Indian Army Artillery

[arya]

Believe it or not MP salary was long due for an increase.
While most of them are babu's who will bleed the nation dry.

There are a few who legitimately , have trouble managing on Rs-16,000 . Your have to pay your staff through your own pockets.

If ever want honest and proper politicians , we need to make it more accessible to more people then the wealthy.

This is a very small step towards that.

I am not naive , i know in the short term this bill was passed only so that Babu's can bleed more cash.
But there has also been a legitimate need for an increase in salary as well.




What can be done , private sector is far more desirable then military positions.
There is too much demand and Air force is having trouble attracting enough people.

There are many causes for this , not just Air force pay and life style.
The Raw increase in demand for educated workforce.
Lack of interest in military service
Not enough people entering and exiting the education system

well why they are there for money or to serve the nation the fact is there is only 2-5% MP are honest

just ask from siwss bank they will tell you how much Indian money is there locked

I don't even know what your trying to make here.
People are entitled to question or ask for such things. It is up to government to decide on them.

don't you think govt is not positive toward our force our engg , Doctor our teenager don't want to work in force why is it not govt duty to create interest what wil be our future if our youngster will not take interest in force

Corruption in Army and MOD , with bofors scandal hovering over everyone.
What can be done ?

At least not they are making our own gun.

so on the name of corruption you will play with nation security is it a joke

Air force is getting Hundreds of new fighter aircraft,
Name me other nations that are acquiring so many aircraft in one decade.

tell me what is our ratio against china i think 1 :4 and how will we deal two front

if you know our squn number is less and we are losing planes in crashes and our AIF is using old planes

don't you think we need strong AF for growing nation

We should help ourselves ,
rather then always asking for this to be done and this and that.

i like this line

 

[ppgj]

MLRS is also artillery. .....

If you read the comparison i gave earlier, an MLRS is more effective than a howitzer. It is able to fire a variety of munitions. India has its own system called Pinaka and Russian Smerch.

Yusuf

i agree with you that MLRS or MRLS or MBRLs are "artillery systems". however their functions are some what different. IOW different systems with slightly different objectives like -

MLRS are not so accurate and replenishing takes more time post shooting a salvo and are used in salvos to "saturate and neutralise" a limited but a large area. they can wipe out both men and machine concentrations in the targetted area. so to say an "area denial" or an "area suppression" system.

OTOH "artillery guns" are a lot more accurate and are used for sort of pin pointed targetting like a bunker, building or other assets. replenishment time is less.

both have different designated roles and each can not replace the other while both complement each other and both are required.

both can have guided versions to increase their CEP though cost forbids it. however the efficacy of these guided ones are still in doubt if one were to go by the IA's "Krasnopol" experience. may be not worth atleast for some time to come.

fwiw. :happy_2:

 

[Yusuf]

MRLS too have evolved. They are used in bunker buster mode as well. They can take out convoys in air burst mode. Modern systems are pretty much accurate. We are working on guided rockets too.

Again I don't say we don't need guns, but may be not to the tune of thousands. May be another FMS kinda thing where you just buy over 500 and also increase the induction rate of MLRS. In kargil these systems were extensively and effectively used. All of it against entrenched enemy.

 

[prateikf]

the DRDO chief Saraswat is saying "The differences (between competing guns) are minuscule and people would like to exploit those minuscule differences". is he so foolish as to not know the difference between the competing guns? the isaeli gun from Soltam had burst its barrels during the desert trails and had failed to meet many of the Army's requirements. only the bofors gun had met and even exceeded all the army's requirements as proved by the army's own reports and during it's performance at kargil.
hope the DRDO wont repeat it's tejas, arjun and trishul performance. 30 years in the making, huge cost and time overruns, and still years away from being inducted in large numbers.

 

[arya]

well govt is just playing with nation security

 

[nitesh]

the DRDO chief Saraswat is saying "The differences (between competing guns) are minuscule and people would like to exploit those minuscule differences". is he so foolish as to not know the difference between the competing guns? the isaeli gun from Soltam had burst its barrels during the desert trails and had failed to meet many of the Army's requirements. only the bofors gun had met and even exceeded all the army's requirements as proved by the army's own reports and during it's performance at kargil.
hope the DRDO wont repeat it's tejas, arjun and trishul performance. 30 years in the making, huge cost and time overruns, and still years away from being inducted in large numbers.

