Indian EMB-145 AEW&C

[aarav]

India in advanced negotiations for two A330 aircraft for indigenous AEW&C programme
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - Jane's Defence Weekly
28 May 2019
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India's government-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in advanced negotiations with Airbus Defence and Space to procure two A330 military transport aircraft for fitment with indigenously designed airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) systems that will enable for longer-range surveillance and target detection.

Industry sources told Jane's on 28 May that price negotiations to acquire the two platforms for the Indian Air Force (IAF) are expected to be concluded "imminently", with a contract set to follow by the end of the year.

According to the sources, Airbus would be required to deliver the A330s with structural modifications, power and endurance adaptations as well as assorted provisions to support the AEW&C systems designed by the DRDO's Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS).
https://www.janes.com/article/88799...-a330-aircraft-for-indigenous-aew-c-programme

This is the next big thing for IAF, 'game changer' as they call it and deal for 2 is in the end game.

 

[republic_roi97]

Means no Indian Regional Jet will be developed now? RTA-70 & 90 cancelled.

That's just for Awacs I think.

 

[abingdonboy]

Need atleast 6-8 more of these force multipliers.

IAF didn’t want Netra. They only ever wanted AWACS in Phalcon/EL/M-2090 class. They agreed to take Netra as a stepping stone to AWACS (INDIA) which is the kind they really want (360’ scanning, high power, high endurance, wide body a/c).

Netra has already proven itself earlier this year in real world ops and the experiments and experience gained in IAF service will be invaluable to DRDO/CABS for developing its bigger brother.

With C295 order nearing finalization, I am hopeful that next AEWC will be based on that platform.

1) IAF doesn’t want more Netra
2) as far as IAF is concerned C295 would be a step backwards as a platform over the EMB-145. C295 has lower service ceiling (hence can’t scan as far), lower top speed, lower range etc etc.

There’s no apparent need for a Netra based on C295 platform in India although maybe the ICG could have a look at it as the Netra has very impressive maritime tracking capabilities however the ICG is already investing in the C295 based MMMA so there might be too much overlap there to justify a separate Netra order.

That said the DRDO should aggressively market the Netra in the export market, it has huge potential there.

Any news about the third Netra ... Will it still be used for testing .. or is it going to be handed over to IAF ?

Afaik 3rd remains with CABS for testing and validation to assist with AWACS (INDIA) development.

Means no Indian Regional Jet will be developed now? RTA-70 & 90 cancelled.

Absolutely no impact on RTA at all.

 

[shankyz]

Phalcon AWACS on Ilyushin platforms are expensive, limited in number and costly to operate. 3 present , 2 more are being planned.

As I said, these AEWC platforms will supplement existing AWACSs and work in tandem.

CABS is already looking at bigger platform like Airbus 330 to mount their 360-degree coverage radar.

Also, C295 deal is purely for Avro replacement.

Post-Balakot, IAF has understood the criticality and importance of such platforms.

 

[Akula]

Pic credit- Harshal Pal

 

[tarunraju]

I doubt India will invest in turboprop-based AEW aircraft due to their low service ceiling and clumsy speed, which are especially unfit for J&K. RTA-70 in particular is barely 400 km/h. The fastest commercial turboprop is the Bombardier DH8 Q400, which flies at 550 km/h.

Maybe when we have bigger carriers than what we have, we could design a Netra-based turboprop rivaling the E-2 Hawkeye.

 

[Deathstar]

I doubt India will invest in turboprop-based AEW aircraft due to their low service ceiling and clumsy speed, which are especially unfit for J&K. RTA-70 in particular is barely 400 km/h. The fastest commercial turboprop is the Bombardier DH8 Q400, which flies at 550 km/h.

Maybe when we have bigger carriers than what we have, we could design a Netra-based turboprop rivaling the E-2 Hawkeye.

Cant we convert some of our C130js into AEWACs?? instead of developing an entirely new turboprop a/Cs??????C130s are reliable , proven track record

 

[tarunraju]

Cant we convert some of our C130js into AEWACs?? instead of developing an entirely new turboprop a/Cs??????C130s are reliable , proven track record

We desperately need C130Js. Right now India's best bet to shore up AEW fleet is ERJ-145+Netra aircraft.

Right now, one more ERJ-145+Netra is on order, while two more Il-76+Phalcon are being ordered.

India must follow up for 6 more ERJ-145+Netra, at least.

 

[Longewala]

Any informed views on how the Netras performance is compared to the Napakis Saab / Chinki maal? Pretty comparable I would have thought?

