Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[charlie]

well the Army people should lead the DRDO projects and that will solve almost 90% of the issues. This happens almost everywhere but not in India, well apart from Indian Navy.

 

[pmaitra]

Is India's Main Battle Tank Finally Doomed?
The Indian Army may be finally giving up on the indigenously developed Arjun main battle tank.

By Franz-Stefan Gady

Excerpts:

Additionally, the RFI notes that the FRCV “should be in the ‘Medium Tank’ category” and should “match contemporary MBTs in engagement ranges, all weather day/night fighting capability, depth of penetration and variety of ammunition.” The Indian Army wants the new FRCV ready for induction by 2025-27 – a deadline that almost certainly will have to be extended given India’s defense procurement track record.

The recent RFI could also very well ring the final death-knell for India’s indigenously developed third generation Arjun MK-I main battle tank – a poorly designed vehicle (e.g., too much heavy armor versus too little horsepower) that encountered repeated delays due to a flawed procurement and testing process. Almost eighty percent of the 124-strong Arjun MK-I tank force is currently grounded due to more than 90 technical issues.

India has been working on an improved version of the Arjun, the MK-II, which has done very well in comparative trials with license-built Russian tanks such as the T-90M. It displays more than 93 improvements over the older version and contains 60 percent locally manufactured components. However, a decision to indigenously develop a new anti-tank missile to be fitted onto the MK-II will, in all likelihood, delay the induction of the upgraded platform.

 

[Bhadra]

The RFI is is an apt demonstration of the incompetence of those that have prepared the RFI. Have you been reading the thread at all? They don't even know what kind of bridges this new tank is supposed to operate on. Of course they have no experience, or else, they would have given hard numbers. Even people in DFI can take a reasonable guess as to the caliber, but the RFI is conveniently missing that as well. I have already listed the sheer vagueness of this pathetic excuse of an RFI, but hey, if you don't want to take your head out of the sand, don't let me persuade you to do otherwise.

@pmaitra
You are an old hog on the forum and moderator too. Hence I expect you to a little more responsible. It appears you have not read the RFI which spells :

" ... The FRCV should be in the `Medium Tank’ category whose physical dimensions should facilitate transportability over existing terrain, in-service military bridges and major civilian infrastructure (including bridges) in the border areas (on either side of the Western border)."

Is not that enough for you my dear -

Physical dimensions - I hope you understand what it means? Weight, height, width, leangth etc . - this has effect on transportation and carriage such as it should not require ODC etc. Other effects of physical dimension are in terms of in service tank trailers, railways l rolling stock, civilian carriers etc which designers must keep in mind while offering "physical dimensions" .. the tank should not require ODC. Other meanings, though extended, would also mean (perhaps) air portability.

Existing Terrain - I hope DRDO people know what are characteristics of existing terrain where tanks can be asked to operate and what all parameters like ground / terrain friction, ground pressures etc will be required to in the tanks, tracks, wheels, engines, suspension etc to overcome that. It also clearly means that tanks would be required to clear water bodies, marshy areas and snowy high altitude mountain areas. The existing terrain also includes the amphibious dimension since India has such a huge cost line and Island territory and air portability ( air is included in existing terrain). Ha Ha Ha.....

In Service military bridges : @pmaitra should educate the forum on this as to what is meaning of "in service bridges", what is their classification like 40 ton bridges, 50 ton bridges, 70 ton bridges ? Their span like 15 m, 20 m and 50 m, etc and what should be width of the tank to go over those? This is a clear cut condition that the tank should not go beyond the present bridge capability in terms of dimensions and the weight class (like the great Arjun did ).

major civilian infrastructure (including bridges) in the border areas: Lo! what more than this can be clarified that the tank designer must keep in mind the road and rail infrastructure classifications and raod / rail bridge classifications specially in the border areas in mind. Border areas would specifically mean the Bridge classifications existing on Canals, obstacles systems and water bodies/ dry ditches.

On either side of the Western border. Mogambo Khush huwa. Hail Mugambo. Look they want the tank the cross the border too and are asking the designer to keep all parameters of terrain on other side of the border in mind lest some Chatak DRDO fellow points out that was not specified. They want the tanks to do river crossing also and are telling the designer clearly - other side of the Western border ..!