What exactly is this post serve?

 

[nitesh]

well govt is just playing with nation security

Because you are worrying about it, now put something sensible or stop ranting.

 

[arya]

Because you are worrying about it, now put something sensible or stop ranting.

well dear i don't want to rant but do you really think govt is doing good do you really think we have shortage of artillery

just tell me how will our force fight while we have shortage of officer and even they don't have the weapons

 

[nitesh]

well dear i don't want to rant but do you really think govt is doing good do you really think we have shortage of artillery

just tell me how will our force fight while we have shortage of officer and even they don't have the weapons

don't you know what is the reason for shortage for artillery? Have you gone through the thread? And please stick on topic don't bring unrelated things in to this thread

 

[Tshering22]

DRDO!!? Oh great..... now expect the artillery guns to be delivered to Indian Army by 2040,..if they're lucky.

 

[nitesh]

DRDO!!? Oh great..... now expect the artillery guns to be delivered to Indian Army by 2040,..if they're lucky.

And source of your conclusion is?

 

[gogbot]

Believe it or not MP salary was long due for an increase.
While most of them are babu's who will bleed the nation dry.

There are a few who legitimately , have trouble managing on Rs-16,000 . Your have to pay your staff through your own pockets.

If ever want honest and proper politicians , we need to make it more accessible to more people then the wealthy.

This is a very small step towards that.

I am not naive , i know in the short term this bill was passed only so that Babu's can bleed more cash.
But there has also been a legitimate need for an increase in salary as well.

What can be done , private sector is far more desirable then military positions.
There is too much demand and Air force is having trouble attracting enough people.

There are many causes for this , not just Air force pay and life style.
The Raw increase in demand for educated workforce.
Lack of interest in military service
Not enough people entering and exiting the education system

well why they are there for money or to serve the nation the fact is there is only 2-5% MP are honest
just ask from siwss bank they will tell you how much Indian money is there locked

Your just stating rhetoric. And media drama's

People have to learn to accept the political landscape in India and work within it ,
Changing it for the better is what many people want , but it's not going happen over night , or even over a decade. We have systemic corruption that has developed over many decades. , it going to take even more time bring it back down to acceptable levels. The situation is far more complex than the Black and White picture you want to paint. It's not just the MP's that are corrupt but people serving in every level of government office(Part of the reasons is because of Low salaries coupled with lack of accountability) , people can be motivated by more than greed and just because you take kickbacks does not mean no work get's done.

Rather than always focus on the corruption and try and hit it with a hammer , or get disillusioned with politics when you hear about it.
You should also give some focus , to the positive decisions taken by our government , and support more such initiatives.

If all people did was focus entirely on corruption and Babuism for all our problems . Nothing would ever get done.

I don't even know what your trying to make here.
People are entitled to question or ask for such things. It is up to government to decide on them.

don't you think govt is not positive toward our force our engg , Doctor our teenager don't want to work in force why is it not govt duty to create interest what will be our future if our youngster will not take interest in force

what do you want them to do,
Govt is responsible for what people feel and think ?

It's expensive if it want's to offer incentives as good as Pvt sector.
It already cost's several crores to train our officer's.

There are much better places where money can be invested.

In the mean time , it is up to the individual branches to attract more volunteers. How they do it is up to their initiative and need.

Corruption in Army and MOD , with bofors scandal hovering over everyone.
What can be done ?

At least not they are making our own gun.

so on the name of corruption you will play with nation security is it a joke

I can't even understand your point.

Air force is getting Hundreds of new fighter aircraft,
Name me other nations that are acquiring so many aircraft in one decade.

tell me what is our ratio against china i think 1 :4 and how will we deal two front
if you know our squn number is less and we are losing planes in crashes and our AIF is using old planes
don't you think we need strong AF for growing nation

China also has a lot more money then us, And a stronger industrial base.
Their military budget is at least 2 or 3 X bigger. And their treats is the US. which has a budget almost 10 x theirs

You want us to compete with them in foolhardy arm's race. We will end up bankrupting ourselves.

