Indian Army: News and Discussion

[12arya]

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[Shadow]

K 9 Vajra and M777....

In this video at 18:18 mins,one can see the crew wearing modern helmets with comm sets unlike the standard Soveit clothed helmet.

It is probably supplied by MKU similar to this.

 

[ezsasa]

advancing through a room or any confined area with barrels down is basic practice done by everyone and is common sense.

Risks of blue on blue or blue on green is way too high to risk going in barrels levelled at chest height.

This video has been my benchmark for room clearing in indian context(Yudh Abhyas 2012)...
(Barrel pointing level)

Compared to first 12 mins of this video telecast today..
(Barrel pointing down during traversing)

Do i have to change my benchmark now?

 

[binayak95]

This video has been my benchmark for room clearing in indian context(Yudh Abhyas 2012)...
(Barrel pointing level)

Compared to first 12 mins of this video telecast today..
(Barrel pointing down during traversing)

Do i have to change my benchmark now?

Yeah watch the YA video. Everyone runs or moves around with guns pointed downwards. Except the Paras once they enter the room - the bullpup TAR21 allows for that.

 

[ezsasa]

Yeah watch the YA video. Everyone runs or moves around with guns pointed downwards. Except the Paras once they enter the room - the bullpup TAR21 allows for that.

yup, that was what i was getting at.
INSAS and indoor room clearing operations are not the right combination.

 

[jackprince]

yup, that was what i was getting at.
INSAS and indoor room clearing operations are not the right combination.

In a tactical situation there may not be enough time to call in SF teams and actually is not feasible to call SF teams for every room clearing op. Also, there may not be enough soldiers with carbines for the task too. In such situation, soldiers would have to do the job with their regular weapon i.e. INSAS and training them for such scenario is practical.

 

[ezsasa]

In a tactical situation there may not be enough time to call in SF teams and actually is not feasible to call SF teams for every room clearing op. Also, there may not be enough soldiers with carbines for the task too. In such situation, soldiers would have to do the job with their regular weapon i.e. INSAS and training them for such scenario is practical.

yup, realised that.
that's why i didn't go into a irrational rant.
otherwise i would have started with the modi should rejine

 

[binayak95]

In a tactical situation there may not be enough time to call in SF teams and actually is not feasible to call SF teams for every room clearing op. Also, there may not be enough soldiers with carbines for the task too. In such situation, soldiers would have to do the job with their regular weapon i.e. INSAS and training them for such scenario is practical.

Which is why the army has been harping about getting new 5.56 carbines for over a decade now. WE STILL HAVE THOSE STERLING WWII guns. Fucking death traps.

 

[rkhanna]

PS - Most militaries are transitioning to a 14-14.5" barrel for their Battle Rifles. They arnt making Carbine Vs Assault Rifle distinctions anymore.

Small Arms engagements (even in the Indian context) happen at an Average at 75-150 meters within the effective range of "Carbines". Longer range is provided by squad support weapons: RCL, LMG, DMR.

More and more future conflict will be fought in Urban/Built up areas or in Low Viz Areas (Jungles / Mountains). Desert Type Conflict will be mechanized anyways.

Is there a need to make a distinction of Battle Rifles and Carbines separately? The only real reason would be for the caliber of the round. Which adds a whole host of other questions:

Will a Squad / Platoon be equipped with a single calibre type weapons or a Mix ?

if a Mix then - Incase a Soldier is KIA how will his load be distributed? What happens when "one" type of ammo runs out for a squad/platoon. How does the Squad/Platoon maintain Combat effectiveness.

If a Squad/ Platoon will get one Kind of Calibre then while easier to manage Logistically you will end up in the same situation as the video above)

IMO -Nothing the Indian Army is saying or doing with regards to Small Arms is making ANY sense

 

[cyclops]

Lt Gen D Anbu, VCOAS @adgpi
pays homage to Lance Naik Antony Sebastian K M who fell to enemy action during ceasefire violation along the Line of Control in Poonch on Nov 12.
@akananth @OnmanoramaLive

 

[nongaddarliberal]

PS - Most militaries are transitioning to a 14-14.5" barrel for their Battle Rifles. They arnt making Carbine Vs Assault Rifle distinctions anymore.

