Indian Army Artillery

[abingdonboy]

OFB takes years to fulfill orders of 114 odd Dhanush systems and is expected to deliver the last gun from the order by 2026-27. OFB sheepishly admits 'some' parts are imported.

With K-9 Vajra, contract is signed in 2017, 100th gun gets delivered by L&T in 2021... under the overhang of covid. Agreed, it may have been glorified screwdrivering at best but still..

Sala MHA should raise arty brigades with BSF, Assam Rifles, CRPF and ITBP, arm them with whatever indigenous guns they can get their hands on and train the maximum number of men they can so if shit truly hits the fan some day, there will be a few around to retaliate. I know there are a few BSF battalions who operate the 105 LFG and I did find a video on youtube of a couple of 'concealed' 105's firing almost in LOS mode across the LOC sometime around 2016-2017... but can't find that video anymore.

Screw OFB (or whatever they are called now) they will perform or perish.

ATAGS won’t be made in any OFB factory so Dhanush example is utterly irrelevant. As per Kalyani they can make a stupid amount of guns if given the orders, something like 200-300/yr

these clowns relying on stable production lines in foreign lands to feed their immediate needs and then giving lowly orders at home and being shocked (pretending to be anyway) when production capacity is limited

 

[abingdonboy]

Bullshit!! Arjun is overweight due to horrendous design optimization by our clueless DRDO walas!! I've told you before and will repeat this again - quit peddling this crap, seriously, quit it!!

Not going into it so please don’t start an Arjun discussion here

this is long since a dead issue with only 124+118 ordered (don’t think the latter order has actually been placed)

my only point is that whatever shortcomings existed on the 90s/00s design are worth knowing but as we’ve seen with DRDO products development is not static. Mk.1 would’ve been replaced by Mk.2 and by now we could be on Mk.4/5. Look at the Leo, they are on the A7

expecting 100% perfection from day 1,using that as an excuse to delay and hamper orders then running to the open market is peak incompetence or intentional sabotage

 

[Johny_Baba]

ATAGS has a 25L chamber, world record for range in a 155/52 towed gun but these a-holes want it to be arbitrarily 2-3 tons lighter despite it passing all mobility trails in the mountains

I am not sure about this claims of "ATAGS establishing World Record" for longest range in 155mm/52 cal category; because searching for it gives not much material; rather in wikipedia and basic brochure like results i more or less see it that some artilleries like Archer of Sweden, Pzh-2000 of Germany, some newer SPH of Russia, some Chinese SPH etc all have range for ER-BB rounds in 40-50 km range;
so can this be taken as some sort of 'greatest ever' thing ?
do note i consider ATAGS to be damn worthy for whatever it does but using much superlative claims for that seems a bit too much to me.

 

[AnantS]

I am not sure about this claims of "ATAGS establishing World Record" for longest range in 155mm/52 cal category; because searching for it gives not much material; rather in wikipedia and basic brochure like results i more or less see it that some artilleries like Archer of Sweden, Pzh-2000 of Germany, some newer SPH of Russia, some Chinese SPH etc all have range for ER-BB rounds in 40-50 km range;
so can this be taken as some sort of 'greatest ever' thing ?
do note i consider ATAGS to be damn worthy for whatever it does but using much superlative claims for that seems a bit too much to me.

I think with Er bb rounds atags range is 70?

 

[another_armchair]

I think with Er bb rounds atags range is 70?

Sure you aren't mistaking it for this one?

70 kilometer precision-guided artillery shot at U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground

The first successful test of a 70 km (43 miles) shot with a precision-guided munition took place on December 19, 2020 at U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground. The live fire demonstration used the Excalibur projectile and was the culmination of a campaign of learning on multiple systems. “Not only did...

www.dvidshub.net

US went public with the ^above when there was chatter on twitter among indian defence journos that the atags can reach 70 kms with er rounds. Some of them actually taunted us saying big difference between claims and actually achieving the milestone.

 

[Love Charger]

This is why I seldom come to the forum now .
Why should I ,ya I burn my haart regarding all these haartburning neuj you peepul giveth here.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Sure you aren't mistaking it for this one?

70 kilometer precision-guided artillery shot at U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground

The first successful test of a 70 km (43 miles) shot with a precision-guided munition took place on December 19, 2020 at U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground. The live fire demonstration used the Excalibur projectile and was the culmination of a campaign of learning on multiple systems. “Not only did...

www.dvidshub.net

US went public with the ^above when there was chatter on twitter among indian defence journos that the atags can reach 70 kms with er rounds. Some of them actually taunted us saying big difference between claims and actually achieving the milestone.

not same thing as what is often said about ATAGS;
because here they are launching some latest Excalibur precision guided shell which is also of "Rocket Assisted" kind;
and BB means "Base Bleeding" which technically isn't rocket assisted one; it just has a solid propellant powered 'bleeder' at bottom that leaks out hot gases at the end of the shell to reduce in-flight drag of the ammo which in turn increases its range;
a simple glance over both kind of rounds on their respective wikipedia articles would suffice to give understanding of the basic gist

