Indian Army T- 90 (Bhishma) and T- 72 (M-1) Tanks

JBH22

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Messages
3,926
Likes
3,324
I bet Pakis are studying this....bad news for us. I hope we quickly move on too next gen MBT to replace T72s and upgrade T90s to MS standard
Well Pakis have shitty Chinese tanks, but one thing they approached Ukraine for ERA and APS like Varta. Our procurement process selected LEDS150 but nothing materialised, but who cares.
We always play catch up
 

[email protected]

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
1,661
Likes
2,064
Country flag
Nah. Actually T-72 already has a big opening at the back. That's where the gun barrel is changed from, not the front like Arjun.
Plus Ukrainians already has upgraded the T-72-120 in such manner. If you cut into and then weld upon a cast metal structure, it won't fall apart.

And Russians would probably not disagree to a bustle, its not total internal change like Tank Ex. And its basically an welded bin with blowoff panels, to keep the ammo that's otherwise be on hull for safety. No change to autoloader, required.
If this suggestion is accepted, then how do you propose to change the gun barrel of the T-72, whose access to the turret from its rear side will be blocked by the newly welded turret bustle.
 
Last edited:

[email protected]

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
1,661
Likes
2,064
Country flag
Future lies in Arjun mk 2 and FMBT.
Even if somehow Army convinces the government to purchase Armata, it will be monkey models only, minus Malachit and Afghanit and apfds with 500 mm (@ 2 km) maximum.
In short we will fund their next generation of tanks, while they will refuse to transfer any critical technology, despite signing billion dollar TOT agreement.
That will be a repeat of the T-90 saga all over again.
 

Swiftfarts

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Messages
319
Likes
347
Country flag
Possible ammo upgrade for indian T 90.

View attachment 60555

Certified Penetration values are given at 2km/60°.
Looks like Only sivnets 2 has a chance of penetrating VT 4 from the front from 2 km comfortably. It will go through it like hot knife go through butter. Even Mango M won't cut it.
Future lies in Arjun mk 2 and FMBT.
Even if somehow Army convinces the government to purchase Armata, it will be monkey models only, minus Malachit and Afghanit and apfds with 500 mm (@ 2 km) maximum.
In short we will fund their next generation of tanks, while they will refuse to transfer any critical technology, despite signing billion dollar TOT agreement.
That will be a repeat of the T-90 saga all over again.
Armata current monkey model is ahead of almost all western tanks , how bad it could be :lol: i think , it's better to upgrade T 90 to M level with sivnets 2 and replace all T 72 with around 600 odd armata. There is enough money to by them.
 

Vorschlaghammer

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
324
Likes
519
Country flag
On the topic of adding turret bustle on the existing T72/90 platforms, without upgrade/redesign of autoloader, that could possibly interfere with the casing stub ejection door at the back.

 
Last edited:

Vorschlaghammer

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
324
Likes
519
Country flag
Nah. Actually T-72 already has a big opening at the back. That's where the gun barrel is changed from, not the front like Arjun.
Plus Ukrainians already has upgraded the T-72-120 in such manner. If you cut into and then weld upon a cast metal structure, it won't fall apart.

And Russians would probably not disagree to a bustle, its not total internal change like Tank Ex. And its basically an welded bin with blowoff panels, to keep the ammo that's otherwise be on hull for safety. No change to autoloader, required.
If this suggestion is accepted, then how do you propose to change the gun barrel of the T-72, whose access to the turret from its rear side will be blocked by the newly welded turret bustle.
Going by this post, main gun replacement is apparently a pain.

 

Bleh

Laughing member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
3,536
Likes
10,258
Country flag
If this suggestion is accepted, then how do you propose to change the gun barrel of the T-72, whose access to the turret from its rear side will be blocked by the newly welded turret bustle.
Going by this post, main gun replacement is apparently a pain.

Thanks a lot!.. Couldn't find a photo myself.
The design inconveniences aside, all they have to do is along those lines replace that back wall with one/two part bin... That possibly hinged sideways on one or both sides. That's what it's done in most such cases. It's not new. Several already exist all over the world.

Stub ejection is not a big deal really. It's small & comes out of roof.

None of our is an issue in the welded T-90s anyways.
 
Last edited:

Trololo

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
136
Likes
202
Country flag
Future lies in Arjun mk 2 and FMBT.
Even if somehow Army convinces the government to purchase Armata, it will be monkey models only, minus Malachit and Afghanit and apfds with 500 mm (@ 2 km) maximum.
In short we will fund their next generation of tanks, while they will refuse to transfer any critical technology, despite signing billion dollar TOT agreement.
That will be a repeat of the T-90 saga all over again.
Spot on.
IMO for the existing Indian Army T-90s we can go for the T-90M Prooryv3 upgrade with heavy use of indigenous components and systems like Kanchan armor, Tonbo optics, etc, and a foreign active protection system. These tanks can be placed in the China border to fight in Tibet and in Punjab to overrun Pakistan's Punjab. The Indian T-90 upgrade should be deep and comprehensive and be the absolute best T-90 on the block.