I fail to understand what has happened to these fanboys - they have gone blind in their rage and do not even care to read the RFI - well done RFI boy !!

DRDO fan boys must desist from cultivating psychopathic dislike towards armed forces and learn to appreciate that both organisation must work in unison for defence of India. Users can not be treated with such disdain. DFI culture has not helped much in appreciating each others point of view.

If there not many service member on DFI, it does not mean people of DRDO gang up and turn themselves into a union.

Who told you domestic products are junk? What domestic junk are you talking about? If I am in a tank in the hot desert of Rajasthan, I'd rather be in domestically made Arjun than be in the imported T-90 whose optics won't work in the scorching heat of the desert of Rajasthan.

Oh wait, the optics will now work, after DRDO installed those "junk" air conditioners and French Catherines.

Do you know every person in the army? My colleague, originally from Roorkee, just this afternoon, told me that he had the privilege of riding the Arjun tank because his dad, now retired, was in the Armoured Corps. He had only good things to say about it, after I prodded him to speak about it. No, I don't have a link for this either. Take it or leave it. Not everyone in the army has the same opinion.

Gibberish and junk !

And please ignore that example of iron. The metaphor is lost on you.

That was lost before it was born..

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra
You are an old hog on the forum and moderator too. Hence I expect you to a little more responsible. It appears you have not read the RFI which spells :

" ... The FRCV should be in the `Medium Tank’ category whose physical dimensions should facilitate transportability over existing terrain, in-service military bridges and major civilian infrastructure (including bridges) in the border areas (on either side of the Western border)."

Is not that enough for you my dear -

So, the DGMF does not know these things? For God sake, he is the Director General of Mechanized Forces. What part of "mechanized" do you not understand? If he and his assistants cannot provide the numbers clearly defining the bridges at least on the Indian side and include it in the RFI, what exactly is he doing in the post of the DGMF?

Physical dimensions - I hope you understand what it means? Weight, height, width, leangth etc . - this has effect on transportation and carriage such as it should not require ODC etc. Other effects of physical dimension are in terms of in service tank trailers, railways l rolling stock, civilian carriers etc which designers must keep in mind while offering "physical dimensions" .. the tank should not require ODC. Other meanings, though extended, would also mean (perhaps) air portability.

Let the designers be informed adequately. July 31st is the day when companies are expected to respond by. Let us see what happens.

Existing Terrain - I hope DRDO people know what are characteristics of existing terrain where tanks can be asked to operate and what all parameters like ground / terrain friction, ground pressures etc will be required to in the tanks, tracks, wheels, engines, suspension etc to overcome that. It also clearly means that tanks would be required to clear water bodies, marshy areas and snowy high altitude mountain areas. The existing terrain also includes the amphibious dimension since India has such a huge cost line and Island territory and air portability ( air is included in existing terrain). Ha Ha Ha.....

Why should you hope DRDO (or any other tank maker, e.g. UVZ) will read someone's mind? Should DRDO assume that this tank is going to be used in Zojilla Pass, just because we have used tanks there? What exactly is stopping these people who prepared the RFI from explicitly mentioning what they want in numerical terms?

You cannot just randomly build something and hope it works. Similarly, you cannot randomly assume the circumstances and build something, and hope it suits. You first understand the circumstances, and then engineer a solution. That is why it is called engineering, and not astrology.

In Service military bridges : @pmaitra should educate the forum on this as to what is meaning of "in service bridges", what is their classification like 40 ton bridges, 50 ton bridges, 70 ton bridges ? Their span like 15 m, 20 m and 50 m, etc and what should be width of the tank to go over those? This is a clear cut condition that the tank should not go beyond the present bridge capability in terms of dimensions and the weight class (like the great Arjun did ).

Why don't you tell us? You are the one who is the advocate for the entity that is presenting the requirement. I have listed several points. You give us the numbers followed by the units.

major civilian infrastructure (including bridges) in the border areas: Lo! what more than this can be clarified that the tank designer must keep in mind the road and rail infrastructure classifications and raod / rail bridge classifications specially in the border areas in mind. Border areas would specifically mean the Bridge classifications existing on Canals, obstacles systems and water bodies/ dry ditches.

