Indian Army T- 90 (Bhishma) and T- 72 (M-1) Tanks

[FalconSlayers]

AFAIK we operate the 'monkey' models, read thinner armour ones. How come ours are superior to the Russian ones?
If we added armour to it then it came at the cost of mobility. The so called kanchan armour thing is it real??

Monkey model strategy was of soviet Russia, they can’t do it now as user trials will expose them and they won’t be able to sell anything and majority of T-90S are made in India.

 

[t 90s]

AFAIK we operate the 'monkey' models, read thinner armour ones. How come ours are superior to the Russian ones?
If we added armour to it then it came at the cost of mobility. The so called kanchan armour thing is it real??

We operate monkey model of T 72 variant. T 90S on the other hand is a good tank. What we need is an upgrade ( ammo, gun+reliket ERA). T 72 upgrade are looking good. If paki get hand on oplot it basically game over.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

T-90S is the export version of the T-90A which the Russian developed in early 90s. The T-90A itself is just an upgraded T-72 and it was originally called T-72BU (as part of a project called Object 188).
As far as protection is concerned, the Russian provided us with Kontackt -5 ERA. After signing TOT in 2007, the Russian denied to provide us the technolgy for its gun (2A6M), its baseline composite armour and Kontackt 5 ERA. All these had to be developed in-house.
Thus Indian T-90S which are rolling out from Avadhi, mostly have a reverse engineered 2A6 gun (from T-72) with a modified chemistry barrel, Kanchan composite armour, and recently ERA Mk2. Hence its weight is slightly higher than the Russian model.

 

[fire starter]

We operate monkey model of T 72 variant. T 90S on the other hand is a good tank. What we need is an upgrade ( ammo, gun+reliket ERA). T 72 upgrade are looking good. If paki get hand on oplot it basically game over.

Well porkis had the chance to buy oplot but settled for Chinese junk instead.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Buying Oplot for any country may not be a good option due to the problem of spare parts as Ukraine in poor economic condition.
Thailand tested both Oplot and VT-4 and some of the test results are given as:

 

[t 90s]

T-90S is the export version of the T-90A which the Russian developed in early 90s. The T-90A itself is just an upgraded T-72 and it was originally called T-72BU (as part of a project called Object 188).
As far as protection is concerned, the Russian provided us with Kontackt -5 ERA. After signing TOT in 2007, the Russian denied to provide us the technolgy for its gun (2A6M), its baseline composite armour and Kontackt 5 ERA. All these had to be developed in-house.
Thus Indian T-90S which are rolling out from Avadhi, mostly have a reverse engineered 2A6 gun (from T-72) with a modified chemistry barrel, Kanchan composite armour, and recently ERA Mk2. Hence its weight is slightly higher than the Russian model.

T 72BU used a T-72B turret with K 5 ERA, Shtora 1 & an upgraded fire control system from the T-80U called Irtysh. It still used a rounded turret, here you can see the round turret with K 5.

T 90A on the other hand was the first to use a welded rectangular shaped one. all subsequent models use such shape including ours.

 

[t 90s]

Buying Oplot for any country may not be a good option due to the problem of spare parts as Ukraine in poor economic condition.
Thailand tested both Oplot and VT-4 and some of the test results are given as:

View attachment 92421

Oplot has great protection...as a saying go only three thing matter when comes to tank, ammo, gun , enemy armour. VT 4 is somewhat around 800mm+ against KE according to this right ?

 

[Tactical Doge]

Monkey model strategy was of soviet Russia, they can’t do it now as user trials will expose them and they won’t be able to sell anything and majority of T-90S are made in India.

What's a monkey model?

 

[Marliii]

What's a monkey model?

Degraded model for export

 

[t 90s]

Thus Indian T-90S which are rolling out from Avadhi, mostly have a reverse engineered 2A6 gun (from T-72) with a modified chemistry barrel, Kanchan composite armour, and recently ERA Mk2. Hence its weight is slightly higher than the Russian model.

