Indian EMB-145 AEW&C

[Wisemarko]

Whats the difference between E2D and E3 sentry?????

E2 is made for aircraft carrier operations so smaller, turboprop powered while E3 is a large platform. Eventually both need replacement. Any specifics you want to know?

 

[Deathstar]

E2 is made for aircraft carrier operations so smaller, turboprop powered while E3 is a large platform. Eventually both need replacement. Any specifics you want to know?

Nope just wanted to why 2 different AEWs.....what will be their eventual replacements???? Any ongoing project?m

 

[Armand2REP]

Nope just wanted to why 2 different AEWs.....what will be their eventual replacements???? Any ongoing project?m

There is no replacement for the E-2C except the E-2D. The E-3 will be replaced by the E-767 which is putting the same upgraded sensors onto a more fuel efficient platform. The British ran out of money waiting on it so they went the cheaper route with Wedgetails. France has been keeping up with E-3 USAF upgrades which will see them flying until 2035. Airbus is contemplating making a competing platform but it must have enough potential buyers to make it worth the effort. There is no point trying to sell it to Uncle Sam as their protectionism cancelled Airbus winning the tanker contract for an inferior Boeing design plagued with problems.

 

[Wisemarko]

Nope just wanted to why 2 different AEWs.....what will be their eventual replacements???? Any ongoing project?m

E-2 is for US Navy Carrier-born ops. E-3 is with USAF. E-2 is therefore, fitted with arresting gear and much smaller. The E2D version is recent (2015) and in production till 2026. Miniaturization of radar and sensor tech has saved the need for immediate replacement but there will be a decision to make for their replacement in next decade. A manned or unmanned platform would be the biggest point.

E-3 replacement is closer. Judging by what RAF and RAAF selected, and NATO will select, E-7 (B737) option makes the most sense. It is getting increasingly difficult to maintain 707.

 

[abingdonboy]

Phalcon AWACS on Ilyushin platforms are expensive, limited in number and costly to operate. 3 present , 2 more are being planned.

As I said, these AEWC platforms will supplement existing AWACSs and work in tandem.

CABS is already looking at bigger platform like Airbus 330 to mount their 360-degree coverage radar.

Also, C295 deal is purely for Avro replacement.

Post-Balakot, IAF has understood the criticality and importance of such platforms.

One last chance should be made for those 2 PHALCONS because the first of the AWACS (India) assets won’t be coming for another 5-6 years but if Israel and Russia continue to play stupid games with the price then another 2-3 Netras should be ordered just as an interim measure. Any more than that would not be advisable as they will be limiting once AWACS (India) arrives on the scene.

Ideally IAF should have been foreword thinking and gone to airbus to get those last 2 EL/M-2090s integrated on the A330. That way they would have commonality with the AWACS (INDIA) and MRTT fleets.

Any informed views on how the Netras performance is compared to the Napakis Saab / Chinki maal? Pretty comparable I would have thought?

Netra is superior in pretty much every measure.

So thats why A330 purchase?????............mmm

The Phalcon G550 CAEW overcomes this blindspot problem by having additional antennas in the nose and tailcone of the aircraft. CABS should have followed the same principle with Netra

I do not understand the concept of using large A330 as AEW&C over B737/A320. Cost of A330 itself is 3 times more. The size and range benefits are of 30%. Operating A330 costs at least 2x more. Take off and landing distance limits A330 to longer runways reducing available airports. No wonder any nation has not purchased A330 or B777 based AEW&C. Most nations can buy 2 smaller equally capable systems for cost of one A330.

The real issue is need. Since introduction of E3 on 707, the size of AEW&C platforms has continuously gone down. Miniaturization of radar and other equipment means a potent, cheaper aircraft can do the same work of a large one at much lower cost. For instance, IAI made and Boeing 707 based Phalcon sold to Chile is significantly less capable than G550 mounted Eitam. The new GlobalEye from SAAB is extremely potent yet costs less than $300 million.

In my opinion, B737 based Wedgetail is the ideal size for AEW&C. It has a long range, complete 360° coverage, crew comfort with replacement crew facility, best in class ELINT, latest AESA, potent systems, space for growth and operating cost close to G550. It has commonality with P-8 as well.

Many here still think they know better than the experts and that IAF are buffoons that pick platforms at random and have no idea what they want or need.

A330 allows for longer time on station, greater coverage, more expeditionary capability as well as more multi-role capability.

