Indian Electronics and Semiconductor manufacturing industry

[shade]

All IBM processor nodes are practically dead. They had sold their foundries to GlobalFoundries.
They just do research work and make records in First company to make 7nm, 5 nm, 3 nm and now 2nm in the world. However their nodes no company uses or licenses.
ARM, Apple, Amazon and Google are all using their own processor designs these days.

Better get some Indian company tie up with ARM and to make processor on their latest nodes/architecture.

There is RISCV also, but don't know how commercially viable it is, anyway our problem is actual fabrication for which we need a tech partner, Intel/TSMC/UMC/Samsung/GlobalFoundries/NXP/STM whoever.

 

[SavageKing456]

All IBM processor nodes are practically dead. They had sold their foundries to GlobalFoundries.
They just do research work and make records in First company to make 7nm, 5 nm, 3 nm and now 2nm in the world. However their nodes no company uses or licenses.
ARM, Apple, Amazon and Google are all using their own processor designs these days.

Better get some Indian company tie up with ARM and to make processor on their latest nodes/architecture.

Question is which indian company can do this job of mass manufacture?
L&T,reliance?

 

[shade]

Question is which indian company can do this job?
L&T,reliance?

L&T can build the plant and the necessary infrastructure.
For the day to day operations I think we will need a seperate SPV PSU to handle, or if our eminent private sector companies are doing it, they will need to raise a whole new team/department for this purpose, along with initial tech know how and help from a foreign Tech Partner.

 

[Ajax01]

Follow nano arun. The guy has good knowledge on this. Apparently UMC has put in a bid along with a dubai based fund NOV. There are some 12 odd proposal. But Government is waiting for atleast one big guy like Samsung TSMC perhaps.

 

[shade]

Follow nano arun. The guy has good knowledge on this. Apparently UMC has put in a bid along with a dubai based fund NOV. There are some 12 odd proposal. But Government is waiting for atleast one big guy like Samsung TSMC perhaps.

Sarkar is either pussy or has over dosed on that "private sector" and "free market" kool-aid, semiconductor fabs are an expensive undertaking, no private MNC will step in without assurance of heavy govt support.

 

[Ajax01]

Sarkar is either pussy or has over dosed on that "private sector" and "free market" kool-aid, semiconductor fabs are an expensive undertaking, no private MNC will step in without assurance of heavy govt support.

Well a billion dollars and large captive market. Plus other goodies like VGF/soft loans. Sarkar is in a collaborative mode. Learnt their lesson from last time. Anyway proposals are coming.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Question is which indian company can do this job of mass manufacture?
L&T,reliance?

Better question, who will buy from them?

 

[SavageKing456]

Better question, who will buy from them?

If they can expand their industry there are lot of export options.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

If they can expand their industry there are lot of export options.

Not quite true. We will face the same problem who will buy them. Like it or not electronics industry is saturated and most people get acclimatized to a platform and stick to it.

If you observe the electronics industry trend they tend to use semi-conductors designed in their host country.

Major users for semiconductor part are PRC, USA, Germany, France, EU as a whole, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea. Each of these countries have matured well developed semi-conductor industry.

 

[Lonewolf]

Not quite true. We will face the same problem who will buy them. Like it or not electronics industry is saturated and most people get acclimatized to a platform and stick to it.

If you observe the electronics industry trend they tend to use semi-conductors designed in their host country.

Few application , setup box , interface washing machine , tv , server , router , it hub equipment , electricity department equipment and all , you can have ample customer if government have favourable policy

 

[shade]

Few application , setup box , interface washing machine , tv , server , router , it hub equipment , electricity department equipment and all , you can have ample customer if government have favourable policy

Talks have to take place between sarkar and certain electronics producers to make them "confirmed buyer" for any chips produced in the fab.
China is currently in the process of manufacturing it's own DRAM chips, and it has got Xiaomi, Techno and OnePlus/OPPO/VIVO company as confirmed buyer of the DRAM coming out of this Chinese fab.

Another option is for the fab to be pure play foundry and make chips designed by world's leading companies that are already used in products, the chips can be subsidized by govt so as to add to the uptake by private companies in electronics manufacturing.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Few application , setup box , interface washing machine , tv , server , router , it hub equipment , electricity department equipment and all , you can have ample customer if government have favourable policy

The key aspect of electronics R&D is that you develop the hardware once and just keep upgrading the software. If you look into the electronics of consumer goods like washing machine, etc. you will find their controller board was designed in 90s. They just upgrade the firmware.

Government will be need to through a really big bone to force these companies change these proven electronics.