Is DRDO working on new gun, ERA , ammo ?

Well porkis had the chance to buy oplot but settled for Chinese junk instead.

I won't call it a junk. It will be a headache if Pakistan went for it in numbers.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Is DRDO working on new gun, ERA , ammo ?

I won't call it a junk. It will be a headache if Pakistan went for it in numbers.

As per DRDO, they are working on 3 separate projects:

1. New 125 mm ammunition (for existing T-90 and T-72s) with increased penetration from the current 500 mm RHA (@ 2 km @0 degree). Might be about 550-575 mm RHA.

2. New 125 mm ammunition (for existing T-90 and T-72s) with increased penetration of 700-800 mm RHA (@ 2 km @0 degree). This will require modification to the gun and turret structures. This may also be used in GNMBT.

3. New 120 mm smoothbore gun for Arjun mk2 along with associated ammunition.

 

[fire starter]

Is DRDO working on new gun, ERA , ammo ?

I won't call it a junk. It will be a headache if Pakistan went for it in numbers.

Yes they are developing NGERA and new composite armour.

 

[Marliii]

France has tested a 140mm gun I think we should go for that for NGMBT.my confusion is Arjun mk2 still ongoing? I thought they ditched it and turned to 3 man crew unmanned turret NGMBT

 

[t 90s]

.my confusion is Arjun mk2 still ongoing? I thought they ditched it and turned to 3 man crew unmanned turret NGMBT

.France has tested a 140mm gun I think we should go for that for NGMBT

No need , properly done Arjun with just 120mm smoothbore with little bit more modification to turret would have decimated all tanks in paki arsenal including Chinese. It's not rocket science. Arjun unlike T 90 allow space for wide range of upgrade. I hope if there is arjun Mk2 they do some modifications to turret & gunner sight and get rid of that rifled gun for good for minimum.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

France has tested a 140mm gun I think we should go for that for NGMBT.my confusion is Arjun mk2 still ongoing? I thought they ditched it and turned to 3 man crew unmanned turret NGMBT

The 140 mm caliber gun was tested by many NATO members like France and Germany in the 90s itself, as a result of intelligence report in late 80sthat USSR was developing a 152 mm gun to be mounted in their next generation MBTs. But it was not fielded by NATO since Russia choose to continue with their 125 mm caliber.

Arjun mk 2 project was conceived to resigned the hull and turret structure of Arjun MK1. The project was approved in 2016-17. The arjun mk2 was required to have 120 mm smoothbore gun and missile firing capability. It was decided that as stop gap 118 MK1A would be ordered till mk2 is fully developed and tested.

The FMBT project OTOH was initiated in 2010-11 itself, without any firm GSQR by the Army. Based on the Army's preferences, DRDO decided that the tank should be around 50 tons, have 3 man crew with 125 mm gun coupled to a autoloader. The project was progressing without any army involment.
After 2015, Army suddenly took interest Armata and in 2017 it launched a global RFI programme for FRCV wherein many foreign tank designers would competer against each other. And Army will choose the winning design and own the IP. This FRCV programme failed as no global manufacturer wanted to share IP.

DRDO taking a hint at the turn of events, morphed the FMBT programme into a Armata style crewless 50 tank tank programme around 2018.

Currently, DRDO wants at least 250 Arjun mk2 to be ordered after 118 mk1A, so that total production run is in around 500. Thereafter it wants GNMBT to be the army's replacement for T-72s.

 

[t 90s]

The 140 mm caliber gun was tested by many NATO members like France and Germany in the 90s itself, as a result of intelligence report in late 80sthat USSR was developing a 152 mm gun to be mounted in their next generation MBTs. But it was not fielded by NATO since Russia choose to continue with their 125 mm caliber.

Arjun mk 2 project was conceived to resigned the hull and turret structure of Arjun MK1. The project was approved in 2016-17. The arjun mk2 was required to have 120 mm smoothbore gun and missile firing capability. It was decided that as stop gap 118 MK1A would be ordered till mk2 is fully developed and tested.