The Arjun Mk1A and Arjun Mk2 should be procured in large numbers to sit in Rajasthan and Gujarat from where they can steamroll south Punjab and Sindh. Again both these machines should have an APS system as standard at some point.

A section of T-72s should be upgraded to the B3M standard, which, along with Arjun Mk1s and maybe older T-90s can form the second line of armored defence. Remaining old T-72s should be sold off to friendly nations, maybe with some Indian upgrades as part of the package.
 

Dessert Storm

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
1,080
Likes
2,731
Country flag
Spot on.
IMO for the existing Indian Army T-90s we can go for the T-90M Prooryv3 upgrade with heavy use of indigenous components and systems like Kanchan armor, Tonbo optics, etc, and a foreign active protection system. These tanks can be placed in the China border to fight in Tibet and in Punjab to overrun Pakistan's Punjab. The Indian T-90 upgrade should be deep and comprehensive and be the absolute best T-90 on the block.

The Arjun Mk1A and Arjun Mk2 should be procured in large numbers to sit in Rajasthan and Gujarat from where they can steamroll south Punjab and Sindh. Again both these machines should have an APS system as standard at some point.

A section of T-72s should be upgraded to the B3M standard, which, along with Arjun Mk1s and maybe older T-90s can form the second line of armored defence. Remaining old T-72s should be sold off to friendly nations, maybe with some Indian upgrades as part of the package.
IA has its eyes on FRCV program. The timeline is 2025-26. In view of that, they may not want to go in for deep upgrades, at least for T 72 and limited numbers on T 90. Arjun Mk1A, MK2..... sad but looks piecemeal. Hope the FRCV program is accelerated by a couple of years.
 

Trololo

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
136
Likes
202
Country flag
IA has its eyes on FRCV program. The timeline is 2025-26. In view of that, they may not want to go in for deep upgrades, at least for T 72 and limited numbers on T 90. Arjun Mk1A, MK2..... sad but looks piecemeal. Hope the FRCV program is accelerated by a couple of years.
FRCV is of no use. Arjun Mk3 can be the FRCV. The basic platform of the Arjun is excellent. The US still uses the formidable Abrams with very deep upgrades that make it virtually a new machine. Same has been demonstrated for the Challenger 2. MoD and army brass must put its foot down on Arjuns. I say 80 percent of our T-90 force and 40 percent of our T-72 force can be deeply upgraded to make a formidable tank force. Remaining old tanks can be scrapped or sold off or kept in reserves.
 

Dessert Storm

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
1,080
Likes
2,731
Country flag
FRCV is of no use. Arjun Mk3 can be the FRCV. The basic platform of the Arjun is excellent. The US still uses the formidable Abrams with very deep upgrades that make it virtually a new machine. Same has been demonstrated for the Challenger 2. MoD and army brass must put its foot down on Arjuns. I say 80 percent of our T-90 force and 40 percent of our T-72 force can be deeply upgraded to make a formidable tank force. Remaining old tanks can be scrapped or sold off or kept in reserves.
FRCV of no use.....woww... congratulation to you assessment👍.
Deep upgrades yes but in limited numbers. What is 'limited'..... the army will decide (not necessarily 80, 40).
IA has its own doctrine. They will decide which platforms fit the doctrine.
Apparantly they will go with FRCV, limited deep upgrades, limited Arjuns.
 

Trololo

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
136
Likes
202
Country flag
FRCV of no use.....woww... congratulation to you assessment👍.
Deep upgrades yes but in limited numbers. What is 'limited'..... the army will decide (not necessarily 80, 40).
IA has its own doctrine. They will decide which platforms fit the doctrine.
Apparantly they will go with FRCV, limited deep upgrades, limited Arjuns.
Thank you for congratulating my assessment because I am right. FRCV is of no use. FRCV is a back door to Armata. And Armata is basically opening the gate for Armata based IFV, ICV, ARRV, etc. Thats a big middle finger to domestic industry. The percentages were preceded with the phrase ('I say'). Read that again. Having said that, deep upgrade in limited numbers serves no purpose. The T90 is around 2000 plus units in our arsenal, as well as T-72. Do note that even upgrading 200 tanks a year will take us 10 years to upgrade each type, by which the earlier models will become obsolete. Also, a 'limited' upgrade of a measly 200-300 is waste of money and capability, simply because the costs can't be amortized by placing large orders to domestic industry.

Prooryv-3 makes the T-90 an almost new tank, and a custom upgrade of this infused with domestic components in partnership with domestic industry is the way forward. While the oldest models need not be upgraded, the newer 1000 + ones certainly can and that will be better than anything the Pakis can throw at us in Punjab, and what the Chinese can throw in Tibet. The oldest T-90s can always be kept in reserve.