 

[Deathstar]

We desperately need C130Js. Right now India's best bet to shore up AEW fleet is ERJ-145+Netra aircraft.

Right now, one more ERJ-145+Netra is on order, while two more Il-76+Phalcon are being ordered.

India must follow up for 6 more ERJ-145+Netra, at least.

But Netras arent with 360 degree coverage right????what if DRDO develops a better version with 360 degree or is it developing????

 

[uoftotaku]

But Netras arent with 360 degree coverage right????what if DRDO develops a better version with 360 degree or is it developing????

360deg coverage cannot be achieved with a fixed flat aperture array. Either you need a 3rd aperture like that seen on the new E-2D or a rotating array. DRDO CABS is taking the former route but is a much larger antenna so cannot fit on the EMB-145 platform

 

[Deathstar]

360deg coverage cannot be achieved with a fixed flat aperture array. Either you need a 3rd aperture like that seen on the new E-2D or a rotating array. DRDO CABS is taking the former route but is a much larger antenna so cannot fit on the EMB-145 platform

So thats why A330 purchase?????............mmm

 

[Akula]

View attachment 38424
Pic credit- Harshal Pal

Guys ,these are only renders no official project which I posted.

 

[shankyz]

Any informed views on how the Netras performance is compared to the Napakis Saab / Chinki maal? Pretty comparable I would have thought?

Paks use SAAB Erieye + Chinese ZDK-03.

SAAB radar is good, platform is turboprob I guess, so most probably slower.

ZDK : not much details

 

[tarunraju]

But Netras arent with 360 degree coverage right????what if DRDO develops a better version with 360 degree or is it developing????

No, they have a roughly 170-degree FOV per side (340 degrees), and the aircraft holding pattern somewhat compensates for blindspots.

 

[Anikastha]

So thats why A330 purchase?????............mmm

aerial refueling tanker.....
may be.....
00000

 

[Defcon 1]

No, they have a roughly 170-degree FOV per side (340 degrees), and the aircraft holding pattern somewhat compensates for blindspots.

It can't be 170 degree. Phased array radars are limited to 120 degree FOV. With radars on both sides, Netra has 240 degree coverage.

 

[uoftotaku]

It can't be 170 degree. Phased array radars are limited to 120 degree FOV. With radars on both sides, Netra has 240 degree coverage.

The Phalcon G550 CAEW overcomes this blindspot problem by having additional antennas in the nose and tailcone of the aircraft. CABS should have followed the same principle with Netra

 

[Wisemarko]

I do not understand the concept of using large A330 as AEW&C over B737/A320. Cost of A330 itself is 3 times more. The size and range benefits are of 30%. Operating A330 costs at least 2x more. Take off and landing distance limits A330 to longer runways reducing available airports. No wonder any nation has not purchased A330 or B777 based AEW&C. Most nations can buy 2 smaller equally capable systems for cost of one A330.

The real issue is need. Since introduction of E3 on 707, the size of AEW&C platforms has continuously gone down. Miniaturization of radar and other equipment means a potent, cheaper aircraft can do the same work of a large one at much lower cost. For instance, IAI made and Boeing 707 based Phalcon sold to Chile is significantly less capable than G550 mounted Eitam. The new GlobalEye from SAAB is extremely potent yet costs less than $300 million.

In my opinion, B737 based Wedgetail is the ideal size for AEW&C. It has a long range, complete 360° coverage, crew comfort with replacement crew facility, best in class ELINT, latest AESA, potent systems, space for growth and operating cost close to G550. It has commonality with P-8 as well.

 

[Deathstar]

I do not understand the concept of using large A330 as AEW&C over B737/A320. Cost of A330 itself is 3 times more. The size and range benefits are of 30%. Operating A330 costs at least 2x more. Take off and landing distance limits A330 to longer runways reducing available airports. No wonder any nation has not purchased A330 or B777 based AEW&C. Most nations can buy 2 smaller equally capable systems for cost of one A330.

The real issue is need. Since introduction of E3 on 707, the size of AEW&C platforms has continuously gone down. Miniaturization of radar and other equipment means a potent, cheaper aircraft can do the same work of a large one at much lower cost. For instance, IAI made and Boeing 707 based Phalcon sold to Chile is significantly less capable than G550 mounted Eitam. The new GlobalEye from SAAB is extremely potent yet costs less than $300 million.

In my opinion, B737 based Wedgetail is the ideal size for AEW&C. It has a long range, complete 360° coverage, crew comfort with replacement crew facility, best in class ELINT, latest AESA, potent systems, space for growth and operating cost close to G550. It has commonality with P-8 as well.

Whats the difference between E2D and E3 sentry?????