Indian Army T- 90 (Bhishma) and T- 72 (M-1) Tanks

[Swiftfarts]

Penetration value of different Russian APFSDS rounds at 60° from 2000 meter.

• 3BM 42 mango has 220mm, that's 500mm+ at 0° minimum on average. Certified is 450mm.

•Svinets has 300 at 60°, with 600mm certified. Avg would be 650.

•Svinets 2 has 700mm certified.

now PDF think tank analyst Dazzler is trying to dazzle us with his horse s**t.
About 600mm+ penetration value of VT 4 ammo.

penetration value is 220 RHA at 68.5° from 2000 meters. that's less than mango period.

Vacuum round of armata has upwards of 900mm+ penetration at minimum if above values are to be believe. Which probably are true.
I think it's time to go for svinet to be on the safe side. I don't think it needs a autoloader upgrade like longer svinet 2 ( I might be wrong here so correct me).

Regarding ERA: Kontact 5 was a very effective ERA in the 1980s, which claimed to reduce the penetration of HEAT warheads by 70% and APFSDS by 20%. It became a industry standard in terms of performance. Every ERA that came after that claims 1.5-2 times better performance, be it Nozh and Duplet (Ukraine), ERAWA (Poland), Relikit and Malachit (Russia). However, these are just claims by the developers and no test results were shown or doccumented.
Also, in most tests results that are documented which do involve ERA, you will see HEAT resistance results, but not APFSDS results.

Regarding APS: Russians claim Afghanit can intercept DU FSASPDS rounds which travel at 1.5 -1.7 km/s. However, again no test results are showm.
The most widely tested and fielded hard kill APS called Trophy can at maximum intercept ATGM and RPGS etc. with a max velocity of 250-300 m/s. How come Russia moved so far ahead of Isarelis and the rest of the world?

Also, if Afghanit and Malachit are so effective, why have composite armour in T-14 armata at all. You could just install those systems in a Tata Nano car, and it will hands down beat a M1A2 Abrams any day.

Trophy was developed through technology espionage on Arena APS. Russia won't make same mistake again regarding Afghanit
as for afghanit and malachit effectiveness. Well it has managed to keep Armata weight down , and russia claim Afghanit and malachit is effective against even DU rounds. I will take there words.

Malachit is twice as thick as Relikt.

25 year old M829A2 penetrates turret protected by Kontakt 5 at 2000 meters.. even when the sabot was broken. Even Relikt or Malachit might not completely stop modern sabots.. And can you even safely add ERA like Malachit on ARMATA turret. Because the impact of ERA explosion itself might knock out the thin turret..
If India goes for an import, it better go fo K2 black panther.. also it is designed to operate in hilly terrain..

M829A2 projectile is 780mm long .Does Pakistan has something like that ? answer is no. did M829A2 really penetrate armour with K 5 at 2000 meter during test ? in most cases projectile was shattered into three pieces but it still manage to penetrate.
at 3000 meter , K 5 was effective enough for US to go for M829A3.

ERA works to a limited extend against APFSDS. It cannot defeat it completely like the HEAT warhead, but reduces it penetration performance by a certain extend. The metal plates of the ERA generally tries to break the APFSDS dart. However, both DU and WC based penetrators are extremely hard to break in the first place.

hard to break not impossible. Yes ERA effectiveness was bad in past but modern one can degrade there effectiveness quite considerably even the one which uses DU. along with Afghanit it's an over kill. Russians are not idiots to build a tank for propaganda purpose.
just because they sell monkey models or lowered down version to rest of the world, so US and NATO can test there shiny toys and claim victory. Try that against Russia proper itself and see what happens.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

I don't know where you heard espionage of Russian technology regarding Trophy system.
Regardless both Trophy and Iron Fist developed in the later part of the last decade, have been field tested and equipped on multiple AFV including Israeli (Merkava Mk4) and American vehicles (Stryker IFV).
As for Russian equipment, we have all heard stories about export models being inferior. We ourselves experienced it w.r.t T-90S and T-72. But the point is Russians themselves have fared badly in many engagements since the fall of USSR. The T-90 in the early 90s were declared to be the best tank in the planet. However, the myth got busted in First Chechen war, where it got busted by RPGs and ATGMs.
Also, during recent times in Syria, the much vaunted Pantsir got its pants on fire, when Israelis airforce bombed it from the sky.
Also as far as breaking APFSDS round of DU and Tungsten based carbides/alloys, yes it can be broken. But not by any ordinary material, you need a diamond cutter for that. I doubt the much vaunted Malachit has diamond cutter in it.

