Indian Army Artillery

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

There're something called Truck mounted guns & Wheeled guns....which combine the towing and the gun into one system!

Can you do math on how many bulls will be required to tow an ATAGS? I am not able to compute the horse power of a bull!!

There are several problems with tracked guns.

• They need good terrain to be moved whereas towed guns can be towed by donkeys and bulls in difficult terrains
• Towing by bulls is not hard as the bulls only need to tow it for 2-3km in rough patches where the roads don't extend. So, it will take 1-2 hour per gun to be towed. Then the same bulls can town another gun into position in another 1-2 hour. But tracked guns can't be taken to such places
• Towed guns can be mounted on trucks and pulled along. Tracked guns need its own engine system to travel. A single truck can go on repeated to and fro motion to take multiple towed artillery. But making a separate truck or vehicle for each gun is very expensive
• Towed guns break down less as there are less moving parts. In tracked guns, there are additional moving parts which can break down more often.
• In tracked guns, problems with the vehicle can affect entire gun whereas in towed artillery, if truck gets broken dow, the artillery will be tied to another truck and towed.

It's not a question of can Kalyani make or not...it's just a question of having the required forging machines! OFB has them because they've been forging gun barrels for decades!
Kalyani did import such tools....yet the ATAGS workshare for Kalyani did not involve barrel forging!
Of course, Kalyani can do it....how else will Bharat 52 or ATHOS be 'made in India' if ever the order is placed?

Making barrels is not easy. The barrels have to withstand extreme pressure and also not bend on its own weight. Imagine the pressure it withstands to launch 20kg projectile to over 40km! Making such high end metallurgy is not easy. So, it takes lot of R&D to make the barrels of 152mm guns. Smaller guns are relatively easier to make.

Sir, Why does it have to fall on Kalyani. What did DODOs and OFB do?

India Rare Earth Limited was established in 1950 (like OFB) under DAE. Mishra Dhatu Nigam has also been working under MoD for donkeys years. Now, Indian companies are extracting and exporting abundant raw material to make Titanium from Kerala and Orissa. I think India has started making adequate quantities of Titanium.

India makes one of the finest aluminum in the world including aircraft / automobile grade.

It should not be difficult to cast out a Titanium barrel / very light alloy barrel and carriage. Bharat Forge of Kalyani has established one of the world class casting / metal factory in Pune on land stolen from Army. They can do it. DRDO is busy making ABM and OFB their bunglows. Army is no ones baby.

But this forum people will blame poor generals for all ills India faces.

DRDO developed the barrel for Dhanush and it is quite good.. But making titanium barrel is not easy. t is not pure titanium but an alloy. So, finding out the exact composition of the alloy is difficult. Also, the process of making it very resilient is hard. These things have to be done by DRDO. Private companies are incapable of R&D as they run on short term profit motive.

It is not the generals but Congress run by foreign agents who are to be blamed.

Titanium metallurgy is very difficult. Plus metal is very expensive. Primary source is Russia.

We have titanium in India itself. Recently titanium sponge production has started in Kerala.

 

[Enquirer]

There are several problems with tracked guns.

• They need good terrain to be moved whereas towed guns can be towed by donkeys and bulls in difficult terrains
• Towing by bulls is not hard as the bulls only need to tow it for 2-3km in rough patches where the roads don't extend. So, it will take 1-2 hour per gun to be towed. Then the same bulls can town another gun into position in another 1-2 hour. But tracked guns can't be taken to such places
• Towed guns can be mounted on trucks and pulled along. Tracked guns need its own engine system to travel. A single truck can go on repeated to and fro motion to take multiple towed artillery. But making a separate truck or vehicle for each gun is very expensive
• Towed guns break down less as there are less moving parts. In tracked guns, there are additional moving parts which can break down more often.
• In tracked guns, problems with the vehicle can affect entire gun whereas in towed artillery, if truck gets broken dow, the artillery will be tied to another truck and towed.

Making barrels is not easy. The barrels have to withstand extreme pressure and also not bend on its own weight. Imagine the pressure it withstands to launch 20kg projectile to over 40km! Making such high end metallurgy is not easy. So, it takes lot of R&D to make the barrels of 152mm guns. Smaller guns are relatively easier to make.


DRDO developed the barrel for Dhanush and it is quite good.. But making titanium barrel is not easy. t is not pure titanium but an alloy. So, finding out the exact composition of the alloy is difficult. Also, the process of making it very resilient is hard. These things have to be done by DRDO. Private companies are incapable of R&D as they run on short term profit motive.

It is not the generals but Congress run by foreign agents who are to be blamed.