 

[shade]

From that economy thread people don't know about how chips are made from silicon.
So there is this video, about how the silicon ingot is made, a small 8cm seed perfect crystal of silicon is dipped in a vat of molten silicon and spun around slowly, very slowly being pulled out, finally after 24-48 hours you get a huge 5-6ft perfect silicon crystal with a diameter of 12 inches, 12 inches is the standard size of a silicon wafer which are cut from it.


You need a machine with a "diamond wire" or high grade steel wire in order to cut wafers from the block, later both sides of the wafer are smoothened out by some other processes( don't have much detail on this ).


Once the chips are fabricated onto the wafer, they look like the squares on the wafer in this video.

 

[shade]

ETTelecom interviews: Big steps needed to create basic infra for semiconductor manufacturing: NXP India's Sanjay Gupta - ET Telecom

Chipmaker NXP Semiconductors said that India needs to take some big steps to create the basic infrastructure for semiconductor manufacturing in the country.

telecom.economictimes.indiatimes.com

NXP is a Dutch semiconductor company, they make microcontrollers and ARM A Series based processors, but they are a small company compared to TSMC, Samsungs of the world.
Even companies like this don't seem to be enticed for the $1billion that Semiconductor PLI is providing.

Which is why a semiconductor fab here needs heavy Govt support

• Govt must provide guaranteed "pure water" supply to fab
• Govt must provide waste disposal services for fab effluents
• Govt must provide guaranteed electricity supply to fab
• Govt must acquire the land, plant those special dust reducing trees.

Ofc Govt must not give all this free, but charge the company at market rates for these services and the prepared land parcel.

I would prefer a Public-Private partnership JV model, or even a Special Purpose Vehicle PSU with a foreign company as the "Technology Partner", Ultimately Govt has to get the ball rolling.
The plant itself and the machinery may be built after consultation with the "technology partner" regarding plant layout and what machines to procure.
Employee training will also be done by technology partner.


Private sector even MNCs are pussies about investing in a fab here, and with good reason, it's big money, long term investment before it starts showing profit in a "crowded" market.

 

[SKC]

ETTelecom interviews: Big steps needed to create basic infra for semiconductor manufacturing: NXP India's Sanjay Gupta - ET Telecom

Chipmaker NXP Semiconductors said that India needs to take some big steps to create the basic infrastructure for semiconductor manufacturing in the country.

telecom.economictimes.indiatimes.com

NXP is a Dutch semiconductor company, they make microcontrollers and ARM A Series based processors, but they are a small company compared to TSMC, Samsungs of the world.
Even companies like this don't seem to be enticed for the $1billion that Semiconductor PLI is providing.

Which is why a semiconductor fab here needs heavy Govt support

• Govt must provide guaranteed "pure water" supply to fab
• Govt must provide waste disposal services for fab effluents
• Govt must provide guaranteed electricity supply to fab
• Govt must acquire the land, plant those special dust reducing trees.

Ofc Govt must not give all this free, but charge the company at market rates for these services and the prepared land parcel.

I would prefer a Public-Private partnership JV model, or even a Special Purpose Vehicle PSU with a foreign company as the "Technology Partner", Ultimately Govt has to get the ball rolling.
The plant itself and the machinery may be built after consultation with the "technology partner" regarding plant layout and what machines to procure.
Employee training will also be done by technology partner.


Private sector even MNCs are pussies about investing in a fab here, and with good reason, it's big money, long term investment before it starts showing profit in a "crowded" market.

Ya there needs to be out of the way policies for Semi Conductor plants like the policies which were made for Delhi Metro.
Other wise every era gera nathu geda will be Filing PIL against these companies and will drive them out of the country.
There needs to be a strict rule and conduct of Lathis on the people who will try to shun these companies in India.

Also, we first need to provide them with a Use case or a guaranteed buy back program where there needs to be a agreed order on their output for first few years.

 

[ezsasa]

ETTelecom interviews: Big steps needed to create basic infra for semiconductor manufacturing: NXP India's Sanjay Gupta - ET Telecom

Chipmaker NXP Semiconductors said that India needs to take some big steps to create the basic infrastructure for semiconductor manufacturing in the country.

telecom.economictimes.indiatimes.com

NXP is a Dutch semiconductor company, they make microcontrollers and ARM A Series based processors, but they are a small company compared to TSMC, Samsungs of the world.
Even companies like this don't seem to be enticed for the $1billion that Semiconductor PLI is providing.

Which is why a semiconductor fab here needs heavy Govt support

• Govt must provide guaranteed "pure water" supply to fab
• Govt must provide waste disposal services for fab effluents
• Govt must provide guaranteed electricity supply to fab
• Govt must acquire the land, plant those special dust reducing trees.

Ofc Govt must not give all this free, but charge the company at market rates for these services and the prepared land parcel.

