Indian Army Artillery

[agentperry]

i told people at the time of trials of guns in pokhran sometime back that 155 mm 52 cal gun is in foray but no one believed- said that it is 39 and 45 cal gun and not 52...now see

 

[Tronic]

When you refer to a "jeep" is that an M151 or another indigenous vehicle?

The Mahindra MM550:

 

[Zebra]

When you refer to a "jeep" is that an M151 or another indigenous vehicle?

Utility vehicles made by.....Mahindra..... Mahindra & Mahindra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On top that,
Please see post #1107. In general, any utility vehicle is called as jeep.

Like- Maruti Gypsy.....

 

[Zebra]

Howitzer bombshell angers South Korea

PUBLISHED: 04 Jun 2012 00:01:52 | UPDATED: 04 Jun 2012 04:20:52
Geoffrey Barker

Howitzer bombshell angers South Korea

 

[W.G.Ewald]

The Mahindra MM550:

Cf. original WWII Jeep, the Willys MB/Ford GPW:

Notice the half-track in the background.

 

[Zebra]

Restoration of an Indian Army version, Mahindra Jeep in the UK. (converted to as near possible, a copy of an Indian military Jeep)

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Getting off-topic, but here is a link to Mahindra USA.

Mahindra USA

 

[Tronic]

Cf. original WWII Jeep, the Willys MB/Ford GPW:

Notice the half-track in the background.

I love the Willy. I have an original at my farmhouse (Many in India buy Mahindra Jeeps and convert them into Willys). Originally owned by my grandfather, we later converted it to a diesel engine. It's still a darling of the family.

 

[Archer]

Exactly. LFG is not exactly "light". If Brits and French can do it in the 80s then DRDO should be able to do it now. Not really rocket science but good metallurgy.

Its not just about heli trans portability but also the mobility after that. IA uses Maruti Gypsies with 1300cc engines. A 3 tonne gun will be a pain in the butt to mobilize on the relatively narrow roads in the mountains or one has a employ a AL stallion which could have been used otherwise.

DRDO cannot work on it unless the Army asks for it. And the OFB shows interest in it. For DRDO to do something like this and then the Army to declare that they will be releasing a new GSQR (see the AD gun saga - GSQR changed some 6-7 times) or asking for an import, while the OFB doesn't care because anyhow it is the designated manufacturer with assured margin for import, is pointless. One of the hard lessons the DRDO has learnt is that in the Indian MIC, it cannot take up "proactive" projects unless the user is very interested in it. Take a look at what happened to Tank-ex. Or the AD gun. They went nowhere and CAG censured DRDO for taking these up without firm user requirement and hence commitment.

Comparing them to STK etc is useless. Those commercial companies either develop a few protos and then hold out for user interest to fully flesh out the product, or develop it per their own designated R&D budget and then market them to interested parties. In the case of DRDO, its business model is different. It has to work within stated requirements of what the user wants and what the manufacturers want.

If the Indian Army anyhow wants to replace all its 105mm and 130mm guns with 155mm as was the original plan, the DRDO would definitely invite CAG censure if it were to continue working on the 105mm gun, develop it further, spend more money on trialling it, only to have the Army say - "we never wanted this, so why did you do it"?

Funding is an issue. DRDO has an approx ~30% funding shortfall every year. This year too they got around seventy percent of what they had asked for.

So, they have to prioritize those projects which at least have a good chance of getting inducted and those that are already launched.

 

[Archer]

Std Committee on Defence 2012

Secretary R&D further informed that DRDO asked for Rs. 14.848 crore but was
allocated only Rs. 10,014 crore last year. This year we proposed for Rs. 14,463 crore but
only Rs. 10,635 crore were allocated. This allocation would not be sufficient for progressing
all projects simultaneously. Initially, certain project activities would need prioritization and
additional funds would be required at a later stage

The UPA Govt is a fiscal and administrative disaster. Good at taking credit, lousy at providing resources while it splurges them for votes,,,

 

[san]

Std Committee on Defence 2012

Secretary R&D further informed that DRDO asked for Rs. 14.848 crore but was
allocated only Rs. 10,014 crore last year. This year we proposed for Rs. 14,463 crore but
only Rs. 10,635 crore were allocated. This allocation would not be sufficient for progressing
all projects simultaneously. Initially, certain project activities would need prioritization and
additional funds would be required at a later stage

The UPA Govt is a fiscal and administrative disaster. Good at taking credit, lousy at providing resources while it splurges them for votes,,,

Thanks Archer for bringing some facts on DRDO and its' budget. Rs 10,635 is less than $2 billion ( 5% or less compared to China) and we expect them to design all the world's best technology. There are many comments on DRDO in this forum without having slightest knowledge on engineering R&D that sometimes really frustrating.