We have titanium in India itself. Recently titanium sponge production has started in Kerala.

Dude! As usual you need to say something basic and feel good about yourself? You could say all the inane stuff without responding to my post!

Also, I specifically compared towed guns to truck-mounted/wheeled guns. Why on earth are you telling me about the cons of a 'tracked' gun. You just felt like showing off you know a thing or two about tracked guns?

Again, you don't have to school me about making a gun (btw...it's called forging !). I've written extensively about titanium more than a year ago....I don't need any lessons!

I don't have a problem with your vanity posts if that makes you feel good about yourself....just don't tag it with my posts!

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Also, I specifically compared towed guns to truck-mounted/wheeled guns. Why on earth are you telling me about the cons of a 'tracked' gun. You just felt like showing off you know a thing or two about tracked guns?

There is no feel good here. I am giving some details of why towed guns are better. I have not made them up but have found this out by researching on the internet as written by soldiers of various countries.

You have been regularly discounting the usage of horses, donkeys and bulls whereas these are used very regularly. The animals are best suited to traverse in rough patches where roads don't exist. Also, you are discounting the fact that making one truck per gun will significantly add to the time and cost of building and maintaining. Considering these 2 things can help you in getting more clarity.

Main disadvantage of truck mounted guns:
1) One truck per gun is needed whereas towed guns can be towed in scores by making multiple trips. For example, to make 2000 guns, one also has to make 2000 trucks to mount it. Whereas to make 2000 towed guns, only 50-100 truck may be enough which can tow them by taking multiple trips
2) More moving parts due to addition of the truck on which the gun is mounted means more chance of gun breaking down and hence higher maintenance.
3) Difficulty in moving guns in difficult terrain whereas towed guns can be towed using donkeys and bulls


First think of these factors and then come back instead of shouting at me. Writing is not as easy or quick as talking and hence there will be some inefficiency here and there. One must be reasonable enough to understand these limitations.

 

[Bhadra]

There is no feel good here. I am giving some details of why towed guns are better. I have not made them up but have found this out by researching on the internet as written by soldiers of various countries.

You have been regularly discounting the usage of horses, donkeys and bulls whereas these are used very regularly. The animals are best suited to traverse in rough patches where roads don't exist. Also, you are discounting the fact that making one truck per gun will significantly add to the time and cost of building and maintaining. Considering these 2 things can help you in getting more clarity.

Main disadvantage of truck mounted guns:
1) One truck per gun is needed whereas towed guns can be towed in scores by making multiple trips. For example, to make 2000 guns, one also has to make 2000 trucks to mount it. Whereas to make 2000 towed guns, only 50-100 truck may be enough which can tow them by taking multiple trips
2) More moving parts due to addition of the truck on which the gun is mounted means more chance of gun breaking down and hence higher maintenance.
3) Difficulty in moving guns in difficult terrain whereas towed guns can be towed using donkeys and bulls


First think of these factors and then come back instead of shouting at me. Writing is not as easy or quick as talking and hence there will be some inefficiency here and there. One must be reasonable enough to understand these limitations.

The requirement of trucks and other vehicle in both cases is almost the same as towed gun will have its own FAT for towing and ammunition carriage. However, the advantage with towed system is that any truck can do the job. For a mounted gun, the vehicle has to be customised specialised vehicle to cater for requirement of firing while mounted. Hence, mounted gun system is bound to be constrained and costly.

Another advantage is that the FAT can become part of ammunition replacement chains once the gun is deployed. Truck after that can be sent away for short duration even to fetch water for gunners..

The mounted gun system requires larger areas for deployment as the entire truck needs to stabilized for accuracy. More recoil safety zone is required as the gun is on elevated platform. For towed guns only the mounts needs to be grounded firmly which takes lesser area.

I do not mind mounted system for plains but for mountainous terrain, it would be big "No".

India can make Titanium barrels as we have very good Forging Industry. If technology is required, it could be imported unless the same technology is usable for nuclear industry. India may need mor lighter guns for ares North of Leh and Partapur sector (for skardu etc).

The western countries have largely adopted truck mounted gun system due to their easy rolling flat plains of NATO theatre specially in Germany, Poland and Russia as also in their homelands.

Indian Army will do as per their requirements. Terrain is every thing and not republic day parades.

The problem with tracked vehicle is that it spoils the ground on which it travels, specially the roads. One Regiment of tracked artillery travelling on a road is end of existence of that road. It required to be taken on trailers like a tank.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The requirement of trucks and other vehicle in both cases is almost the same as towed gun will have its own FAT for towing and ammunition carriage. However, the advantage with towed system is that any truck can do the job. For a mounted gun, the vehicle has to be customised specialised vehicle to cater for requirement of firing while mounted. Hence, mounted gun system is bound to be constrained and costly.