The requirement should come from the Army. The tank designer is not obligated to keep these things in mind if they are not specified in the request. I work in the industry too. I also work with requirements. Many people in the forum do. We rarely come across customers who are clueless about what they want. I have come across a few. We don't build solutions when the customer is incapable of telling us what he wants.

Inane comments like, "The font should be large," doesn't cut it. We ask the customer to specify the Font Size. No beating around the bush.

On either side of the Western border. Mogambo Khush huwa. Hail Mugambo. Look they want the tank the cross the border too and are asking the designer to keep all parameters of terrain on other side of the border in mind lest some Chatak DRDO fellow points out that was not specified. They want the tanks to do river crossing also and are telling the designer clearly - other side of the Western border ..!

This is not some Amrish Puri, Anil Kapoor, Sridevi Bollywood movie we are discussing here.

They want the tank to do river crossings? Really? The RFI does not mention any of the following words: river, water, amphibious. Please read the RFI.

I am sharing the link, the third time in this thread, in the hope you would at least read it once: http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/445/FRCV RFI.pdf

I fail to understand what has happened to these fanboys - they have blind in their arge and do not even read the RFI - well done RFI boy !!

I have read the RFI. Subjective. Vague. Clueless. Irresponsible. What more do you want?

Gibberish and junk !

Every member is free to verify and corroborate what I have written. You should try that too.

That was lost before it was born..

Yeah, it is recommended you refrain from worrying about that comment about specific gravity.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You are old hog on the forum and a troll too, Hence i expect this behavior from you, It appears you are mixing RFI and RFP for your own convince, Their is nothing call Medium category perhaps for some lobby pushing guy ..


Lets clear some air >> All infrastructure are present in service of Army engineers to take massive BM-30 to Arjun to cross rivers and canals of 50ms to 150ms, Get educated, Not RFI numb head its RFP ..

Border world infrastructure cannot handle T-72, And here some disillusion talks abt taking 52 to 68 tons ..

==========================


Your similes only shows your insecurity ..

You are an old hog on the forum and moderator too. Hence I expect you to a little more responsible. It appears you have not read the RFI which spells :

" ... The FRCV should be in the `Medium Tank’ category whose physical dimensions should facilitate transportability over existing terrain, in-service military bridges and major civilian infrastructure (including bridges) in the border areas (on either side of the Western border)."

Is not that enough for you my dear -

Physical dimensions - I hope you understand what it means? Weight, height, width, leangth etc . - this has effect on transportation and carriage such as it should not require ODC etc. Other effects of physical dimension are in terms of in service tank trailers, railways l rolling stock, civilian carriers etc which designers must keep in mind while offering "physical dimensions" .. the tank should not require ODC. Other meanings, though extended, would also mean (perhaps) air portability.

Existing Terrain - I hope DRDO people know what are characteristics of existing terrain where tanks can be asked to operate and what all parameters like ground / terrain friction, ground pressures etc will be required to in the tanks, tracks, wheels, engines, suspension etc to overcome that. It also clearly means that tanks would be required to clear water bodies, marshy areas and snowy high altitude mountain areas. The existing terrain also includes the amphibious dimension since India has such a huge cost line and Island territory and air portability ( air is included in existing terrain). Ha Ha Ha.....

In Service military bridges : @pmaitra should educate the forum on this as to what is meaning of "in service bridges", what is their classification like 40 ton bridges, 50 ton bridges, 70 ton bridges ? Their span like 15 m, 20 m and 50 m, etc and what should be width of the tank to go over those? This is a clear cut condition that the tank should not go beyond the present bridge capability in terms of dimensions and the weight class (like the great Arjun did ).

major civilian infrastructure (including bridges) in the border areas: Lo! what more than this can be clarified that the tank designer must keep in mind the road and rail infrastructure classifications and raod / rail bridge classifications specially in the border areas in mind. Border areas would specifically mean the Bridge classifications existing on Canals, obstacles systems and water bodies/ dry ditches.