 

[agentperry]

Thanks Archer for bringing some facts on DRDO and its' budget. Rs 10,635 is less than $2 billion ( 5% or less compared to China) and we expect them to design all the world's best technology. There are many comments on DRDO in this forum without having slightest knowledge on engineering R&D that sometimes really frustrating.

i highlighted the fact again and again but would like to come up with it again- DRDO BUDGET IS LESS THAN LG AND SAMSUNG INDIA CENTERS WHO DEVELOPED MOBILES AND TV IN 2 BILLION DOLLAR LEAVE ASIDE FIGHTERS AND FRIDATES

 

[blueblood]

DRDO cannot work on it unless the Army asks for it. And the OFB shows interest in it. For DRDO to do something like this and then the Army to declare that they will be releasing a new GSQR (see the AD gun saga - GSQR changed some 6-7 times) or asking for an import, while the OFB doesn't care because anyhow it is the designated manufacturer with assured margin for import, is pointless. One of the hard lessons the DRDO has learnt is that in the Indian MIC, it cannot take up "proactive" projects unless the user is very interested in it. Take a look at what happened to Tank-ex. Or the AD gun. They went nowhere and CAG censured DRDO for taking these up without firm user requirement and hence commitment.

Comparing them to STK etc is useless. Those commercial companies either develop a few protos and then hold out for user interest to fully flesh out the product, or develop it per their own designated R&D budget and then market them to interested parties. In the case of DRDO, its business model is different. It has to work within stated requirements of what the user wants and what the manufacturers want.

If the Indian Army anyhow wants to replace all its 105mm and 130mm guns with 155mm as was the original plan, the DRDO would definitely invite CAG censure if it were to continue working on the 105mm gun, develop it further, spend more money on trialling it, only to have the Army say - "we never wanted this, so why did you do it"?

Funding is an issue. DRDO has an approx ~30% funding shortfall every year. This year too they got around seventy percent of what they had asked for.

So, they have to prioritize those projects which at least have a good chance of getting inducted and those that are already launched.

I am not even sure how to reply to this ignorant post of yours. I guess you are still living in the licence raj.
Most major armies who long standardized their arty to 155 mm are still using 105 mm in their mountain and airbourne units.

Apart from the "mainstream" products like Arjun, many labs of DRDO worked on other things and promote them to Army like their literally crappy bio toilets for Siachen or their mosquito repellent creams that don't work.

You might be a fan of Chinese model i.e. to wait for the indigenous products for decades when they were commercially available the whole time meanwhile your pilots are flying mig-19s in the 90s. It's not the DRDO nerd whose life is at stake at the border. Army is there to defend the nation not the pride of a crappy institution which cannot deliver anything on time.

Why is DRDO afraid of the competition? Sack up and prove the critics wrong. As for the funding, cry me a river. There are plenty of Indian organizations who making things work with their meager resources, DRDO is not one of them. Entire budget of IAF and IN is less than the money US spent on air conditioning in Astan and Iraq.

 

[skumar7777]

The UPA Govt is a fiscal and administrative disaster. Good at taking credit, lousy at providing resources while it splurges them for votes,,,

Off topic but I would like to add that the UPA leadership is too busy trying
- to figure out the next scam
- to get out from the current scams
- to ensure their loot so far is out of reach of the next government

You cannot expect a barely literate degree fudging Italian to be concerned about India's defence requirements.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am not even sure how to reply to this ignorant post of yours.

There is nothing wrong with the post, Archer simply posted the same points as told by me but with higher details..

There is nothing ignorant in his post, 105mm is work of OFB not DRDO..

 

[Neil]

THE INDIAN ARMY AND ITS ARTILLERY by DEBALINA CHATTERJEE

 

[blueblood]

There is nothing wrong with the post, Archer simply posted the same points as told by me but with higher details..

There is nothing ignorant in his post, 105mm is work of OFB not DRDO..

Mate we ain't Chinese. It is not our policy to wait for the home grown products to be developed. Artillery is one classic example about the sheer incompetence of OFB. No one is stopping DRDO from developing anything except their crappy management. When much smaller and internationally isolated countries like Iran and Argentina can field their 155 mm howitzers DRDO better have a good reason for not doing so.

DRDO fanboys are always ready to jump the gun that Army is corrupt and Congress is a bitch. Meanwhile DRDO is unable to provide a simple assault rifle which can compete globally. Leave the tall claims aside about Arjun and LCA being world class, give me a decent rifle or even a handgun and then we shall talk.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Mate we ain't Chinese. It is not our policy to wait for the home grown products to be developed. Artillery is one classic example about the sheer incompetence of OFB. No one is stopping DRDO from developing anything except their crappy management. When much smaller and internationally isolated countries like Iran and Argentina can field their 155 mm howitzers DRDO better have a good reason for not doing so.

DRDO fanboys are always ready to jump the gun that Army is corrupt and Congress is a bitch. Meanwhile DRDO is unable to provide a simple assault rifle which can compete globally. Leave the tall claims aside about Arjun and LCA being world class, give me a decent rifle or even a handgun and then we shall talk.

