that during her visit to Karwar on Thursday, she had a detailed review of issues related to payment of compensation to owners of land acquired for the Phase 1 of the project. She said there were a set of cases pending in the court for which the Defence Ministry has already deposited ₹300 crore as directed by court. Direction has been given to the Ministry officials to clear these cases and ensure that the land owners get the compensation at the earliest, she added.

The Minister said there were 1,008 cases under Section 28 (A) of the Land Acquisition Act. Of this, 270 cases have been cleared, while 217 were pending as the documents from the State were yet to reach the Defence Ministry. There are 376 cases pending for want of correction of documents. There are 931 cases under Section 18 of the Act that are pending for want of authentication by the State government. “I have asked the Ministry officials to have sitting either in Bengaluru or Karwar and resolve it by January 31, 2018,” she said.

She said second phase of expansion under Project Seabird was going on in full swing. More spaces will be created for anchoring vessels. Asked of the extent to which the Naval Base will be expanded, Ms. Sitharaman said, “It is difficult for me to say till where, but we have started the second phase of development,” she said, adding that the expansion was in an area acquired by the Defence Ministry. When she visited the Naval Base on Thursday she was accompanied by Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sunil Lamba. On Friday, she visited the Coast Guards Karnataka Headquarters in Mangaluru and reviewed the maritime security preparedness.

 

[Armand2REP]

3) Is it possible to integrate navalized land based rocket launchers (BM-30 or Pinaka for eg.) on a small to mid sized ship for shore bombing and is it of any use in modern combat?

I know the last one is silly but I have been curious about it for years.:biggrin2:

You can do it if you don't plan on reloading. Storing and handling those large rockets would require large facilities and for stabilisation would be better mounted on a larger vessel. The pitch and roll of smaller vessels would lead to accuracy problems even with a gyro mount.

 

[Willy2]

You can do it if you don't plan on reloading. Storing and handling those large rockets would require large facilities and for stabilisation would be better mounted on a larger vessel. The pitch and roll of smaller vessels would lead to accuracy problems even with a gyro mount.

Is there any example of Ships with MRLS ?

 

[Armand2REP]

Is there any example of Ships with MRLS ?

The US is experimenting with it on amphibious assault vessels but that only works with GPS auto-correcting munitions carried by HIMARS.

North Korea tried it with BM-21 but it is really a joke.

If you are doing long range you really need guidance kits for it to make any sense otherwise just stick to rapid fire guns.

 

[aditya10r]

@aditya10r

Thanks for the reply mate. The information and insights you are providing is a treasure and sorry to bother you again but I do have few more questions if you don't mind. If possible ask the following;

1) Since he is partial to a Sa'ar 6 class, is it better to invest in smaller frigates in larger numbers like a more capable Kamorta class for eg instead of larger and thrice as expensive P-17A?

2) In his opinion, does the IN need a modern stealthy equivalent of F-111, essentially a long range fighter bomber with internal weapons bays to dominate IOR, given the strategic location of India?


3) Is it possible to integrate navalized land based rocket launchers (BM-30 or Pinaka for eg.) on a small to mid sized ship for shore bombing and is it of any use in modern combat?

I know the last one is silly but I have been curious about it for years.:biggrin2:

Conveyed your greetings to him.He was delighted that his info has come in handy to us and wishes all of us Happy New Year.

Back to the question.

1.)Well ships such as Saar 6 class pack good punch and good set of electronics and radars but such low tonnage hampers future modifications and such low tonnage means very little armour.

We need Saar 6 class ships as Corvettes, Shivalik class ships as frigates and p-17a/b as destroyers.

Another thing,lots of space and vls are unutilized on p-17 class ships and Shivalik class.With proper upgrade and quad pack of missiles-kolkata class can easily be armed with about 80+ missiles of various roles.Maybe in future when they undergo refit and naval budget allows ships to be armed to teeth,we can do it.

He is totally disappointed with our new asw Corvettes,Kamorta class.He says these ships can do various roles such as air defense,land attack and anti submarine operations,he does not understand the logic of having a 3500 tonne warship for just one specified purpose.

2.)We need long range maritime drones and ucav's,such aircrafts are cheap to procure and operate.AURA program is the one that suits the requirement.Aircraft like advark are of no use in Indian Navy.