On either side of the Western border. Mogambo Khush huwa. Hail Mugambo. Look they want the tank the cross the border too and are asking the designer to keep all parameters of terrain on other side of the border in mind lest some Chatak DRDO fellow points out that was not specified. They want the tanks to do river crossing also and are telling the designer clearly - other side of the Western border ..!

I fail to understand what has happened to these fanboys - they have gone blind in their rage and do not even care to read the RFI - well done RFI boy !!

DRDO fan boys must desist from cultivating psychopathic dislike towards armed forces and learn to appreciate that both organisation must work in unison for defence of India. Users can not be treated with such disdain. DFI culture has not helped much in appreciating each others point of view.

If there not many service member on DFI, it does not mean people of DRDO gang up and turn themselves into a union.



Gibberish and junk !



That was lost before it was born..

 

[sayareakd]

Present RFI as DM said out of comic book.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, This is what FMBT ready for prototyping and now someone is screaming hard for Russia ..

Present RFI as DM said out of comic book.

 

[tharun]

Sir, This is what FMBT ready for prototyping and now someone is screaming hard for Russia ..

Sir can u provide me the pdf of this book

 

[sayareakd]

Sir, This is what FMBT ready for prototyping and now someone is screaming hard for Russia ..

kunal sir this is DRDO concept. But DGMF dont want Arjun FMBT.

 

[ersakthivel]

Is India's Main Battle Tank Finally Doomed?
The Indian Army may be finally giving up on the indigenously developed Arjun main battle tank.

By Franz-Stefan Gady

Excerpts:

This is typical eggspurt speak.

Arjun has a decent power to weight ratio compared to most of contemporary tanks.
The ethics of internatioal arms bazzar matches the world's oldest profession!!!

The groundings are due to low order quantity which is presenting logistics problems of its own. In the same way IAF was found out to be grounding most of the Su-30 MKI fleet to poor stock quantity.

Also Arjun has a lower height profile which was asked by IA in particular considering the survival aspects in indian terrain of operation. Now because armata is taller this condition has also been relaxed!!!

 

[ersakthivel]

@pmaitra
You are an old hog on the forum and moderator too. Hence I expect you to a little more responsible. It appears you have not read the RFI which spells :

" ... The FRCV should be in the `Medium Tank’ category whose physical dimensions should facilitate transportability over existing terrain, in-service military bridges and major civilian infrastructure (including bridges) in the border areas (on either side of the Western border)."

Is not that enough for you my dear -

Physical dimensions - I hope you understand what it means? Weight, height, width, leangth etc . - this has effect on transportation and carriage such as it should not require ODC etc. Other effects of physical dimension are in terms of in service tank trailers, railways l rolling stock, civilian carriers etc which designers must keep in mind while offering "physical dimensions" .. the tank should not require ODC. Other meanings, though extended, would also mean (perhaps) air portability.

Existing Terrain - I hope DRDO people know what are characteristics of existing terrain where tanks can be asked to operate and what all parameters like ground / terrain friction, ground pressures etc will be required to in the tanks, tracks, wheels, engines, suspension etc to overcome that. It also clearly means that tanks would be required to clear water bodies, marshy areas and snowy high altitude mountain areas. The existing terrain also includes the amphibious dimension since India has such a huge cost line and Island territory and air portability ( air is included in existing terrain). Ha Ha Ha.....

In Service military bridges : @pmaitra should educate the forum on this as to what is meaning of "in service bridges", what is their classification like 40 ton bridges, 50 ton bridges, 70 ton bridges ? Their span like 15 m, 20 m and 50 m, etc and what should be width of the tank to go over those? This is a clear cut condition that the tank should not go beyond the present bridge capability in terms of dimensions and the weight class (like the great Arjun did ).

major civilian infrastructure (including bridges) in the border areas: Lo! what more than this can be clarified that the tank designer must keep in mind the road and rail infrastructure classifications and raod / rail bridge classifications specially in the border areas in mind. Border areas would specifically mean the Bridge classifications existing on Canals, obstacles systems and water bodies/ dry ditches.

