Indian Army Artillery

[Anshu Attri]

India's artillery woes:

India's artillery woes:

A fresh RFI (Request for Information) for the Indian army's 155 mm/52 caliber towed artillery guns was issued two months back for a record fourth time after the current ongoing process was scrapped, signaling yet again the process going back into the never ending loop of proposals, trails, accusations and cancellations.

There seems no end in sight to the Indian army's artillery modernization. The ghost of Bofor's and corruption continue to haunt the force and the result: the army has not inducted any new piece of artillery in the last two decades since the infamous bofor's scandal. The 400 Bofor's guns bought in the 80's are the latest in the inventory and some of them have been cannibalized for spares to maintain the others. We just don't seem to get over the ghost of Bofor's and the lackluster attitude of the government in general and the defense ministry in particular is further pushing back things when we urgently need to augment the most potent force multiplier and area dominating arm of the land forces.

The government is in the process of rising to new mountain divisions to be deployed in the northeast border but the question is – where are the guns to equip them? In the event of a conflict in the north east or in Kashmir, armored divisions will be greatly limited due to the mountainous terrain and it's the artillery that will play a crucial role in enabling the forward thrust by the infantry which we have seen happen during the Kargil conflict. And with future conflicts being short and swift this assumes even greater importance.

The requirement of the towed guns is about 1580 units, 400 purchased off the shelf and remaining to be license produced in India. The just cancelled process was approved in 2007 and after all the delays two short listed guns were supposed to commence field trials last month for which the guns are in the Phokran test range when it was stalled. The reason is with one of the contender's ST kinetics (gun iFH 2000), Singapore being blacklisted, only BAE Systems (fielding the FH77 B05) was left in the fray, resulting in a single vendor situation and resulted in the cancellation of the process. There is also a requirement of other types of guns as well albeit in lesser numbers but even with them the story is no different.

The army is trying to procure 145 light guns (BAE Systems M777 lightweight howitzer) through the direct Foreign Military Sale (FMS) route from the US for which the process is underway. The other requirements of the army are 145 units of 155 mm/39 Caliber Ultra-Light Howitzers,

 

[Kunal Biswas]

India's own Bofors ready, field trials in progress

..=i+India's own Bofors ready, field trials in progress ..=i+

In a significant development that would provide the much-needed impetus to artillery's firepower, India is ready with an indigenous 155mm, 52-calibre state-of-the-art gun. The Bangalore-based defence public sector undertaking, Bharat Earth Movers Limited, is ready with the wheeled gun and field trials have already started at its testing tracks in the Kolar Gold Fields (KGF), Karnataka.

This development comes in the backdrop of the fact that the artillery has not purchased a long-range gun in about 20 years following the Bofors gun controversy. The Government recently gave the nod to inviting global tenders for the 155mm guns and the proposed contract for over 1,000 guns, besides other range of artillery guns including Howitzers, worth over `20,000 crore.

Talking exclusively to The Pioneer, BEML chairman and managing director VRS Natarajan said they were the nodal processing agency for this gun, which would enhance the lethality of the defence forces. The gun is part of a technology transfer between a Slovakian company, DMD, and BEML to produce this high-precision gun for the Indian armed forces.

Natarajan said, "We have already been made a nodal processing agency for the 155mm, 52-calibre gun which is a state-of-the-art weapon to be inducted by India. We will produce and supply this to the defence forces. It's a technology transfer; India wants to go for a very upgraded tank which is faster, lighter and able to have a greater fire power with lethality."

He also said, "For the wheeled gun project, we have tied up with a Slovakian company, DMD, for a defence offset and the vehicle has already been made available for trial.

The time frame is about three years from the date of order by the defence forces. We expect it to commence in the current year or at most the next year."

According to the BEML chief, the company was also looking at the tracked version of the same gun, which will give better fire power. "We have already set up a state-of-the-art, world-class test track. We have a firing range too," Natarajan said, adding that the PSU was also in the process of setting up infrastructure for the overhauling of T72 and T90 tanks.

According to officials, the 155mm, 52-calibre gun — which is already in use by NATO countries - would augment Indian capabilities. At present, BEML has set up a testing range at KGF and started the trial of Suzana guns. This wheeled gun would increase the artillery power of the Indian Army. The gun's trial evaluation is over and it is waiting for the request for proposal from the Indian Army, the officials added.