People continuously fail to take into account that systems like this aren’t procured for today but with the future in mind. AWACS (INDIA) based on the A330 will come around 2024/5 by the time India is a $5TN USD economy spending close to $100bn/year on defence. They will serve for 15-20 years by the time India is a $20-30TN economy spending >$500bn/year in defence most likely. If you think the IAF won’t have a regional/global presence in the medium to long term you are deluding yourselves.

Wedgetail/biz jet AEWs are being snapped up by island nations or minuscule nations like Singapore, Australia, Isreal etc. But the big guys (US, France, Russia, China, UK, NATO etc) are all sticking with the big boys- wide bodies. And there’s a clear reason for it.

The smaller AEW wedgetail/biz jets are okay for tactical cover of a relatively small area but how aren’t you going to mount a 360’ dome antenna that DRDO has designed for AWACS (India) on it? You don’t need that the internet experts will say, go tell that to DRDO and save them and IAF billions.

So it has to be a wide body and the A330 is the perfect option of all possible options.

 

[uoftotaku]

Many here still think they know better than the experts and that IAF are buffoons that pick platforms at random and have no idea what they want or need.

A330 allows for longer time on station, greater coverage, more expeditionary capability as well as more multi-role capability.

Wedgetail/biz jet AEWs are being snapped up by island nations or minuscule nations like Singapore, Australia, Isreal etc. But the big guys (US, France, Russia, China, UK, NATO etc) are all sticking with the big boys- wide bodies. And there’s a clear reason for it.

The smaller AEW wedgetail/biz jets are okay for tactical cover of a relatively small area but how aren’t you going to mount a 360’ dome antenna that DRDO has designed for AWACS (India) on it? You don’t need that the internet experts will say, go tell that to DRDO and save them and IAF billions.

So it has to be a wide body and the A330 is the perfect option of all possible options.

You are quite wrong to say that wide body aircraft are the preferred choice. In fact it is the opposite.

The most widely used AWACS platform in the world is the E-3 Sentry, based on the 707 airframe which is a narrowbody with same cross section as the current 737

The next generation AWACS platform for the US, UK and its NATO allies will be based on the E-7 which is a 737..also a narrow body.

The current market leader for AEW is the Israeli G550-based CAEW which is a narrobody bizjet. Followed up by the EMB-145 and Bombardier Global 6000 based platforms.

In fact there are ONLY TWO actual widebody based AWACS platforms in service in the world today. First is the Il-76 based A-50 in Russia and its cousin the IAF Phalcon. The second is the 767 based E-767 is service with Japan.

Nobody except India has made any effort to use the A-330 as a platform for future AWACS. The A-330MRTT is in service only in tanker/transport role.

 

[abingdonboy]

You are quite wrong to say that wide body aircraft are the preferred choice. In fact it is the opposite.

The most widely used AWACS platform in the world is the E-3 Sentry, based on the 707 airframe which is a narrowbody with same cross section as the current 737

The next generation AWACS platform for the US, UK and its NATO allies will be based on the E-7 which is a 737..also a narrow body.

The current market leader for AEW is the Israeli G550-based CAEW which is a narrobody bizjet. Followed up by the EMB-145 and Bombardier Global 6000 based platforms.

In fact there are ONLY TWO actual widebody based AWACS platforms in service in the world today. First is the Il-76 based A-50 in Russia and its cousin the IAF Phalcon. The second is the 767 based E-767 is service with Japan.

Nobody except India has made any effort to use the A-330 as a platform for future AWACS. The A-330MRTT is in service only in tanker/transport role.

You are quite correct. The 707 is a narrow body but it’s a larger airliner and not a biz jet/wedge tail platform.

USAF had planned to go for the E10 which would have been based on the 767 wide body but because of costs has decided to upgrade their E3s to E3NG standard and keep them flying for the foreseeable future.

NATO too has no plans on retiring their E3s neither does France.

Russia/China use the A50 wide body/converted cargo a/c.

So my point remains the same- India isn’t the outlier here. A large airliner/wide body is the preffered option for nations that require higher time on station, longer ferry ranges, augmented crews etc etc.


You won’t be able to fit a radar with the power of the AWACS (India) antenna on a G550 its as simple as that. I’d rather take the word of the designers over some guys on the internet.

 

[Wisemarko]

One last chance should be made for those 2 PHALCONS because the first of the AWACS (India) assets won’t be coming for another 5-6 years but if Israel and Russia continue to play stupid games with the price then another 2-3 Netras should be ordered just as an interim measure. Any more than that would not be advisable as they will be limiting once AWACS (India) arrives on the scene.

Ideally IAF should have been foreword thinking and gone to airbus to get those last 2 EL/M-2090s integrated on the A330. That way they would have commonality with the AWACS (INDIA) and MRTT fleets.