Small Arms engagements (even in the Indian context) happen at an Average at 75-150 meters within the effective range of "Carbines". Longer range is provided by squad support weapons: RCL, LMG, DMR.

More and more future conflict will be fought in Urban/Built up areas or in Low Viz Areas (Jungles / Mountains). Desert Type Conflict will be mechanized anyways.

Is there a need to make a distinction of Battle Rifles and Carbines separately? The only real reason would be for the caliber of the round. Which adds a whole host of other questions:

Will a Squad / Platoon be equipped with a single calibre type weapons or a Mix ?

if a Mix then - Incase a Soldier is KIA how will his load be distributed? What happens when "one" type of ammo runs out for a squad/platoon. How does the Squad/Platoon maintain Combat effectiveness.

If a Squad/ Platoon will get one Kind of Calibre then while easier to manage Logistically you will end up in the same situation as the video above)

IMO -Nothing the Indian Army is saying or doing with regards to Small Arms is making ANY sense

If there are battles in the mountains, such as in Ladakh or arunachal, then individual soldiers will have to shoot accurately upto 400-500 meters. There will be no urban battles in this scenario. That being said, I agree that the Indian armys new small arms policy makes absolutely no sense. We will have to provide three different calibre to troops now. The 7.62x39 AK rounds, 5.56x45 for carbines, and 7.62x51 for Sig 716s.

 

[rkhanna]

there are battles in the mountains, such as in Ladakh or arunachal, then individual soldiers will have to shoot accurately upto 400-500 meters

No average infantry grunt is shooting accurately at 400mm. Indian army or otherwise. At those ranges section support fire power will be used. - snipers / LMG / RCL / mortar.

 

[ezsasa]

No average infantry grunt is shooting accurately at 400mm. Indian army or otherwise. At those ranges section support fire power will be used. - snipers / LMG / RCL / mortar.

At 400 m does the 5.56 or AK round have enough kinetic energy to do tissue damage?

 

[rkhanna]

At 400 m does the 5.56 or AK round have enough kinetic energy to do tissue damage?

Actually yes. The 556 has superior velocity as compared to the AK round at 500mm

But effectiveness is a factor of bullet drop and ballistic coefficient

All your answers are here

https://www.snipercountry.com/5-56-vs-7-62/

The thing is at that range second shot probability of accuracy drastically drops.

Hence that range is territory of Carl Gustav / lmgs / snipers - supression fire. Till you can manouver to get closer to further away

 

[binayak95]

I was surprised at seeing the capability of the Mk12 SPR and the Blackhills MK262 5.56x45 ammo being able to effectively reach out to 700m. Goes to show just how capable the AR15 and the 5.56 actually is.

Actually yes. The 556 has superior velocity as compared to the AK round at 500mm

But effectiveness is a factor of bullet drop and ballistic coefficient

All your answers are here

https://www.snipercountry.com/5-56-vs-7-62/

The thing is at that range second shot probability of accuracy drastically drops.

Hence that range is territory of Carl Gustav / lmgs / snipers - supression fire. Till you can manouver to get closer to further away

 

[12arya]

http://www.defencebarta.com/anti-mi...Zt1MZZtsmSxKYjtkXl5LumY3Jly7PkrT_HkkV4HWS8GVA

Anti-mine boots procured for soldiers in forward posts in Jammu and Kashmir: Army commander

 

[12arya]

Army Chief Bipin Rawat’s stern warning to terror ‘recruits’ in Jammu and Kashmir: ‘Return or be neutralised’
As Pakistan’s meddling in the region of Jammu and Kashmir grows, Army Chief General Bipin Rawat on Monday issued a stern warning to the youngsters who join militant organisations, saying that they should either return or the Army would neutralise them. Appealing to the terror ‘recruits’, the Army chief said that that had the opportunity to surrender and give up guns.