3.)No,for shore bombing we have our carrier battle group.We can easily do it with the help of aircrafts.But if such is a requirement,then he would ask for small missile boats.Armed with brahmos/Nirbhay missiles for attack and sterla SAM for self defence.

He is also very optimistic of Indian Navy MRSV program,Juan Carlos ship is perfect for us.If such ship is complemented with 10-12 F-35B then indian navy will be the unchallenged force in IOR.

@binayak95 @Vinod DX9 @all.....

 

[binayak95]

Conveyed your greetings to him.He was delighted that his info has come in handy to us and wishes all of us Happy New Year.

Back to the question.

1.)Well ships such as Saar 6 class pack good punch and good set of electronics and radars but such low tonnage hampers future modifications and such low tonnage means very little armour.

We need Saar 6 class ships as Corvettes, Shivalik class ships as frigates and p-17a/b as destroyers.

Another thing,lots of space and vls are unutilized on p-17 class ships and Shivalik class.With proper upgrade and quad pack of missiles-kolkata class can easily be armed with about 80+ missiles of various roles.Maybe in future when they undergo refit and naval budget allows ships to be armed to teeth,we can do it.

He is totally disappointed with our new asw Corvettes,Kamorta class.He says these ships can do various roles such as air defense,land attack and anti submarine operations,he does not understand the logic of having a 3500 tonne warship for just one specified purpose.

2.)We need long range maritime drones and ucav's,such aircrafts are cheap to procure and operate.AURA program is the one that suits the requirement.Aircraft like advark are of no use in Indian Navy.

3.)No,for shore bombing we have our carrier battle group.We can easily do it with the help of aircrafts.But if such is a requirement,then he would ask for small missile boats.Armed with brahmos/Nirbhay missiles for attack and sterla SAM for self defence.

He is also very optimistic of Indian Navy MRSV program,Juan Carlos ship is perfect for us.If such ship is complemented with 10-12 F-35B then indian navy will be the unchallenged force in IOR.

@binayak95 @Vinod DX9 @all.....

I think you're confusing p-15a with p-17. P-17 is the shivalik class. Kolkata is p-15a.

Agreed about the lots of unutilised space onboard the new frigates and destroyers.

About Kamorta class: its dedicated for ASW because of certain modifications:

1. Ultra quiet propulsion due to the engines, transmission and gearbox being housed on separate mountings that are all dampened

2. Low cost. you add AShMs and SAMs and required sensors, you get increased costs, increased crew and increased maintenance.

3. The large 3500 tonne size is just the requisite size for a proper blue water ship.

 

[kstriya]

Conveyed your greetings to him.He was delighted that his info has come in handy to us and wishes all of us Happy New Year.

Back to the question.

1.)Well ships such as Saar 6 class pack good punch and good set of electronics and radars but such low tonnage hampers future modifications and such low tonnage means very little armour.

We need Saar 6 class ships as Corvettes, Shivalik class ships as frigates and p-17a/b as destroyers.

Another thing,lots of space and vls are unutilized on p-17 class ships and Shivalik class.With proper upgrade and quad pack of missiles-kolkata class can easily be armed with about 80+ missiles of various roles.Maybe in future when they undergo refit and naval budget allows ships to be armed to teeth,we can do it.

He is totally disappointed with our new asw Corvettes,Kamorta class.He says these ships can do various roles such as air defense,land attack and anti submarine operations,he does not understand the logic of having a 3500 tonne warship for just one specified purpose.

2.)We need long range maritime drones and ucav's,such aircrafts are cheap to procure and operate.AURA program is the one that suits the requirement.Aircraft like advark are of no use in Indian Navy.

3.)No,for shore bombing we have our carrier battle group.We can easily do it with the help of aircrafts.But if such is a requirement,then he would ask for small missile boats.Armed with brahmos/Nirbhay missiles for attack and sterla SAM for self defence.

He is also very optimistic of Indian Navy MRSV program,Juan Carlos ship is perfect for us.If such ship is complemented with 10-12 F-35B then indian navy will be the unchallenged force in IOR.

@binayak95 @Vinod DX9 @all.....

Thank you ! On the LPD/LHD I had arguments with many forum members that a pocket carrier would be the best choice and Juan Carlos class fits the bill but I would rather like a mix of F35’s and NLCA. F35 can act as a force multiplier for NLCA.