Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[pmaitra]

Not really and even if that is so, their quality will be questionable, because of their loyalties for instance. In this specific case, Indian crew and generals are of superior quality(if not of superior cost too). And also pathetic attempt to compare import of goods with Import of men. You are a mod now and you should desist from such silly comparisons, just saying

Russian generals are loyal to Russian made tanks. So, getting generals from Russia wouldn't make any difference. I think @sayareakd Sir hit the nail in the head.

 

[pmaitra]

DGMF know every thing but let the designer tell them what they know about and what all have they catered for in their design.

If he knew, he'd have put it in the RFI.

After all they are going to charge huge money for that. If Mahindra thinks or TATA think they can produce a design let the cater for all those things.

Ok, the point is not who makes the tank. The point is the DGFM knowing what he wants.

If I want a coat and tell a designer the length, width, height colour, pattern, borders etc of my coat what more can he design? In that case I have already designed my coat.

Ok, don't tell him length, width, height, and when you get this, please wear it.

RFI is only a request for information and DGMF would like to know that those who are interested know things about Indian requirements and terrain rather than DGMF spoon feeding them..

Yeah, I am eagerly waiting for the tank makers around to world to line up in front of the DGFM's durbar, briging tributes from across the seven seas, in the hope he will accept their design.

Why should DGMF be specific at Design Compaction stage ?

There is no question of design compaction. He could have specified the bridges, because the bridges already exist and design has to conform to it. He could have specified the other contemporary tanks, because the other contemporary tanks already exist, and the design has to conform to it. We don't need to wait for the GSQR or RFP for these bits of information.

When DGMF specifies a condition that become binding and an exit clause for the responding companies / firms . So why should DGMF say anything more than say terrain.?

The DGFM should take responsibility commensurate to the position he is holding. He is not a chaiwalla selling tea in a tea stall. If he cannot do his job properly, we can find others to replace him. You can yell at the top of your lungs "the DGFM is not your servant," like you said to someone, but that does not help his cause.

Why should he say he wants a shit pot inside the tank.. let designer offer it ... Were the missile scintists told India wants a missile of 100 km range but they offered it as a design? Now it is for the user to see their requirements and accept or say no to that !!.?

It is necessary to avoid future mud-slinging and blame-shifting.

What is random there, a tank, Meduim Tank ( which every one in the world except @Kunal understands). the terrain, existing infrastructures. mobility, fire power and protection at par with contemporary MBTs - I do not understand what is random in that?

There is nothing random in this. It is just that you don't know. Someone asked you a question, and you asked him to find it out himself. Just like the RFI.

@Bhadra just tell me what must be weight of a medium weight tank (in tons)? And any tank belongs to a medium weight category

Find out what the weight of contemporary ( mind you I say contemporary) light tank sya strykers or BMP mponted plateforms.
Then find out what is the weight of Contemporary heavy weight tanks.. draw a mean and you can guess the weight..

It is RFI and not RFP so why should any one specify numbers,

Already explained. There are quite a few things that can be specified and need not wait for the RFP.

Enough has been said about what is required including the front or back that fits the existing rolling stock, tank trailers, bridges and existing breaching equipment which breach minefields to a size. The tank designer must know all these or stand aside.,

One word answer: Wrong.

Phir Kahe ke paise lega. Hain Ji ??

Aur paisa aa bhi gaya, to gayega kidhar? Nizhnyi Tagil? Samajh me aye, to hi jawaab dena.

A car designer is asked to design a car which fits my garage.

You have several garages all across the Indo-Pak border, and you don't know how big your garage is each. The job of a tank designer is not to carry out geographical surveys.

 

[Bhadra]

@pmaitra

I must point out that you are talking in thin air and shouting at DGMF when every thing is so clear in RFI which says :

" The Indian Army is planning to design and develop a new generation, state-of-the-art combat vehicle platform for populating its Armoured Fighting Vehicle fleet in the coming decade. This vehicle, which will be called the Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV), will form
the base platform for the Main Battle Tank which is planned to replace the existing T-72 tanks in the Armoured Corps. It is also planned to subsequently develop other need-based variants on this platform."

Can anything be clearer than that. every thing including intent and numbers have been indicated.

Is it a secret that India operates about 2,414 numbers of T-72 tanks :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_main_battle_tanks_by_country

Take other T-72 platforms and this number could jump to 3000. This is what is requirement in the coming decade.

Some of you fellows jump the gun without any application of mind and instinctly start shouting and name calling.

That is why I call you useless Rudali Brigade and you hold "Shyapa"... at slightest pretext.

So far "Modular" "medium" "contemporary MBT" is concerned - you righty start shouting Armata but conveniently forget Markava ... the design philosophy of Armata is half Markava - totally western.

http://idrw.org/russian-t-14-armata-tank-is-impressive-but-will-not-be-game-changer-for-india/

Since Russians seems to be moving away from their basic T-72 plateforms and all new plateforms are likely to be based on Armata, is it wise for Indians to keep that design philosophy near their chest rather than move forward and look for a new design.....

Agar design ki RFI se itani phat rahi hai to aage kya hoga ? @ersakhtivel has already invoked SA to RM .. what else .. start abusing DGMF ... defamation campign .. disinformation campaign ... victimhood ... typical Indian crabs we are !

RFI has been drafted and presented in a typical military style - Concise, to the point, short, crisp and containing everything - Tum parana na jano to DGMF ki kya Galati ...

It may take ages for some of you to draft such a document -- learn something from it rather than cry tons of water....

Smilies have disabled for me !! So much of tyranny ..... Ha Ha Ha ...

 

[Bhadra]

Declaration:

I am not a tank man that is - not from Mud Corps : my interest in tanks is but professional and I am sufficiently trained to understand those machines well including their employment from troop to formation and strategic level.