 

[Swiftfarts]

I don't know where you heard espionage of Russian technology regarding Trophy system.
Regardless both Trophy and Iron Fist developed in the later part of the last decade, have been field tested and equipped on multiple AFV including Israeli (Merkava Mk4) and American vehicles (Stryker IFV).
As for Russian equipment, we have all heard stories about export models being inferior. We ourselves experienced it w.r.t T-90S and T-72. But the point is Russians themselves have fared badly in many engagements since the fall of USSR. The T-90 in the early 90s were declared to be the best tank in the planet. However, the myth got busted in First Chechen war, where it got busted by RPGs and ATGMs.
Also, during recent times in Syria, the much vaunted Pantsir got its pants on fire, when Israelis airforce bombed it from the sky.
Also as far as breaking APFSDS round of DU and Tungsten based carbides/alloys, yes it can be broken. But not by any ordinary material, you need a diamond cutter for that. I doubt the much vaunted Malachit has diamond cutter in it.

I will like to correct. Trophy system was developed on know how stolen from Soviet Drozd hard kill APS, not arena which came much later. Iron fist is result of another russian stolen tech. Israel don't build s**t on there own.

Afghanit is designed specifically to deal with APFSDS rounds. You can see it by looking at how they are placed.

Covering 180° angle to the front. This is not like Trophy APS which rotate. There is a reason for that and that's simple. reaction time against APFSDS travelling at 1700m/s is in milliseconds. Rotating to position APS is impossible. instead Better to cover the most vulnerable part ( the front and side ). 99% of Armata is well positioned against intercepting a APFSDS round. Chance of any tank coming close to Armata without it's sensors noticing is next to nill. Armata radar elevation allow a bubble all the way to 8 km from the ground up. It will see first shoot first.

now coming to russian failure in Chechan wars. Well i don't see there tank using any APS or radar.
Object 195 was still under development and testing when war was going on along with financial constraints imposed by west on Russia to stop russian arm industrial development.

Previous Soviet works and later russian on Object 195 finally culminated into Armata minus gun. Probably the most advance tank out there.

Note that vaccum 1 penetration value of 900mm+ mentioned above in my post was achieved not when fired from Armata own 2A82 -1M gun but from sprut anti tank gun. actual penetration would be upward of 1 meter.

Projectile is 900mm long.

It's longer , heavier + with 20% more velocity.
than all current APFSDS projectile in service.

New carousel autoloader allow Armata to hold bigger penetrators upward of 1 meter.

Comparison should be apple to apple. Pantsir s1 exported to Syria is old and effectiveness of any system depends upon , technique employed , numbers, training of crew etc. I can also claim Israeli sypder system is crap since it shot down it's own helicopter. But that has more to do with incompetence of IAF personal not the system.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Price of armata is between 8 million and 12 million USD. Let's take a middle 10 million dollar price tag. We can surely get 464 of these at that price for around 5 billion. meanwhile upgrading T 90S to M standard will cost 2 million dollar each.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Afghanit unlike trophy shrapnels use singe bigger projectile to deal with APFSDS rounds. No way trophy stopping APFSDS. Iron fist come close but number required would be high to cover whole tank unlike Armata smaller sleeker profile , which allow affective 180° coverage from front.

 

[Swiftfarts]

There is to much russian bashing nowdays. Even i do it. But not everywhere and every time. Armoured vehicles along with missiles, submarines and few other things russian make good unlike semiconductors where they are lagging behind west. But there latest armoured development show how far they have come. there is nothing out there matching T 14, T 15 , Kurganets 25 out there period.

 

[WolfPack86]

India deploys T-72, T-90 tanks in eastern Ladakh’s Chumar-Demchok area to counter China

The Indian Army has deployed T-90 and T-72 tanks along with the BMP-2 Infantry Combat Vehicles which can operate at temperatures up to minus 40 degree Celsius, near the Line of Actual Control in the Chumar-Demchok area in Eastern Ladakh.


While India has deployed T-72 and heavyweight T-90 tanks, China has deployed its lightweight Type 15 tanks.


India and China are engaged in a conflict for almost five months and with the arrival of winter, the Indian Army’s armoured regiments are ready to take on the Chinese Army at altitudes of over 14,500 feet – the world’s highest battlefield for tanks and infantry combat vehicles along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Eastern Ladakh.