Base bleed - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Rocket-assisted projectile - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and our attempts to make Solid Ramjet-powered artillery shells is very much similar to making a rocket-boosted ammo in some other configuration than common one

coming to ATAGS and claims of around 48 km range; they mention it achieved that feat using 'Base Bleed' ammo not with rocket assisted ones; otherwise with this latest Excalibur precision guided shell with rocket motor and all at its base i assume it would also exhibit near 70 km range;

in fact DRDO and IIT-Madras claims with solid ramjet powered shell they are making it to be near 78 km

 

[mokoman]

not same thing as what is often said about ATAGS;
because here they are launching some latest Excalibur precision guided shell which is also of "Rocket Assisted" kind;
and BB means "Base Bleeding" which technically isn't rocket assisted one; it just has a solid propellant powered 'bleeder' at bottom that leaks out hot gases at the end of the shell to reduce in-flight drag of the ammo which in turn increases its range;
a simple glance over both kind of rounds on their respective wikipedia articles would suffice to give understanding of the basic gist

Base bleed - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Rocket-assisted projectile - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and our attempts to make Solid Ramjet-powered artillery shells is very much similar to making a rocket-boosted ammo in some other configuration than common one

coming to ATAGS and claims of around 48 km range; they mention it achieved that feat using 'Base Bleed' ammo not with rocket assisted ones; otherwise with this latest Excalibur precision guided shell with rocket motor and all at its base i assume it would also exhibit near 70 km range;

in fact DRDO and IIT-Madras claims with solid ramjet powered shell they are making it to be near 78 km
View attachment 223875

it says , project cost : 9 crores . time plan : 2.5 years

is it being worked on , is this something that exists ?

 

[another_armchair]

not same thing as what is often said about ATAGS;
because here they are launching some latest Excalibur precision guided shell which is also of "Rocket Assisted" kind;
and BB means "Base Bleeding" which technically isn't rocket assisted one; it just has a solid propellant powered 'bleeder' at bottom that leaks out hot gases at the end of the shell to reduce in-flight drag of the ammo which in turn increases its range;
a simple glance over both kind of rounds on their respective wikipedia articles would suffice to give understanding of the basic gist

Base bleed - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Rocket-assisted projectile - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and our attempts to make Solid Ramjet-powered artillery shells is very much similar to making a rocket-boosted ammo in some other configuration than common one

coming to ATAGS and claims of around 48 km range; they mention it achieved that feat using 'Base Bleed' ammo not with rocket assisted ones; otherwise with this latest Excalibur precision guided shell with rocket motor and all at its base i assume it would also exhibit near 70 km range;

in fact DRDO and IIT-Madras claims with solid ramjet powered shell they are making it to be near 78 km
View attachment 223875

I was assuming that the range @AnantS was quoting as achieved by ATAGS was with a 'rocket assisted' shell hence the reply.

There was a video doing the rounds on twitter then of ATAGS firing a VLAP round and achieving the range of ~48-50 kms or more.. can't recollect for sure.

 

[Johny_Baba]

it says , project cost : 9 crores . time plan : 2.5 years

is it being worked on , is this something that exists ?

of course bhai is ramjet powered shell par hi toh DRDO waale thread par thode time pehle discussion hui thi, do try to search around, you may want to see posts of Lonewarrior, Chinmoy and some other members i forgot right now to reach to that

it exists but how much has it progressed so far and is it even available for service as of yet etc is yet to be seen

as far as DRDO and IIT-Madras' efforts in developing it, some valuable input about its possible capabilities were posted by @SwordOfDarkness

70-80km seems too low. From ATAGs, which can fire 50km without RAP, even regular rocket assisted projectiles should go some 70 ish kilometers.

View attachment 223185

This is from IITM study, where gun firing 24 km (seems like range figure for 155x39 gun) normally was estimated to be capable of 90km with Ramjet engine. From ATAGs, if they are able to handle force of launch, this could go ~150km.

 

[AnantS]

Sure you aren't mistaking it for this one?

70 kilometer precision-guided artillery shot at U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground

The first successful test of a 70 km (43 miles) shot with a precision-guided munition took place on December 19, 2020 at U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground. The live fire demonstration used the Excalibur projectile and was the culmination of a campaign of learning on multiple systems. “Not only did...

www.dvidshub.net

US went public with the ^above when there was chatter on twitter among indian defence journos that the atags can reach 70 kms with er rounds. Some of them actually taunted us saying big difference between claims and actually achieving the milestone.

Yes I was mistaken. You and @Johny_Baba are right.

 

[Johny_Baba]

I was assuming that the range @AnantS was quoting as achieved by ATAGS was with a 'rocket assisted' shell hence the reply.