I have never worked in / for DGMF - however, sufficiently know how dedicated and good they are, towards their profession and country.

I do not work for any lobby - the temerity @Kunal had to accuse me with. Nothing better expected from him as he must be preparing for his retirement plans.

I have sufficient exposure to DRDO to understand their standards, culture and work ethos. I am also one of them who kept standing under DRDO banana tree for a banana to fall for decades ( decades). But the banana seemed to be elusive. I am not one of those whom @pmaitra would like to describe disdainfully as mercenary or die in train types or Rum Bum and Mouthorgan .... Na tum bache na ham ...

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

And light. Can cross even bamboo bridges, and Lakshman Jhula. The DGFM would be delighted.

and great cross river record except in flood......

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Bhadra so fmbt will weigh 54-58 tons ...... How a 50 ton bridge will carry it?

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Kunal Biswas sir .... I have read it somewhere in your post about carrying a 70 ton tank by 40 ton bridge..... You posted it some 6 month ago.

 

[Khagesh]

Here are three RFIs issued by IA:

1) FRCV - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/445/FRCV RFI.pdf

2) RECONNAISSANCE & SURVEILLANCE (RSH) HELICOPTERS - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/407/Avn290914.pdf.

3) LIGHT BULLET PROOF VEHICLE (LBPV) - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/435/RFI LBPV1.pdf

Read at leisure and decide for yourself the differences in the drafting of these.


And try to find the answer for the following question:

• If the IA can ask for detailed information in 2 cases does it not fall on the IA to tell in detail what they are looking for?

 

[Bhadra]

and great cross river record except in flood......

Great Maratha Ji ...it be a flood like India faced when Alexander crossed the river ...

Then tell me how do you go there : Mount horses like Alexander !!

And how does one go here : Flying ...

 

[Bhadra]

Here are three RFIs issued by IA:

1) FRCV - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/445/FRCV RFI.pdf

2) RECONNAISSANCE & SURVEILLANCE (RSH) HELICOPTERS - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/407/Avn290914.pdf.

3) LIGHT BULLET PROOF VEHICLE (LBPV) - http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/435/RFI LBPV1.pdf

Read at leisure and decide for yourself the differences in the drafting of these.

So drafting is the issue ? Is it ?? Walk across to DGMF and teach them a thing or two ... "Shyapa"...

 

[Khagesh]

And its not like only the IA has to face a difficult terrain/battlefield. The whole world faces these issues but nobody writes english like they did in FRCV-RFI.

 

[Khagesh]

You probably missed the edit.

Here again for your benefit:
If the IA can ask for detailed information in 2 cases does it not fall on the IA to tell in detail what they are looking for?

Even if DGMF is looking for a Lego Set MBT, he should say so clearly.

 

[Mad Indian]

Russian generals are loyal to Russian made tanks. So, getting generals from Russia wouldn't make any difference. I think @sayareakd Sir hit the nail in the head.

And this why people like @p2prada and @Decklander have left. Mods trolling with stupid posts is what this forum has been reduced to.

Unlike generals from Russia, tanks and equipments have no loyalties. Duh?!?! An ak 47 is going to shoot bullets no matter who presses the button to fire. I must be a genius to know this difference between equipment with no loyalties and men with loyalties

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Great Maratha Ji ...it be a flood like India faced when Alexander crossed the river ...

Then tell me how do you go there : Mount horses like Alexander !!

And how does one go here : Flying ...

@ersakthivel already posted about arjun crossing the ravi river when t90 and 72 failed to cross it

 

[Khagesh]

What is this stance in arguments - Decklander and P2Prada left........... So what.......

How does that embellish or prove the truth of anybodies stance or disprove that of the opponents.

All that is required after making this argument is Nirupa Roy biting her lower lip in pain with Tiiiyyyyaaaoooonnnn in the back ground.

 

[Mad Indian]

What is this stance in arguments - Decklander and P2Prada left........... So what.......

How does that embellish or prove the truth of anybodies stance or disprove that of the opponents.

Who said anything about that? Don't create strawmans. It just shows the quality of the forum when mods engage in such silly comparisons in such serious threads.

 

[Mad Indian]

@ersakthivel already posted about arjun crossing the ravi river when t90 and 72 failed to cross it

Dude, logistics involve more than a few bridges . iirc , most of the logistics in the IA is for t 72s and 90s. At least thats the reason given by army personnel here for not inducting Arjun in significant numbers

 

[Mad Indian]

Sun is very hot with temperatures as high as 4million K at its core. And so it is proved that this thread is full of junk and useless army bashing by people with no qualification at all in this matter

PS: this is how you create strawmans and silly non sequitors and justify an argument

 

[Khagesh]

Arjun BLT and BFAT wagons are already there as a solution. Logistics is s bull reason. They just want to avoid giving orders.

If the DGMF was really that intent on sticking to these 41 to 47 ton tanks then he could have written it as such. Why the obfuscation with 'Medium'.

If IA was really so intent on these lighter tanks then why did they give out a requirement for a 4 crew Arjun. What that too an english essay writing competition?

In any case these lighter tanks do not give enough protection. Then you add more protection and these too begin to baloon in weight. On top of that the Arjun Catapults and the Self propelled arty will again require new logistical measures, unless you want a SPGH with less than 20 rounds (even that may be doubtful).

With the newer Anti armour weapons coming into vogue these smaller tanks despite addon protection, will become a major source of worries. Even the lowly terrorists have means to take out these tanks now. Well trained and funded armies are only going to be that much more difficult to counter. IA too has to move with times. If you desire adequate protection with superior fire power then you have to be willing to take bigger tanks.

 

[su35]

Do India Really Need Medium tank project? It is better to go with New anti tank missile than buying New tank