Netra is superior in pretty much every measure.







Many here still think they know better than the experts and that IAF are buffoons that pick platforms at random and have no idea what they want or need.

A330 allows for longer time on station, greater coverage, more expeditionary capability as well as more multi-role capability.

People continuously fail to take into account that systems like this aren’t procured for today but with the future in mind. AWACS (INDIA) based on the A330 will come around 2024/5 by the time India is a $5TN USD economy spending close to $100bn/year on defence. They will serve for 15-20 years by the time India is a $20-30TN economy spending >$500bn/year in defence most likely. If you think the IAF won’t have a regional/global presence in the medium to long term you are deluding yourselves.

Wedgetail/biz jet AEWs are being snapped up by island nations or minuscule nations like Singapore, Australia, Isreal etc. But the big guys (US, France, Russia, China, UK, NATO etc) are all sticking with the big boys- wide bodies. And there’s a clear reason for it.

The smaller AEW wedgetail/biz jets are okay for tactical cover of a relatively small area but how aren’t you going to mount a 360’ dome antenna that DRDO has designed for AWACS (India) on it? You don’t need that the internet experts will say, go tell that to DRDO and save them and IAF billions.

So it has to be a wide body and the A330 is the perfect option of all possible options.

......................................Lol

 

[HariPrasad-1]

30 July 2009

Bangalore: The Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) at Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has revealed that it has developed a low-cost, indigenous radar system, which will match and even surpass the Israeli Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS).

''DRDO is equipped to develop an indigenous radar system at substantially low-cost by using technologies developed for indigenous AEW&CS,'' said a CABS official.An indigenous airborne early warning and control system (AEW&CS), to be based on Embraer-145 platforms, is being readied for delivery by 2011. The system will be developed at a cost of Rs 1,800-crore.

This CABS- developed indigenous system alone is capable of creating business opportunities worth Rs500-600 crore for SMEs in the country. CABS officials said its various work centres at DRDO are already tapping around 50-60 SMEs and PSUs to develop the indigenous system.

Some of these SMEs include Astra Microwave, Alligator Designs, Mistral Solutions, CMC, BEL, BDL, Chaturvedi Tools, SM Creative, Cornett, Data Patterns and Ayur.According to DRDO sources, the Indian Air Force may eventually be interested in acquiring at least 20 such systems.

India took delivery of its first AWACS aircraft in May 2009, part of a $1.1-billion defence deal with Israel. The system is meant to detect aircraft and monitor troop movements and enemy communications at distances of hundreds of kilometres.

The indigenous AEW&CS, to be mounted on three Embraer-145 jets, ''will be very advanced with the latest image processing facilities and better software systems compared to foreign sophisticated radar systems,'' according to DRDO chief controller (R&D) Prahalad .Scientists at CABS and its work centres at the LRDE, Defence Avionics Research Establishment, Defence Electronics Research Laboratory, DEAL at DRDO have developed indigenous software for tactical battle management and signal processing, which can be used in radars.

Reports now suggest that DRDO may be looking for a foreign partner to help CABS optimise time and cost involved in integrating systems and evaluation for the AEWC&S.


domain-b.com : DRDO's development of AEW&CS system to result in low-cost offshoot

There is nothing on Ground even after a decade.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

One last chance should be made for those 2 PHALCONS because the first of the AWACS (India) assets won’t be coming for another 5-6 years but if Israel and Russia continue to play stupid games with the price then another 2-3 Netras should be ordered just as an interim measure. Any more than that would not be advisable as they will be limiting once AWACS (India) arrives on the scene.

SAAB AEW & C has a 300 degree coverage and uses better frequency. We should build similar 300 * coverage AEW & C with L band to improve efficiency.

 

[Wisemarko]

SAAB AEW & C has a 300 degree coverage and uses better frequency. We should build similar 300 * coverage AEW & C with L band to improve efficiency.

SAAB Erieye uses S-Band. It’s higher frequency than L-Band on other AEW in the market.
S-Band is better to accurately pinpoint the location of the aircraft compared to L Band. Also radar size is smaller. This is due to higher frequency. But it has higher degradation due to its frequency being (2-4 GHz) in microwave range. Therefore it has lower range than L-Band.

L-Band is used in almost all other AEW. It’s lower frequency (1-2 GHZ) can detect (especially if receiver antenna is large enough) even smaller, stealthier targets. It is much more difficult to jam as well. New L-Band equipped Wedgetail have range up to 500NM!

 

[ForigenSanghi]

another 2-3 Netras should be ordered just as an interim measure. Any more than that would not be advisable as they will be limiting once AWACS (India) arrives on the scene.