On either side of the Western border. Mogambo Khush huwa. Hail Mugambo. Look they want the tank the cross the border too and are asking the designer to keep all parameters of terrain on other side of the border in mind lest some Chatak DRDO fellow points out that was not specified. They want the tanks to do river crossing also and are telling the designer clearly - other side of the Western border ..!

I fail to understand what has happened to these fanboys - they have gone blind in their rage and do not even care to read the RFI - well done RFI boy !!

DRDO fan boys must desist from cultivating psychopathic dislike towards armed forces and learn to appreciate that both organisation must work in unison for defence of India. Users can not be treated with such disdain. DFI culture has not helped much in appreciating each others point of view.

If there not many service member on DFI, it does not mean people of DRDO gang up and turn themselves into a union.



Gibberish and junk !



That was lost before it was born..

60 ton Arjun crosses the ravi at lassian which was marked non tankable in IA maps(, because of the higher ground pressure per square inch of T-72 and T-90 tanks, IA was unable to get T-90 and T-72 to cross them, but Arjun with lower ground pressure per sq inch crosses those areas with ease )

SO IA specified what is the ground pressure per square inch needed by Arjun in indian terrain to avoid the shortfalls of T series tanks.

And CVRDE followed that and provided a larger tank which exerts lower ground pressure.

Also IA is standardizing on 70 ton bridging equipment.

SO weight of Arjun is a non issue as far as terrain of operation and logistics of IA is concerned.

As for the old bridge era 40 ton bridges on border areas T-90 and Armata too can not cross them with out bridging equipment.

 

[Bhadra]

So, the DGMF does not know these things? For God sake, he is the Director General of Mechanized Forces. What part of "mechanized" do you not understand? If he and his assistants cannot provide the numbers clearly defining the bridges at least on the Indian side and include it in the RFI, what exactly is he doing in the post of the DGMF?

DGMF know every thing but let the designer tell them what they know about and what all have they catered for in their design. After all they are going to charge huge money for that. If Mahindra thinks or TATA think they can produce a design let the cater for all those things.

If I want a coat and tell a designer the length, width, height colour, pattern, borders etc of my coat what more can he design? In that case I have already designed my coat.

"Design involves problem-solving and creativity. In contrast, production involves a routine or pre-planned process. A design may also be a mere plan that does not include a production or engineering processes although a working knowledge of such processes is usually expected of designers."

" A designer is a business professional who develops solutions to commercial needs that require the balancing of technical, commercial, human and aesthetic requirements.

A designer can be said to be both technician and artist.

A designer plans things for manufacture or construction. The difference between a designer and a craftsperson or artist is that designers usually develop things that have requirements set by others and will ultimately be produced by others."

So by now you DODO mind and intelligence should understand what a design is all about.

Let the designers be informed adequately. July 31st is the day when companies are expected to respond by. Let us see what happens.

So it is advantage DODOs who know every thing and better than others and can put up their design of a tank on Mars... Ha Ha Ha ..

Why should you hope DRDO (or any other tank maker, e.g. UVZ) will read someone's mind? Should DRDO assume that this tank is going to be used in Zojilla Pass, just because we have used tanks there? What exactly is stopping these people who prepared the RFI from explicitly mentioning what they want in numerical terms?

RFI is only a request for information and DGMF would like to know that those who are interested know things about Indian requirements and terrain rather than DGMF spoon feeding them. Then only will they be able to offer a good design ... here also it is advantage DODOs..

Why should DGMF be specific at Design Compaction stage ?

When DGMF specifies a condition that become binding and an exit clause for the responding companies / firms . So why should DGMF say anything more than say terrain. Why should he say he wants a shit pot inside the tank.. let designer offer it ... Were the missile scintists told India wants a missile of 100 km range but they offered it as a design? Now it is for the user to see their requirements and accept or say no to that !!

You cannot just randomly build something and hope it works. Similarly, you cannot randomly assume the circumstances and build something, and hope it suits. You first understand the circumstances, and then engineer a solution. That is why it is called engineering, and not astrology.

What is random there, a tank, Meduim Tank ( which every one in the world except @Kunal understands). the terrain, existing infrastructures. mobility, fire power and protection at par with contemporary MBTs - I do not understand what is random in that?