There was a video doing the rounds on twitter then of ATAGS firing a VLAP round and achieving the range of ~48-50 kms or more.. can't recollect for sure.

no prob bhai,

hhmm ATAGS firing V-LAP - basically mating of both base bleed and rocket assisted designs in single package - and there also exists a video of it ?!

i have never heard of it and not even sure we happen to have such a kind of ammo here; as far as i know Germans were the ones who made a successful V-LAP for Pzh-2000 which may have provided it above 60 km range

if you happen to found more about it with ATAGS please do post

 

[Johny_Baba]

since we are talking on different rounds

say, how come we do not have APFSDS style of ammo for howitzers hhmm ? i mean in age of satellite guidance, laser designated targeting and even UAV-Drones based active guidance+targetting and all ha made it really easier to pin-point a target; and these kinds of ammo and kits etc have become quite accurate in hitting these said targets as evident by usage of both modern versions of Excalibur and Krasnopol in current war in Ukraine

so, something like a flying fin-stabilized discarding flechette or sabot out of 155mm barrel speeding towards a target, mated with a laser guidance kit etc...what do you guys say ?

 

[Blood+]

Not going into it so please don’t start an Arjun discussion here

this is long since a dead issue with only 124+118 ordered (don’t think the latter order has actually been placed)

my only point is that whatever shortcomings existed on the 90s/00s design are worth knowing but as we’ve seen with DRDO products development is not static. Mk.1 would’ve been replaced by Mk.2 and by now we could be on Mk.4/5. Look at the Leo, they are on the A7

expecting 100% perfection from day 1,using that as an excuse to delay and hamper orders then running to the open market is peak incompetence or intentional sabotage

Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case when it comes to Arjun and AFVs in general. Just take a look at that abomination that is MkIA.

 

[karn]

Le Army: But you are electric drives change it to Hydraulics drive.

To be fair , that electric drive to hydraulic drive was confirmed to be fake news .

 

[johnj]

since we are talking on different rounds

say, how come we do not have APFSDS style of ammo for howitzers hhmm ? i mean in age of satellite guidance, laser designated targeting and even UAV-Drones based active guidance+targetting and all ha made it really easier to pin-point a target; and these kinds of ammo and kits etc have become quite accurate in hitting these said targets as evident by usage of both modern versions of Excalibur and Krasnopol in current war in Ukraine

so, something like a flying fin-stabilized discarding flechette or sabot out of 155mm barrel speeding towards a target, mated with a laser guidance kit etc...what do you guys say ?

Wait, how to add a sensor in front of dart without reducing its penetration capabilities ?

 

[Chinmoy]

I was expecting this kind of R@ndi R0na after Dinakar Peri article in the thread, but we had to wait till Manu Pubby shows his brilliance to lit some empty drums.

 

[another_armchair]

no prob bhai,

hhmm ATAGS firing V-LAP - basically mating of both base bleed and rocket assisted designs in single package - and there also exists a video of it ?!

i have never heard of it and not even sure we happen to have such a kind of ammo here; as far as i know Germans were the ones who made a successful V-LAP for Pzh-2000 which may have provided it above 60 km range

if you happen to found more about it with ATAGS please do post

Right.. had searched back then but could only find PZH-2000 and Germany had tested that capability. The rest were merely academic papers.

Guess the journo who posted it was gassing. The round left a black smoke trail so it could have well been an ER-BB round which caught someone's fancy and claimed it was VLAP.

 

[NeXoft007]

A bird in the hand and all that…..

always waiting for tomorrow and sacrificing the present is not leadership, it’s cowardice

Gambling the commies aren’t coming when they caught you with your pants down in 2020 but sure wait for the next ‘next generation’ platform then the next then the next…

the Indian military is the epitome of perfect being the enemy of good enough

Indian Military Complex with public, private, JVs have the capability to manufacture at scale, close to 10k rockets per year, in excess of 500 MBTs per year, and a similar number of howitzers is being worked upon. Indigenisation is the magic ingredient. Many things are being worked upon behind the scenes to improve supplies, quality, automation and output. So things can be cranked up at moment's notice. I say DRDO and similar orgs are overall doing great lately with ToTs, sole & joint R&D on sanctioned projects, financing R&Ds on private/ internal TD projects.

 

[abingdonboy]

Indian Military Complex with public, private, JVs have the capability to manufacture at scale, close to 10k rockets per year, in excess of 500 MBTs per year, and a similar number of howitzers is being worked upon. Indigenisation is the magic ingredient. Many things are being worked upon behind the scenes to improve supplies, quality, automation and output. So things can be cranked up at moment's notice. I say DRDO and similar orgs are overall doing great lately with ToTs, sole & joint R&D on sanctioned projects, financing R&Ds on private/ internal TD projects.

Industry isn’t the issue, Indian private sector (even some PSUs) have shown they can produce at unimaginable scale

scale follows FROM orders, this is the entire crux of the issue, it has nothing to do with the products or the companies anymore

the Indian military consistently buys in drips and drabs (if they order at all) which is fine for foreign OEMs who have stable production lines backed by orders from others (including their domestic markets) but these jokers in India order low numbers then b!tch about low production rates

16+26+8 orders total for LCA across 3 different specs before March 2021 compared to 1000s of F35s committed to before day 1

6+6 LUH

10+15 LCH

3+4 P15A/B

124+118 Arjuns

300 ATAGS is a joke

Etc

the biggest curse on Indian defence capability is the Indian military