The Pioneer :: Home : >> India's own Bofors ready field trials in progress

Originally Posted by Eagle-one:happy_7:


Gr8 News!! :emot112:

 

[prateikf]

no it isnt such a great news because it is about the wheeled guns. the army requires just 180 wheeled guns compared to a requirement of 1600 towed howitzers.
The above article has wrongly said that INDIA'S OWN BOFORS READY. the bofors is towed artillery while the article explicitly says only the wheeled howitzer is ready. there is no mention whatsoever of any towed howitzer.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

no it isnt such a great news because it is about the wheeled guns. the army requires just 180 wheeled guns compared to a requirement of 1600 towed howitzers.
The above article has wrongly said that INDIA'S OWN BOFORS READY. the bofors is towed artillery while the article explicitly says only the wheeled howitzer is ready. there is no mention whatsoever of any towed howitzer.

Yes, Article didn't mention abt towed..
But article also said that Indigenous 155mm/52l gun is ready, It said wheel is under trials and Indian company also looking for tracked variant of the same Gun..
As DRDO given the Job of making 155mm gun and we have received the TOT of the 52cal gun ( Which we didn't have earlier ) than its not difficult to imagine towed, Yes i am assuming

 

[nitesh]

Prateikf is very hard to be pleased . Mate look at the positive side, things are moving instead of being stagnant.

 

[nitesh]

This matter should not be closed here, once bEML strats manufacturing it, funds should be made available for next gen guns straight away with private sector involvement from the beginning, so we don't have to go for shopping again after 10-15 years

 

[pmaitra]

bofor helped us in kargil to great extent like bvr missiles for airforce so so we should get atleast 1000 bofors and we should forgot about scandal atleast for the nations benefit

Sir, I beg to disagree.

While there is no doubt Bofors is a good gun, the problem most critics have is not with the gun itself but with the corrupt financial dealings that were allegedly part of the purchase deal.

 

[pmaitra]

I have a question for everyone:

What differentiates a howitzer from a mortar? Is it merely range or are there significant technical differences?

I would take this opportunity to share a video of the 2S31 Vena Mobile Mortar:

Thanks

 

[Kunal Biswas]

A mortar is used by Infantry coz its portable and effective, A howitzer is used by Infantry support unit..

A Mortar lack range coz of its barrel where a howitzer have a longer barrel so its have better range and accuracy..

A Mortar is lighter so that it can carried in parts by Infantry, where as howitzer cannot and needs vehicle for portability..

Thats one of the reason why 105 are getting replaced by 130..

 

[bengalraider]

@ Kunal- good pictures of the K9 , the Run of the mill K9 is/was not even being considered, what is/was being considered is a sort of desi Firtina, i.e an indianised version of the K9 gun mated to an Arjun chassis . however the last info i have been able to garner is at least 3 months old would ya be able to throw any light on the matter mate?

As for the Zuzana well she's a big girl and i like her mates! but there's only one teensy weensy thing her 60 degree arc of fire does seem deficient when compared to the PZh's 360,but then her light weight does bring her into a whole new category as far as air portability is concerned.

P.S attaching a small magazine on artillery for all you guys ! have fun reading

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@ Kunal- good pictures of the K9 , the Run of the mill K9 is/was not even being considered, what is/was being considered is a sort of desi Firtina, i.e an indianised version of the K9 gun mated to an Arjun chassis . however the last info i have been able to garner is at least 3 months old would ya be able to throw any light on the matter mate?

As for the Zuzana well she's a big girl and i like her mates! but there's only one teensy weensy thing her 60 degree arc of fire does seem deficient when compared to the PZh's 360,but then her light weight does bring her into a whole new category as far as air portability is concerned.

P.S attaching a small magazine on artillery for all you guys ! have fun reading

K9 is a good SPH, And its possible that we may have a desi variant, But i seriously doubt it will be on Arjun chassis coz IA is using limited Arjun MK-1 and MK-2 seems to have a lighter Chassis, So possibility is abt T-72 or MK-2 Chassis..

Right now IA need a 52cal SPH desperately, Keeping that in mind i can assume that Slovaks are likely to win both Wheeled and Track competitions..

 

[prateikf]

I read today in the Indian Express that our army would test the M777 ULH in high altitude conditions later this month. I was wondering if the air force too tested the hercules and navy tested the poseidon aircraft before buying them?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

these test are just eyewash before going shopping for a large no. of foreign equipment.remember indian army has tested spike atgm,it has been testing nag atgm for years,and now it has suddenly decided to go for untested exceedingly costly javelin atgm.similarly IA has been testing arjun mbt for over 2 decades and suddenly it had decided to go for untested t-90 mbt(46 tons) to "counter" probable pakistani aquisition of mia1 abhrams mbt(69 tons).