The FMBT project OTOH was initiated in 2010-11 itself, without any firm GSQR by the Army. Based on the Army's preferences, DRDO decided that the tank should be around 50 tons, have 3 man crew with 125 mm gun coupled to a autoloader. The project was progressing without any army involment.
After 2015, Army suddenly took interest Armata and in 2017 it launched a global RFI programme for FRCV wherein many foreign tank designers would competer against each other. And Army will choose the winning design and own the IP. This FRCV programme failed as no global manufacturer wanted to share IP.

DRDO taking a hint at the turn of events, morphed the FMBT programme into a Armata style crewless 50 tank tank programme around 2018.

Currently, DRDO wants at least 250 Arjun mk2 to be ordered after 118 mk1A, so that total production run is in around 500. Thereafter it wants GNMBT to be the army's replacement for T-72s.

have they build any arjun mk2 prototype yet for testing ?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

have they build any arjun mk2 prototype yet for testing ?

No official sources yet. However 2018 article quoted that few hulls were fabricated by Relaince Defence and delivered to Avadhi.

RInfra to deliver parts prototypes for Arjun Mark II ahead of schedule

www.thehindubusinessline.com

Saurav Jha in his twitter has also confirmed the same.
PKS in his Trishul blog has said 4 prototypes are completed in Avadhi factory awaiting testing. However he is saying that it is a 2 man turret + autoloader system with ammo in turret bustle and tank weight 62 tons.

 

[Trololo]

3 things here:

1> We can't wish away the T-90.
2> We can't wash away a NATO grade tank like the Arjun.
3> It'll take another 15 years to replace the entire lot of T-72s.

So here is what we can do:

1> Continue development on the Arjun Mk2 to make it a kickass NATO grade tank along the lines of the Challenger-3 or Leo2-A7. Our own tech base will improve in the process.
2> Upgrade at least 80% of the newest T-90s to the Prooryv-3 standard and shove in all the Arjun tech inside it.
3> Give a limited upgrade to the T-72s to the B3M standard.

Use the non upgraded T-90s and the entire T-72 fleet (upgraded + non upgraded) in defensive roles. For offensive roles in use some 2000 kickass tanks (~1500 upgraded T-90 + ~500 fully loaded Arjuns) with all the bells and whistles. The drop in numbers will be made up by the spike in capability of each tank.

Our tank fleet is in dire straits. No SDR, poor information sharing, no AC, poor protection, poor night fighting ability, poor weapons......lots of problems unfortunately.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

T-90 and Arjun will exists side by side for the next 2 decades at least.
Now if you are going in for GNMBT for one-to-one T-72 replacement, then there will be 4 types of tank in the IA inventory.

1. GNMBT and T-90 in the medium category of 45-50 tons equipped with 125 mm main gun.
2. Arjun with 65 tons equipped with 120 mm main gun.
3. Light tank with 105 mm main gun.

Thus the logistical burden will increase manifolds. So, I propose that we should standardize around the 125 mm caliber. Make a Burlak type (2 man crew) turret for Arjun MK2 and use a lighter modified version of the turret as the Turret replacement option of existing T-90 (when they come for mid-life upgrade). Similar to what DRDO was trying with its Tank EX programme with T-72. The ammo here is stored in the turret bustle.

For reference the Burlak Turret is shown as:

 

[Blood+]

AFAIK we operate the 'monkey' models, read thinner armour ones. How come ours are superior to the Russian ones?

That was true for the T-72M1s which we had received back in the days. The T-90S on the other hand has got better armor protection as compared to the A model.

If we added armour to it then it came at the cost of mobility. The so called kanchan armour thing is it real??

Yes, it's absolutely true because the armor technology (along with that of the 2A46M2 main gun) was not part of the original ToT, so we had to make do with our own inserts instead.