The way i see, you seems to be just basing from last few pages, calling other ignorant..

Cant you read from last posts of mine and Archer that there are no initiative projects, Only allowed unless GSQR hands requirements ?



No one here in this time posted anything about politics and Corruption in army yet, Unless you are only one talking here..

Have you ever handle a AR ? You think DRDO and OFB are for its PR ? ....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Coming to the TGS competition, the principal bidders are expected to be the TRAJAN (a towed version of the Caesar) that is being proposed by prime contractor Nexter Systems of France and its Indian industrial partner Larsen & Toubro, the FH-77B05L52 from the Mahindra Defence Systems/BAE Systems consortium, and the ATHOS-2052 from prime contractor ELBIT Systems (which now owns Soltam Systems) and its Indian industrial partner, the Kalyani Group. Both TGS contenders have been invited for competitive mobility-cum-firing trials on a no-cost no-commitment basis, which are expected to be held between this December and next June. It remains to be seen whether or not the FH-77B05L52 will take part in the trials. RFPs for the motorised MGS and for upgrading the existing M-46 field guns to 155mm/45-cal standard have yet to be issued, although RFIs were issued two years ago!

Which then brings us to the future of the inventory of existing 39-cal FH-77B TGS. Depending on whom to believe, it would seem that the MoD's OFB-/BEL-developed 155X45 proposal for an upgrade package that will transform the existing FH-77B into a 155mm/45-cal howitzer will have to be subjected to competitive trials against the re-engineered GHN-45 155mm/45-cal TGS now being developed by the Kalyani Group with the help of ELBIT Systems. The moot question here is: can India afford to have such cost-prohibitive competitions involving local military-industrial entities on a no-cost no-commitment basis, or should a well thought-out market segmentation procedure be practiced in the interests of deriving win-win solutions within the shortest possible timeframe?

TRISHUL

 

[blueblood]

Kunal, I have always appreciated your knowledge but you need to be rational this time.

Regarding, the GSQR issue, army is upgrading itself and issuing many GLOBAL tenders. Is DRDO scared of competeting with the very best of the industry?

Artillery

Tender for artillery modernization was out from 2001. Where is DRDO's entrant? Is it opertational? I don't think so. So whilst the tender was out there for 11 years, DRDO still don't have an operational gun.


As of January 2012 it is understood that the Metamorphosis upgrade remained at the prototype stage. So it is still a prototype 9 years after the initiation of the project.

Upgraded 155 mm/45-calibre Metamorphosis artillery system (India) - Jane's Armour and Artillery

As the military top brass desperately look around for solutions to the crippling shortage of artillery guns, they stumbled upon the fact that India actually has the entire drawings of the Bofors guns, and had paid for the transfer of technology to manufacture the gun in India.

But the Ordnance Factory Board sat on the drawings all these years, never attempting to make the gun in India.

Bofors reloaded: Defence ministry stung again - Times Of India

What the crappy Indian media failed to mention that post Kargil, Army was forced to import 180 M-46 guns from Russia. All because OFB was unaware of the blue prints and DRDO was waiting for an invitation to join the party.


INSAS

Since accroding to you INSAS is a mighty fine product so why on Earth is army hellbent to get rid of it? A simple question mate, is INSAS comparable to the standard issue rifles of major armies like M-16, M-4, G-3 etc?

Army wants INSAS rifles replaced urgently

Army wants INSAS rifles replaced urgently

Army to buy new improved assault rifles to replace INSAS guns

Army to buy new improved assault rifles to replace INSAS guns


CARBINES

Indian Army plans to purchase 44,618 close-quarter battle (CQB) carbines and 33.6 million rounds of ammunition.

India; Army to launch CQB carbine tender

Where is DRDO's entrant? Is DRDO still waiting for the invitation?


Sniper Rifles


Army hunts for new sniper rifles for infantry battalions.

Army hunts for new sniper rifles for infantry battalions : North, News - India Today

QRSAM

Defence Ministry has proposed a $ 2.4 billion deal for the Indian Army for the procurement of Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missiles (QRSAMs).

Defence Ministry Proposes QR-SAMs for the Army and Dornier Aircraft for IAF



Each and every one of the above mentioned was/is a global tender which means no one is stopping DRDO or OFB to compete for them.

Here is a article worth reading.

India can make an extremely sophisticated 8,000-km long missile a year ahead of schedule but takes more than 30 years to make a tank or a fighter aircraft. The success in making the missile ahead of schedule is because of leadership focus and transparency in process. The missile program is under the PMO (Prime Minister's Office) and dedicated scientists. Other projects like the tank, guns and fighter jets are under multiple agencies exercising control, and the user shifting demands along with careless management, which cause delay. This has cost India huge sums in foreign purchases as well as subverted the concept of self-reliance.

DRDO makes missiles faster than tanks