Indian Army is battle-ready to face the Chinese Army
For countering the Chinese People’s Liberation Army’s deployment of armoured columns, the Indian Army is battle-ready to face the Chinese Army with its T-90 and T-72 tanks along with the BMP-2 Infantry Combat Vehicles.


Ladakh is notorious for harsh winters with temperatures dipping to minus 35 degrees in the night during winters coupled with high-speed freezing winds.


“The Fire and Fury Corps is the only formation of the Indian Army and also in the world to have actually deployed mechanised forces in such harsh terrain. The maintenance of the tanks, infantry combat vehicles and heavy guns is a challenge in this terrain. To ensure crew and equipment readiness, adequate arrangements are in place for both man and machine,” Major General Arvind Kapoor told ANI.


Mechanised infantry which is the advanced part of the Indian Army has experience of working under any weather condition and any terrain.


Indian Army in Eastern Ladakh is logistically well prepared
With features like high mobility ammunition and missile storage, the Mechanised infantry has the capability to fight for a longer duration.


The Indian armoured regiments also have the capability to reach the LAC within minutes and it was on full display when the Chinese activated their tanks after the August 29-30 incidents when India occupied several heights near the southern bank of Pangong lake.


The Chief of Staff of the Fire and Fury Corps has said the Army is logistically prepared to tackle the harsh weather, with special winter clothing and other facilities such as fuel, spares and assemblies in place.

India deploys T-72, T-90 tanks in eastern Ladakh’s Chumar-Demchok area to counter China – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Swiftfarts]

India should look for either svinets 1 or
Mango M APFSDS to replace older ammunition for T 90 and T 72. Mango M will be the idle choice since it's new and design specially to fit inside older T 90 and 72 without changing there autoloader. Penetration value is 280mm certified at 60° from a minimum distance of 2 kilometre , that's 600 mm average at 0°. VT 4 with ERA provide protection of around 700mm +/- 100mm from turret.
Well this will be a headache , If paki do go for it in numbers @Bleh is there a way of getting out of this mess without upgrading autoloader ?

 

[Bleh]

USER=25336]@Bleh[/USER] is there a way of getting out of this mess without upgrading autoloader ?

It's still extremely vulnerable to even slight flanking, while T-90s would actually want to be hit at angles... See few pages ago, I made a drawing.

 

[Swiftfarts]

It's still extremely vulnerable to even slight flanking, while T-90s would actually want to be hit at angles... See few pages ago, I made a drawing.

Relying on flanking to achieve desire result is no good in my opinion. something need to be done about this. Upgrading T 90S to M will cost 2 million$ a pop. 464 of them will cost no more than a billion dollar. DRDO is already upgrading T 72 to T 90 level. T 90 need to go a level up.

 

[Bleh]

Relying on flanking to achieve desire result is no good in my opinion. something need to be done about this. Upgrading T 90S to M will cost 2 million$ a pop. 464 of them will cost no more than a billion dollar. DRDO is already upgrading T 72 to T 90 level. T 90 need to go a level up.

Actually no.

T-90 already have REALLY bad frontal protection compared to AK or VT, making ERA the deciding factor. So with the upgrade Ajeya Mark2 will have equally mediocre APFSDS, ATGM capability, comparable protection & 1000hp engine, but will be near 2t lighter.
So at this point, investing in those T-72s would make better use of funds (not really IA's style but still).

Both models desperately need to get spare ammo stowed in turret bustle though... Not being death traps would be the gamechanging factor IMO.

That or go for a Tank Ex 2. Neither best options being explored, but plaforms need to get better.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Actually no.

T-90 already have REALLY bad frontal protection compared to AK or VT, making ERA the deciding factor. So with the upgrade Ajeya Mark2 will have equally mediocre APFSDS, ATGM capability, comparable protection & 1000hp engine, but will be near 2t lighter.
So at this point, investing in those T-72s would make better use of funds (not really IA's style but still).

Both models desperately need to get spare ammo stowed in turret bustle though... Not being death traps would be the gamechanging factor IMO.

That or go for a Tank Ex 2. Neither best options being explored, but plaforms need to get better.

Well indian T 90 do not use shtora. There is a ERA plate there instead. Even on the left side one can be added.

Rest i agree.

This is the upgrade we need to look for.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

I will like to correct. Trophy system was developed on know how stolen from Soviet Drozd hard kill APS, not arena which came much later. Iron fist is result of another russian stolen tech. Israel don't build s**t on there own.