I thought IAF and CABS had a plan to build 20 Netras. Have not heard any thing to indicate a change of plan on this front.

A regional jet allows for similar capabilities to narrow body jets and is cheaper to procure and operate. Especially on peace time missions one doesn't need an IL76 or A330 in the air.

Nobody except India has made any effort to use the A-330 as a platform for future AWACS. The A-330MRTT is in service only in tanker/transport role.

You won’t be able to fit a radar with the power of the AWACS (India) antenna on a G550 its as simple as that. I’d rather take the word of the designers over some guys on the internet.

Think the reason for use of A330 is much simpler than all your speculation. I have read several times that IAF plans to use the same jets for dual AEWACS and Tanker roles. In fact there were even negotiations with airbus for the same.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

I thought IAF and CABS had a plan to build 20 Netras. Have not heard any thing to indicate a change of plan on this front.

A regional jet allows for similar capabilities to narrow body jets and is cheaper to procure and operate. Especially on peace time missions one doesn't need an IL76 or A330 in the air.



Think the reason for use of A330 is much simpler than all your speculation. I have read several times that IAF plans to use the same jets for dual AEWACS and Tanker roles. In fact there were even negotiations with airbus for the same.

The dual role might be to refuel the fighter escorts...

 

[uoftotaku]

Think the reason for use of A330 is much simpler than all your speculation. I have read several times that IAF plans to use the same jets for dual AEWACS and Tanker roles. In fact there were even negotiations with airbus for the same.

That plan for using the AWACS as a tanker was so stupid I thought it was a hoax initially. Who the hell would want to use a $1B strategic asset like an AWACS to conduct tanking?

In fact it would negate the value of using a large platform like the A-330 in the first place...the AWACS equipment weighs close to 40T by itself...it can't carry any additional fuel tanks as the cargo bay space will be taken up by equipment. That means the plane would be offloading its own usable fuel supply thereby reducing its on station time and totally removing its own raison d'etre against the "short range" Netra.

That the huge radome causes funny aerodynamic instability on both the platform and in the air stream behind it seems to have slipped everyone's mind too. A-to-A refuelling is a tricky proposition in the best circumstances...to add complications is something only our geniuses can come up with. Small wonder why they are a laughing stock in global defence circles...

 

[fire starter]

DRDO NETRA AWACS

The Airborne Surveillance System is a game changer in air warfare. The AEW&C System is a system of systems populated with state-of-the art Active Electronically Scanned Radar, Secondary Surveillance Radar, Electronic and Communication Counter Measures, LOS (Line of Sight) and beyond LOS data link, voice communication system and self protection suite, built on an Emb-145 platform, having an air to air refueling capability to enhance surveillance time.

Complex tactical software has been developed for fusion of information from the sensors, to provide the air situation picture along with intelligence to handle identification/classification threat assessment. Battle management functions are built in house to work as a network centric system of Integrated Air Command & Control System (IACCS) node.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

DRDO NETRA AWACS

The Airborne Surveillance System is a game changer in air warfare. The AEW&C System is a system of systems populated with state-of-the art Active Electronically Scanned Radar, Secondary Surveillance Radar, Electronic and Communication Counter Measures, LOS (Line of Sight) and beyond LOS data link, voice communication system and self protection suite, built on an Emb-145 platform, having an air to air refueling capability to enhance surveillance time.

Complex tactical software has been developed for fusion of information from the sensors, to provide the air situation picture along with intelligence to handle identification/classification threat assessment. Battle management functions are built in house to work as a network centric system of Integrated Air Command & Control System (IACCS) node.View attachment 42130

Would be great if another 5 of these aircraft are bought for AEW&C role.

 

[Gautam Sarkar]

Defexpo ended and the forum seems to have slowed down suddenly. Well here is something to ponder over :

 

[Assassin 2.0]

4 countries with a AEWCS on same platform, but with huge differences. DRDO has managed to cram so much in such a small platform. Yet, import lobby will not allow manufacturing and sales in higher numbers. They're happy to import inferior foreign equipment for obvious reasons.

 

[Atcjurvin]

4 countries with a AEWCS on same platform, but with huge differences. DRDO has managed to cram so much in such a small platform. Yet, import lobby will not allow manufacturing and sales in higher numbers. They're happy to import inferior foreign equipment for obvious reasons.

View attachment 43605

Netra is a very capable platform further orders should be placed ASAP.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Netra is a very capable platform further orders should be placed ASAP.

I think dallals and foreign proxies.
Are working very hard to stop DRDO in development of cutting edge radar technology.
Because that will kill many of their future orders.