Arjun Mk1A and Mk2 is absolutely necessary to mature local tank design and manufacturing capability. Do remember that the Arjun specifications are NATO grade, because that was what was required by the army. Steamrolling into Sindh and south Punjab can be achieved with the Arjun. It was designed from the ground up to do so. Arjun Mk1 will be placed in defensive role once the same is inducted. Arjun's success is critical to go to its Mk3 version, and cement Indian tank industry.

T-72s are present in large numbers, and most are obsolete. Like the T-90s, only the most recent ones need to be upgraded to a B3M like standard with significant local tech. The numbers are for the army to decide of course but certainly they will be lower than T-90 numbers. Upgraded T-72s will make excellent tanks to hold the flanks, and again as a second line of defence. Their sheer numbers are again the reason why they are being upgraded. Else they would have been junked by now. I strongly doubt if T-72s (upgraded or not) will be used for deep thrusts into Paki territory.

Regarding limited upgrades and limited Arjuns, its the job of the political executive to put their foot down. The upgraded T90s and new Arjuns are very capable platforms, and their induction is in the best interests of the country and the armed forces.
 

Dessert Storm

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
1,080
Likes
2,731
Country flag
Thank you for congratulating my assessment because I am right. FRCV is of no use. FRCV is a back door to Armata. And Armata is basically opening the gate for Armata based IFV, ICV, ARRV, etc. Thats a big middle finger to domestic industry. The percentages were preceded with the phrase ('I say'). Read that again. Having said that, deep upgrade in limited numbers serves no purpose. The T90 is around 2000 plus units in our arsenal, as well as T-72. Do note that even upgrading 200 tanks a year will take us 10 years to upgrade each type, by which the earlier models will become obsolete. Also, a 'limited' upgrade of a measly 200-300 is waste of money and capability, simply because the costs can't be amortized by placing large orders to domestic industry.

Prooryv-3 makes the T-90 an almost new tank, and a custom upgrade of this infused with domestic components in partnership with domestic industry is the way forward. While the oldest models need not be upgraded, the newer 1000 + ones certainly can and that will be better than anything the Pakis can throw at us in Punjab, and what the Chinese can throw in Tibet. The oldest T-90s can always be kept in reserve.

Arjun Mk1A and Mk2 is absolutely necessary to mature local tank design and manufacturing capability. Do remember that the Arjun specifications are NATO grade, because that was what was required by the army. Steamrolling into Sindh and south Punjab can be achieved with the Arjun. It was designed from the ground up to do so. Arjun Mk1 will be placed in defensive role once the same is inducted. Arjun's success is critical to go to its Mk3 version, and cement Indian tank industry.

T-72s are present in large numbers, and most are obsolete. Like the T-90s, only the most recent ones need to be upgraded to a B3M like standard with significant local tech. The numbers are for the army to decide of course but certainly they will be lower than T-90 numbers. Upgraded T-72s will make excellent tanks to hold the flanks, and again as a second line of defence. Their sheer numbers are again the reason why they are being upgraded. Else they would have been junked by now. I strongly doubt if T-72s (upgraded or not) will be used for deep thrusts into Paki territory.

Regarding limited upgrades and limited Arjuns, its the job of the political executive to put their foot down. The upgraded T90s and new Arjuns are very capable platforms, and their induction is in the best interests of the country and the armed forces.
The platforms have 'generations' for a reason. You can present reams upon reams of your thesis saying whatever you believe but the fact remains that no previous generation platform cannot be even at the very least be as good as the next gen platform(useless no, competitive yes), even after deep upgrades. They would remain, to give an example be 'Super Sukohis', but they can never be 'Su 57s'.
*Su 57 may not be a mature platform but its basic capabilities would always be more than Super Sukohis.
** Backdoor is just an allegation for you to spice up your POV.
 

Trololo

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
136
Likes
202
Country flag
The platforms have 'generations' for a reason. You can present reams upon reams of your thesis saying whatever you believe but the fact remains that no previous generation platform cannot be even at the very least be as good as the next gen platform(useless no, competitive yes), even after deep upgrades. They would remain, to give an example be 'Super Sukohis', but they can never be 'Su 57s'.
*Su 57 may not be a mature platform but its basic capabilities would always be more than Super Sukohis.
** Backdoor is just an allegation for you to spice up your POV.
You can stuff your "next gen" Armata with all the gadgets and armor that you want, but if the enemy can come up with a gun and/ or ATGM which can defeat that, then mounting that gun or ATGM on an older platform serves the purpose well. Look at what the Houthis did to the spanking new Saudi Abrams. Remember that armor strength and gun tech is a cat and mouse game with each outdoing the other over time. Having said that, its always a better choice for us to go for Arjuns in Mk1A, Mk2, Mk3 forms, along with deep upgrades of T-series instead of going for FRCV, which is a Trojan Horse for the Armata import. And yes that's a backdoor, and yes that spices up my correct POV.
 

Swiftfarts

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Messages
319
Likes
347
Country flag
Arjun is neither futuristic neither army is interested. They will go for Armata down the line , mark my word.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top