“It is not worth joining militancy because you will not live long. We are giving you an opportunity to surrender and give up guns. If people do not behave and continue the violence, the only element left is to neutralise them,” the Army Chief said on Monday. He made the comments while addressing a gathering of senior Army officer, defence experts and former senior officials of government and police at a function titled ‘Changing Contours of Internal Security in India: Trends and Responses’.

Watch: India’s Top 6 Military Acquisition in last 2 Years
When asked to comment on former Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah’s criticism over the government’s failure to engage with “non-mainstream” stakeholders in the state, Army Chief General Rawat ruled out direct talks between the Centre and terrorists. However, he urged Kashmiri separatists to hold talks with the government’s interlocutor, Dineshwar Sharma, who has been tasked to hold conversations with all stakeholders in the state. India will continue to maintain security in the Indo-Pacific region, says Army Chief General Bipin Rawat

He added that the government could not do much if the Kashmiri separatists chose not to hold parleys with the interlocutor and be open to negotiations. He said, “Interlocutor is talking to people; he is open to anybody who wants to speak to him. We’re doing indirect talks, if they (separatists) don’t want to talk, what can we do? The head of the state isn’t going to talk to the terrorists; it’s not going to happen.”

Meanwhile, addressing the issue of security concerns in Punjab, the Army chief said that the Union government was taking full action against external forces trying to revive insurgency in the state. He said, “Punjab CM is concerned and taking direct action so the violence doesn’t spread again. Outsiders will attempt but the people of Punjab will not let them do it.”

 

[rkhanna]

I was surprised at seeing the capability of the Mk12 SPR and the Blackhills MK262 5.56x45 ammo being able to effectively reach out to 700m. Goes to show just how capable the AR15 and the 5.56 actually is.

YES!!! Thats they the "Argument" that the Indian Army prefers AKs in COIN because of superior ballistics is FALSE!!!

the 556 is a very good round. the Problem is India (with INSAS) is as follows

1. No Full Auto
2. The 556 round manufactured by OFB requires as 22" barrel to completely burn the propellant. The INSAS AR is an 18" barrel and doesnt get the best out of the OFB round. THAT is also the reason that the INSAS LMG works FINE!

PS - With the TAVOR's - India bought TOT for the IWI rounds to make in India.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

No average infantry grunt is shooting accurately at 400mm. Indian army or otherwise. At those ranges section support fire power will be used. - snipers / LMG / RCL / mortar.

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www....ethink-of-reliance-on-workhorse-m-4-rifle.amp

Long-range Afghan firefights prompt US Army rethink of reliance on workhorse M-4 rifle

 

[rkhanna]

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www....ethink-of-reliance-on-workhorse-m-4-rifle.amp

Long-range Afghan firefights prompt US Army rethink of reliance on workhorse M-4 rifle

Article is from 2014

Yes - articles like these are full of sensationalism with little conclusion - the US military themselves have debunked after detailed AAR and Study across ALL the theaters it is currently active in

1. The US Army and Marine Corp internal Studies have repeatedly said that Majority of Small Arms encounters happen at 150m - at 500mm you will find very little accuracy in the hands of an Average Grunt. At 500m you will ALWAYS bring in Squad Support Weapons.
- the AKs at 300-500m are inaccurate suprresive fire only and rarely posed danger to US troops (unlike a lucky shot)

2 The US Army and Marine Corp after a decade of study has retained not only the 556 but the M4 aswell as the primary battle rifle of the US Military (replacing the longer barreled M16A4)

3. I have shown (few posts back) that the 556 is very comparable to the 762/39 at 500mm (the 556 has superior Velocity at 500m) - the 762/39 holds no substantial advantage

4. As in the case of the INSAS - the 556 needs a 20-22" barrel to completely burn off the propellant to be effective. The M4 (14" barell) and the INSAS 18" barrel the rounds failed. A decade of GWOT has made western small arm manufactures upgrade the 566 (propellant) to be effective coming out of carbines and the issues have been resolved.

Today you have 556 rounds accurate to 350-400 meters from a 14-16" barrels and acurate to 700ms from 20-22" barrels