I am well aware of Current IAF force levels.
but like i said i am also aware they are in the process of inducting almost 400 planes this decade. And only phasing out some 150 aircraft at best.

IAF is doing everything that can be done.

They are acquiring more conventional platforms.
They are acquiring more UAV's
They are investing in UCAV's
They are investing in 5th gen platforms
They are investing in their own A2A missiles
They are acquiring more helicopters
They are acquiring more AWACS
They are acquiring more transport aircraft

What is it you want from them ,
Training 1000's of pilots and even more technicians and ground crew , store 100's of spares(Missiles , parts , munitions) , creating logistics for dozens of new planes.

How long do you expect all this is going to take ?

I have not seen IAF neglecting to take action, in any field.
They already have so many things on the board. It's hard to believe what else they can add to it.

 

[nitesh]

ok guys now concentrate on the topic of the thread rather then derailing it with un related discussions

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

Guys just relax about artillery guns, I know we are late and very late indeed, but we cannot do much about past. Take my word Army is way to serious about fillig this gap and they are aggressively working on it. There are some process that will take time and this time period cannot be reduced. Trails needs to happen guns needs to be tested etc, last time SKT was not cooperative to provide their guns for trails. Even for M777 USA says that they do not provide guns for trails and asked us to lease 2 guns instead and we have started that process. I have been told by people of MOD and Army that we will make good progress on this in next 2 years. Hopefully we will not have war by that time, as it looks like now.

 

[nitesh]

Prateikf, I am seeing lot of comments from your side and I am asking you to prove your allegations from quite some time now which you have not done till now, you have been taking names by calling leaders of our country fools and all. Do you really believe you are the only smart person available in India and rest all are fools. If yes then change your thinking fast. Consider this post as warning for you, that if you continue repeating the same rhetoric then suitable action will be taken against you

 

[ppgj]

Ray sir/Kunal Sir,

a couple of queries. this is wrt say plains where WLRs can work fine and the respective guns/MBRLs are within the range of each other.

1. how many number of shells (salvos?) an artilllery gun/MBRL can fire before the gun position/location is triangulated and located by an enemy WLR??

which leads to -

2. when we speak of "scoot" ability of the artillery gun, what is the distance it has to scoot to avoid counter fire - post position being triangulated by the enemy WLR??

3. also won't the enemy fire shells beyond the diameter of the scoot to take out the gun??

so, how this issue is overcome in a battle??

TIA.

 

[RPK]

BAE Systems to bid for 155mm towed howitzers programme

The company's offer will be based on the FH77 B05 155mm howitzer, and a significant proportion will be manufactured in India to meet the specific needs of the Indian Army.




BAE Systems has submitted a response to the Indian Ministry of Defence's latest RFI for towed 155mm howitzers, following previous tenders which were cancelled due to the inability of other potential suppliers to meet the tender conditions.


The company's offer will be based on the FH77 B05 155mm howitzer, and a significant proportion will be manufactured in India to meet the specific needs of the Indian Army.



The new RFI was issued by MoD in last month, bringing an end to the previous procurement process that had reached the summer field trial phase. BAE Systems and the FH77 B05 was present and ready to take part in those cancelled trials in Rajasthan and the FH77 B05 currently remains in India ready to recommence the process.



FH77 B05 is a more powerful, updated and computerised version of the howitzer that performed so well in the Kargil conflict. FH77B05 has significantly greater range than its predecessor, but retains many of the features that endeared the system to its users in the Indian Army.



Andrew Gallagher managing director and chief executive of BAE Systems India said, "BAE Systems is confident that the FH77 B05 is the best heavy towed howitzer in the world today and meets the requirements of the Indian Army.



Gallagher continued, "If selected to meet this urgent need for the Indian Army, our FH77 howitzer will be largely manufactured by Defence Land Systems India, our joint venture with Mahindra and we hope this will be the first step to establishing this business as an artillery centre of excellence, for BAE Systems globally. Furthermore it will create highly skilled local jobs in India."



Anand Mahindra, vice chairman and managing director of the Mahindra Group said, "We're proud to be associated with a defence system that has such a history of defending our great nation. Working on this programme will bring world-leading artillery technology to India for the first time, setting in motion the process of making Defence Land Systems India a global force in artillery."