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Shuvo bhai, INDIA tested Arjun for two years. But INDIAN ARMY has inducted Arjun MBT and also has ordered more of Arjun's. DRDO has designed new version of ArjunMBT. It is known as Arjun MK-II. IA is using NAG atgm too. Nag atgm has been a successful design. Please follow this link to know about Arjun MK-II Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See this link too. You will come to know that IA prefers Arjun MBT when compared to t-90.http://www.brahmand.com/news/DRDO-designing-advanced-version-of-Arjun-MBTs-for-Indian-Army/4325/1/14.html

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

INDIAN NAG atgm is considered to be one of the top missile in its class. See this link to know about NAG atgmNag missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kunal Biswas]

HIMALAYA Sph..

BHIM Sph

Bhim SPH was good in terms of rate of fire also the amount of rounds stored in turret, Anyways i hope DRDO come quick with the new chassis of Arjun mk-2 which will be 7 wheeler..

 

[warriorextreme]

nag is one of the finest ATGM and with high success rate..
also it has been exported and still has great export potential

 

[Kunal Biswas]

the main thing was the range. it was more than 55 km. the denel artillery has the longest range in the world. the new denel g6-52 has a range of more than 70 km. only if we had bought the g6

@Prateikf
It depends on the ammo fired by the gun, for example K9 gun can archive the range of 100kms with guided round, G6 can archive 55km with BB, without i think it can get 40-45kms with normal round, It doesn't matter whose 52cal barrel we use but it depends what rounds we use, with BB ( Bleed Base ) any 52cal gun can archive 50+kms..

 

[bengalraider]

@Prateikf
It depends on the ammo fired by the gun, for example K9 gun can archive the range of 100kms with guided round, G6 can archive 55km with BB, without i think it can get 40-45kms with normal round, It doesn't matter whose 52cal barrel we use but it depends what rounds we use, with BB ( Bleed Base ) any 52cal gun can archive 50+kms..

@Kunal- There is more to this story than any simple argument on 52 cal barrels,The South Africans actually have perfected the EFRB concept that was first developed by Prof Gerald Bull, not because the South Africans are better at this sort of design but simply because they have had longer time to study the EFRB concept that was first brought into artillery in the shape of the GC-45 howitzer.What Prof Bull did with the GC-45 design in the 70's was so revolutionary that every artillery piece built using that concept as the base has out ranged other guns around the world ever since.let me list the innovations out for you

1)Prof Bull effectively increased the maximum muzzle velocity attained by a shell by reducing the size of the "driving band" he did so by adding nub "fins near the front of the shell to keep the shell centered in the barrel while firing.Although this concept effectively reduced accuracy in the 70's that has now been addressed by DENEL.

2)Prof Bull's south African partner Armscor then redesigned the arty piece so that it could take larger powder loads that conversely led to larger barrel velocities and larger shell ranges(i have never completely been able to understand the complete physics behind this particular concept).

With normal JBMoU EFRB rounds the G6 does around 33km While the K9 using comparable ammo does around 30km.
I would agree with you saying that with BB rounds any 52cal can achieve 50+kms , however the facts still stand that no other gun in the world comes within 10kms of a G6-52 Using extended range V-LAP ammo .the record of the G6-52 at 67kms sustained fire still stands.

One question when did the K9 hit 100kms?The max i have read about is 56km!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I would agree with you saying that with BB rounds any 52cal can achieve 50+kms , however the facts still stand that no other gun in the world comes within 10kms of a G6-52 Using extended range V-LAP ammo .the record of the G6-52 at 67kms sustained fire still stands.

One question when did the K9 hit 100kms?The max i have read about is 56km!

@Bengalraider,
Denel G652 is undoubtedly one of the best SPGH in the world, But as we blacklisted the DENELs therefore their is no future till the Ban is remove, Now we dont have DENEL`s G6 but still thier is a hope with Slovakians, Once we have the SPH made and distributed than we must purchase good quality of long range rounds from US and South Koreans..

Regarding K9, the ammo is made by POONGSAN Cooperation in SK , heres a pic:

http://gespenst.egloos.com/
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?t=5115&page=27
http://www.poongsan.co.kr/eng/product/pro_2_1.html

Though the designation of projectile is in Korean and its hard to find the full specifications..



Besides, BEML conformed us by saying that we have TOT of 52cal barrel, then i think Gov shouldn't lose this opportunity to make towed, tracked and wheeled version for Indian Army Arty regt, Once we manufacture the SPH than their is painful process of distribution within regiments that will take at-least a year or more..