Afghanit is designed specifically to deal with APFSDS rounds. You can see it by looking at how they are placed.

View attachment 60470

Covering 180° angle to the front. This is not like Trophy APS which rotate. There is a reason for that and that's simple. reaction time against APFSDS travelling at 1700m/s is in milliseconds. Rotating to position APS is impossible. instead Better to cover the most vulnerable part ( the front and side ). 99% of Armata is well positioned against intercepting a APFSDS round. Chance of any tank coming close to Armata without it's sensors noticing is next to nill. Armata radar elevation allow a bubble all the way to 8 km from the ground up. It will see first shoot first.

now coming to russian failure in Chechan wars. Well i don't see there tank using any APS or radar.
Object 195 was still under development and testing when war was going on along with financial constraints imposed by west on Russia to stop russian arm industrial development.
View attachment 60472

Previous Soviet works and later russian on Object 195 finally culminated into Armata minus gun. Probably the most advance tank out there.

Note that vaccum 1 penetration value of 900mm+ mentioned above in my post was achieved not when fired from Armata own 2A82 -1M gun but from sprut anti tank gun. actual penetration would be upward of 1 meter.

Projectile is 900mm long.
View attachment 60468
It's longer , heavier + with 20% more velocity.
than all current APFSDS projectile in service.

View attachment 60469

New carousel autoloader allow Armata to hold bigger penetrators upward of 1 meter.

Comparison should be apple to apple. Pantsir s1 exported to Syria is old and effectiveness of any system depends upon , technique employed , numbers, training of crew etc. I can also claim Israeli sypder system is crap since it shot down it's own helicopter. But that has more to do with incompetence of IAF personal not the system.

Regarding Trophy and Iron fist: Please provide the source of your claim that it is based on stolen Russian technology.

Regarding Afghanit APS: You are just reading from the Russian brochure, There is no test data documented by Russian anywhere, nor has it undergone any test by foreign armies(other than Russian army) to verify the claim of shooting down a hypersonic projectile of APFSDS. Any arms designer claims much exaggarated values in brochure. That is why each army tests them before buying.

Regarding Pantsir incident: It was not due to incompetence of the crew. Nor was the aircraft a stealth one. The radar of the SAM failed to detect the target. As simply as that. On the other hand in the case of IAF on 27/2/2019, it was the case of not installing the IFF system on the helicopter.

Also point to be noted is that IA rejected Pantsir and choose Biho for it requirement, before the Russian protested. The project had to be eventually cancelled.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Actually no.

T-90 already have REALLY bad frontal protection compared to AK or VT, making ERA the deciding factor. So with the upgrade Ajeya Mark2 will have equally mediocre APFSDS, ATGM capability, comparable protection & 1000hp engine, but will be near 2t lighter.
So at this point, investing in those T-72s would make better use of funds (not really IA's style but still).

Both models desperately need to get spare ammo stowed in turret bustle though... Not being death traps would be the gamechanging factor IMO.

That or go for a Tank Ex 2. Neither best options being explored, but plaforms need to get better.

Actually the T-72s manufactured in India as well as the early T-90S delivered in 2001 had a cast turret. So such kind of modificiations are not possible. If you try to cut a hole in the back side of the turret (to mound a rear bustle), to whole turret will collapse. The later model T-90s do have welded turret, where such kind of modifications are possible.
But it would mean redesigning the whole turret, new autoloader, moving the ammunition. The entire thing will be prohibitively costly (for a upgrade programme) and it will be better if we design a new tank. Hell, the CVRDE was not even ready to move the GMS sight over the turret roof in Arjun, citing cost issues and no modification was done on the base turret and hull design of Arjun mk1 from early 90s to 2016, when the decision was taken to redesign the hull and turret structures. Also, any modification to t-72 and t-90 will require Russian agreement.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Ammunition cook off of the Ajerbaijan T-72 in today's engagement between Armenia and Ajerbaijan.

Our own T-72 and T-90 are just as vulnerable. Both the T-series tanks have a design fault of ammunition in crew compartment, which can lead to catastrophic result if penetrated.

 

[Bleh]

Actually the T-72s manufactured in India as well as the early T-90S delivered in 2001 had a cast turret. So such kind of modificiations are not possible. If you try to cut a hole in the back side of the turret (to mound a rear bustle), to whole turret will collapse. The later model T-90s do have welded turret, where such kind of modifications are possible.