Why don't you tell us? You are the one who is the advocate for the entity that is presenting the requirement. I have listed several points. You give us the numbers followed by the units. {\

It is RFI and not RFP so why should any one specify numbers, production process, TOT, Cost and Time Lines. It is simply RFI for a design competition. It is your DODO mind working for (Arjun) numbers .. get out of it.. the propaganda ( and a communist spotted) kind of thing which a member used shamelessly in another thread.

The requirement should come from the Army. The tank designer is not obligated to keep these things in mind if they are not specified in the request. I work in the industry too. I also work with requirements. Many people in the forum do. We rarely come across customers who are clueless about what they want. I have come across a few. We don't build solutions when the customer is incapable of telling us what he wants.

Enough has been said about what is required including the front or back that fits the existing rolling stock, tank trailers, bridges and existing breaching equipment which breach minefields to a size. The tank designer must know all these or stand aside.

Phir Kahe ke paise lega. Hain Ji ??

A car designer is asked to design a car which fits my garage. That designer will bloody well come and know my garage, know its approach, dimensions obstacles, turnings, height, width and length. It is so simple. If I were to know every thing then I would go to market and find a Car that fits my requirement rather than going to a designer and dish out my money to him.

Inane comments like, "The font should be large," doesn't cut it. We ask the customer to specify the Font Size. No beating around the bush.

This is not some Amrish Puri, Anil Kapoor, Sridevi Bollywood movie we are discussing here.

Mogambo phir khush huwa ... Mogambo phit khush huwa..

They want the tank to do river crossings? Really? The RFI does not mention any of the following words: river, water, amphibious. Please read the RFI.

Oh! My good old friend @pmaitra, you really need a lesson on what is terrain ??

I am sharing the link, the third time in this thread, in the hope you would at least read it once: http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/445/FRCV RFI.pdf

I have read the RFI. Subjective. Vague. Clueless. Irresponsible. What more do you want?

RFI is not RFP .. and there is nothing vague about it .. let us see RFI response from Armata .. that is what you all DODOs are shit scared of..

Every member is free to verify and corroborate what I have written. You should try that too.

No voting please. I feel and know I am alone here least of all being a minority.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

@Bhadra just tell me what must be weight of a medium weight tank (in tons)? And any tank belongs to a medium weight category

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra just tell me what must be weight of a medium weight tank (in tons)? And any tank belongs to a medium weight category

Find out what the weight of contemporary ( mind you I say contemporary) light tank sya strykers or BMP mponted plateforms.
Then find out what is the weight of Contemporary heavy weight tanks.. draw a mean and you can guess the weight..

"
There was not a consistent line distinguishing heavy and medium tanks. The line was drawn by each country's army according to its needs; very frequently the threshold was based on the weight sustainable by the country's most common bridges or by railroad loading limits."..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_tank


I hope that answers youe question...

Secondly Tank is not only a weapon platform but a complex weapon system which means you need vehicles, trailers, rail, road, aircraft, bridges, mine breaching equipment, the trawlers, the guns, the ARV, supporting vehicles, tracks and treads as per weight classifications in order and in service to support that behemoth. It is a network of money suckers. One needs thousand of things to support a tank.

So great Maratha Ji tell me what should a medium tank ??

 

[sayareakd]

Won't it be cheap to get generals, tanks and crew from Russia?

 

[Mad Indian]

Very good video. Dint know where else to post it.....

 

[Mad Indian]

Won't it be cheap to get generals, tanks and crew from Russia?

Not really and even if that is so, their quality will be questionable, because of their loyalties for instance. In this specific case, Indian crew and generals are of superior quality(if not of superior cost too). And also pathetic attempt to compare import of goods with Import of men. You are a mod now and you should desist from such silly comparisons, just saying

 

[Shaitan]

Sir, This is what FMBT ready for prototyping and now someone is screaming hard for Russia ..

Only a concept, not really for prototyping.

 

[jouni]

In the spirit of T-34, high mobility and cheap. Also easy to use and ecological.

 

[pmaitra]

In the spirit of T-34, high mobility and cheap. Also easy to use and ecological.

And light. Can cross even bamboo bridges, and Lakshman Jhula. The DGFM would be delighted.