I would prefer a Public-Private partnership JV model, or even a Special Purpose Vehicle PSU with a foreign company as the "Technology Partner", Ultimately Govt has to get the ball rolling.
The plant itself and the machinery may be built after consultation with the "technology partner" regarding plant layout and what machines to procure.
Employee training will also be done by technology partner.


Private sector even MNCs are pussies about investing in a fab here, and with good reason, it's big money, long term investment before it starts showing profit in a "crowded" market.

Over and above the points you mentioned, whoever is investing also has to worry about the negative propaganda campaigns against them from existing players.

safe to say, micro chip manufacturing is not coming to India anytime soon, saying this mostly because of the pandemic. This program has to be carefully curated with utmost care.

 

[fire starter]

Over and above the points you mentioned, whoever is investing also has to worry about the negative propaganda campaigns against them from existing players.

safe to say, micro chip manufacturing is not coming to India anytime soon, saying this mostly because of the pandemic. This program has to be carefully curated with utmost care.

By that time we should focus on upgrading SCL and promoting research in R&D institutions.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

ETTelecom interviews: Big steps needed to create basic infra for semiconductor manufacturing: NXP India's Sanjay Gupta - ET Telecom

Chipmaker NXP Semiconductors said that India needs to take some big steps to create the basic infrastructure for semiconductor manufacturing in the country.

telecom.economictimes.indiatimes.com

NXP is a Dutch semiconductor company, they make microcontrollers and ARM A Series based processors, but they are a small company compared to TSMC, Samsungs of the world.
Even companies like this don't seem to be enticed for the $1billion that Semiconductor PLI is providing.

Which is why a semiconductor fab here needs heavy Govt support

• Govt must provide guaranteed "pure water" supply to fab
• Govt must provide waste disposal services for fab effluents
• Govt must provide guaranteed electricity supply to fab
• Govt must acquire the land, plant those special dust reducing trees.

Ofc Govt must not give all this free, but charge the company at market rates for these services and the prepared land parcel.

I would prefer a Public-Private partnership JV model, or even a Special Purpose Vehicle PSU with a foreign company as the "Technology Partner", Ultimately Govt has to get the ball rolling.
The plant itself and the machinery may be built after consultation with the "technology partner" regarding plant layout and what machines to procure.
Employee training will also be done by technology partner.


Private sector even MNCs are pussies about investing in a fab here, and with good reason, it's big money, long term investment before it starts showing profit in a "crowded" market.

Let me offer you another perspective of someone who is actively planning trying to set up fab.

The biggest problem of setting up a fab in India is to whom you will offer your services to or in other words who will be your customer.

In India electronics industry is very poor close to non-existent to the question arises who will give you order and how will you make money. In India the electronic industry is dominated by traders.

You call private players pussies but goal of any business is to make money and fabs in India seems like a risky investment and low return of investment.

The scale of operations of TSMC or Samsungs is so high that they can do what they do.

Your points saw the bellow points but they are completely unfounded.

If infrastructure is good enough for pharmaceutical companies, its good enough for semiconductor fabs.

Which is why a semiconductor fab here needs heavy Govt support

• Govt must provide guaranteed "pure water" supply to fab
• Govt must provide waste disposal services for fab effluents
• Govt must provide guaranteed electricity supply to fab
• Govt must acquire the land, plant those special dust reducing trees.

• Govt must provide guaranteed "pure water" supply to fab -> Their is no such thing as Pure Water. Every factory has a water purification system. Couple of complete systems provider are present in India.
• Govt must provide waste disposal services for fab effluents -> Not needed. Private waste disposal services are available in India.
• Govt must provide guaranteed electricity supply to fab -> Nowadays power is stable for industrial users and all factories have couple of backup generators.
• Govt must acquire the land, plant those special dust reducing trees ->Land is very costly. As for dust it is totally a non-issue. I don't know if you have been any modern factories , they tend to be dust and /or air proof. Dust is a non-issue with modern HVAC.

Their is issue of raw material (certain chemicals) which are controlled by select few countries. Initially skilled labor is also an issue.

Companies prefer to have fabs in countries that like USA, ROC, PRC, SK or Germany where either the consumption is high or have enormous export potential thus having great RoI.

 

[Ajax01]

Govt is dillydalling. According to Arun Mamphazy Govt has 12 proposals already instead of approving them. They are coming up with a new plan. They want the big shots like TSMC and Samsung. They are too big a fish for us right now.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Govt is dillydalling. According to Arun Mamphazy Govt has 12 proposals already instead of approving them. They are coming up with a new plan. They want the big shots like TSMC and Samsung. They are too big a fish for us right now.

That is because small scale fabs are not economically viable. Any developed fab must be self sustaining and not dependent on government funding after initial setup.