But it would mean redesigning the whole turret, new autoloader, moving the ammunition. The entire thing will be prohibitively costly (for a upgrade programme) and it will be better if we design a new tank. Hell, the CVRDE was not even ready to move the GMS sight over the turret roof in Arjun, citing cost issues and no modification was done on the base turret and hull design of Arjun mk1 from early 90s to 2016, when the decision was taken to redesign the hull and turret structures. Also, any modification to t-72 and t-90 will require Russian agreement.

Nah. Actually T-72 already has a big opening at the back. That's where the gun barrel is changed from, not the front like Arjun.
Plus Ukrainians already has upgraded the T-72-120 in such manner. If you cut into and then weld upon a cast metal structure, it won't fall apart.

And Russians would probably not disagree to a bustle, its not total internal change like Tank Ex. And its basically an welded bin with blowoff panels, to keep the ammo that's otherwise be on hull for safety. No change to autoloader, required.

 

[Deathstar]

View attachment 60527

Ammunition cook off of the Ajerbaijan T-72 in today's engagement between Armenia and Ajerbaijan.

Our own T-72 and T-90 are just as vulnerable. Both the T-series tanks have a design fault of ammunition in crew compartment, which can lead to catastrophic result if penetrated.

I bet Pakis are studying this....bad news for us. I hope we quickly move on too next gen MBT to replace T72s and upgrade T90s to MS standard

 

[Akula]

View attachment 60527

Ammunition cook off of the Ajerbaijan T-72 in today's engagement between Armenia and Ajerbaijan.

Our own T-72 and T-90 are just as vulnerable. Both the T-series tanks have a design fault of ammunition in crew compartment, which can lead to catastrophic result if penetrated.

And you know who upgraded those Azerbaijani tanks with ERA? Isreal.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Regarding Trophy and Iron fist: Please provide the source of your claim that it is based on stolen Russian technology.



Regarding Pantsir incident: It was not due to incompetence of the crew. Nor was the aircraft a stealth one. The radar of the SAM failed to detect the target. As simply as that. On the other hand in the case of IAF on 27/2/2019, it was the case of not installing the IFF system on the helicopter.

Also point to be noted is that IA rejected Pantsir and choose Biho for it requirement, before the Russian protested. The project had to be eventually cancelled.

I don't have a source , i will post it if i find one.I read it on a article long ago quoting some retired Soviet engineer i think claiming how after breakup of union blueprint and know how of Drozd APS were passed to Israeli thorough certain European country. on basis of which they latter developed completely new system call trophy.

.Regarding Afghanit APS: You are just reading from the Russian brochure, There is no test data documented by Russian anywhere, nor has it undergone any test by foreign armies(other than Russian army) to verify the claim of shooting down a hypersonic projectile of APFSDS. Any arms designer claims much exaggarated values in brochure. That is why each army tests them before buying.

I don't know why you don't want to believe that ? Why would russian lie? Upgraded Drozd are causing huge trouble to Ukrainian ATGMS as advertised in brochure. I think Afghanit will do the same. Here's some quote regarding Trophy system.

.
Trophy, in particular, would be a big upgrade,” agreed the Hill staffer.

Not so fast, said Scales. Trophy is “just typical Israeli overhype and ineffectiveness. It was a great killer of accompanying infantry,” he told me. “They have a very simple and unreliable and very expensive radar system that sits on the turret, and when it detects something coming in, these shotgun shells fire out, much like you’d shoot at clay pigeons…..Here’s the problem with that: If you have infantry nearby, then you kill the infantry.”

Regarding Pantsir incident: It was not due to incompetence of the crew. Nor was the aircraft a stealth one. The radar of the SAM failed to detect the target. As simply as that. On the other hand in the case of IAF on 27/2/2019, it was the case of not installing the IFF system on the helicopter.

Pantsir sold abroad are monkey models. I have already said here many times that russian radar technology lag behind west but they are catching up. You need to compare apple to apple. I can also claim houthi rebels are superior to Abraham's since they manage to knock few of them and Abraham couldn't see them coming. as for russian objection to Biho well i agree with russians objection and indian military decision to scrap the process.

 

[Bleh]

I bet Pakis are studying this....bad news for us. I hope we quickly move on too next gen MBT to replace T72s and upgrade T90s to MS standard

And that is why you need to move spare ammo to bustle, the carousel itself is far less unsafe... But presently T-72/90 would take a MASSIVE toll on morale & fighting ability of the crews once they smell toasted colleagues a few times.

But the higher echelon are mostly DALALs that doesn't care for the cannon fodders.