India is BAE Systems' newest home market and the company is committed to a programme of investment and technology transfer in support of its strategy to become a major domestic player in the Indian defence sector

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Ray sir/Kunal Sir,

a couple of queries. this is wrt say plains where WLRs can work fine and the respective guns/MBRLs are within the range of each other.

1. how many number of shells (salvos?) an artilllery gun/MBRL can fire before the gun position/location is triangulated and located by an enemy WLR??

which leads to -

2. when we speak of "scoot" ability of the artillery gun, what is the distance it has to scoot to avoid counter fire - post position being triangulated by the enemy WLR??

3. also won't the enemy fire shells beyond the diameter of the scoot to take out the gun??

so, how this issue is overcome in a battle??

TIA.

If there is a likelyhood of WLR, then the guns will be more spread out on the ground. This is a commanders decision when they find out about the enemy threat. At the moment, there isn't much need for having scoot ability because where Artillery is deployed by most forces, there isn't WLR.

One round should be enough to get an approximate position. The second adjusting round would confirm it.

If you think about shooting outside of the 'scoot', it would take 10 times more rounds to do cover the larger area, this isn't viable, and could mean hitting civilian targets.


To be more Precise :

1. It takes one rd only for a WLR to produce a 13 figure grid solution. A WLR, on average, will take about 0.4 sec to determine the point of origin and the point of impact (it depends on the system at what range).

As for how many rounds you can fire depends on your weapon-system and on the flight time of the rds fired by the CBF unit.

2. This depends largely on the weapon systems and doctrine of the adversary.

3. If you move for, say 500m, it will take an immense amount of ordnance to cover this circular area with a radius of 500m. At which point it will become uneconomical to blindly, and arbitrarily, plaster areas with ordnance (unless you can afford it by having huge amounts of CBF units available of course).



For Example: After receiving the fire order where we move up to the firing location, fire 8 rds and are on the move again (with SPH) in a high intensity environment against a adversary that has the same capabilities as we do or is better equipped.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

BAE Throws Bofors Hat Back Into The Ring

Well, this was inevitable. For a record fourth time, the Bofors FH77-B05-L52 gun has been offered for India's 155-mm towed competition for 1,580 guns. Essentially a reiteration of an offer it has gotten painfully used to putting on the table, BAE Systems was one of the recipients of a fresh RFI that was issued recently, effectively signalling the cancellation of the earlier competition.

In a statement today, BAE Systems said it had, "ubmitted a response to the Indian Ministry of Defence's latest RFI for towed 155mm howitzers, following previous tenders which were cancelled due to the inability of other potential suppliers to meet the tender conditions. The company's offer will be based on the FH77 B05 155mm howitzer, and a significant proportion will be manufactured in India to meet the specific needs of the Indian Army."

The other potential suppliers mentioned in the statement is actually just one supplier -- ST Kinetics. A few days ago, ST Kinetics' India campaign chief Brigadier General Patrick Choy told me that his company's gun, the iFH-2000, needed only six additional days of range testing with Indian ammunition to meet all tender conditions, but there was no response to this request, possibly as a result of the blacklist recommendation which swam into view around that time. He also claims that his team was given 10 days to calibrate their gun (they had requested 14 days), and that a combination of rain-induced flooding and an IAF-Army exercise stole them of six effective days of allocated range time, giving them only four effective days to complete the calibration.

Anand Mahindra, vice chairman and managing director of the Mahindra Group (which BAE Systems partners in India for artillery and specialty vehicles) said, "We're proud to be associated with a defence system that has such a history of defending our great nation. Working on this programme will bring world-leading artillery technology to India for the first time, setting in motion the process of making Defence Land Systems India a global force in artillery."

The question is, of course whether India will ever buy another Bofors gun. The funny thing is, India's blacklist (or potential blacklist) runs like a who's who of the global artillery business -- Denel, Soltam, Rheinmetall and now ST Kinetics, leaving the Bofors gun with practically no competition. That hasn't helped the gun so far, though.

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence

 

[prateikf]

New RFP Expected For Indian Wheeled Guns | AVIATION WEEK


And the circus continues....