The Artillery tractor for towed artillery is only for towing a gun over long distance. But once the gun is deployed, it is not needed to tow anymore. The ammunition truck has to be there even for mounted artillery for ammunition supply as the ammunition needs to be continually replenished and hence trucks must keep coming and going. So, an extra truck specifically devoted to mounted gun is inevitable even during operational deployment.

For example, when artillery is deployed here:

It does not need an artillery tractor for towing during deployment. The operational movement will be done by internal APU itself as the need to move is only for few hundred metres at a time during normal operational deployment. Only ammunition truck is needed to supply ammunition which is common requirement for all artillery. Whereas for mounted guns, the truck also must be there as it is part of the gun system. This is the extra cost.

India can make Titanium barrels as we have very good Forging Industry. If technology is required, it could be imported

We have not yet been into the titanium barrel forging. So, it will take time for R&D. Foreign countries, especially western ones, don't give any TOT (even non-nuclear) unless India already is in final stages of R&D. So, import of technology is not an easy option.

 

[Bhadra]

Artllary deployment in mountian.

Imagined that white / yellow line to the road and how the guns would be deployed along that road without blocking it for traffic.

 

[Bhadra]

........................................................

 

[Bhadra]

Deploy your Artillery here

And here

Here also

 

[Bhadra]

Some understanding of the system

 

[Hari Sud]

Deploy your Artillery here

And here

Here also

My hometown is in these mountains in Himachal Pradesh. I know how difficult is the climb.

 

[Enquirer]

There is no feel good here. I am giving some details of why towed guns are better. I have not made them up but have found this out by researching on the internet as written by soldiers of various countries.

You have been regularly discounting the usage of horses, donkeys and bulls whereas these are used very regularly. The animals are best suited to traverse in rough patches where roads don't exist. Also, you are discounting the fact that making one truck per gun will significantly add to the time and cost of building and maintaining. Considering these 2 things can help you in getting more clarity.

Main disadvantage of truck mounted guns:
1) One truck per gun is needed whereas towed guns can be towed in scores by making multiple trips. For example, to make 2000 guns, one also has to make 2000 trucks to mount it. Whereas to make 2000 towed guns, only 50-100 truck may be enough which can tow them by taking multiple trips
2) More moving parts due to addition of the truck on which the gun is mounted means more chance of gun breaking down and hence higher maintenance.
3) Difficulty in moving guns in difficult terrain whereas towed guns can be towed using donkeys and bulls


First think of these factors and then come back instead of shouting at me. Writing is not as easy or quick as talking and hence there will be some inefficiency here and there. One must be reasonable enough to understand these limitations.

Cost of a howitzer: ~$5-$7 million
Cost of a truck : ~$150K
So, what would a smart person optimize on? Buy 2000 howitzer, but skimp by buying only 50 trucks??

Enough of this BS about towed gun being towed by donkeys & bulls!! ATAGS is not a (short range) tiny mortar firing device or a tiny gun......it weighs 18 tonnes!! No idiot would think of employing donkey & bulls to tow an 18 tonne load. ENOUGH OF THIS BULLSHIT!!!

 

[Bleh]

There are several problems with tracked guns.

• They need good terrain to be moved whereas towed guns can be towed by donkeys and bulls in difficult terrains
• Towing by bulls is not hard as the bulls only need to tow it for 2-3km in rough patches where the roads don't extend. So, it will take 1-2 hour per gun to be towed. Then the same bulls can town another gun into position in another 1-2 hour. But tracked guns can't be taken to such places
• Towed guns can be mounted on trucks and pulled along. Tracked guns need its own engine system to travel. A single truck can go on repeated to and fro motion to take multiple towed artillery. But making a separate truck or vehicle for each gun is very expensive
• Towed guns break down less as there are less moving parts. In tracked guns, there are additional moving parts which can break down more often.
• In tracked guns, problems with the vehicle can affect entire gun whereas in towed artillery, if truck gets broken dow, the artillery will be tied to another truck and towed.

Deploy your Artillery here

And here

Here also

My hometown is in these mountains in Himachal Pradesh. I know how difficult is the climb.

Cost of a howitzer: ~$5-$7 million

Cost of a truck : ~$150K
So, what would a smart person optimize on? Buy 2000 howitzer, but skimp by buying only 50 trucks??

Enough of this BS about towed gun being towed by donkeys & bulls!! ATAGS is not a (short range) tiny mortar firing device or a tiny gun......it weighs 18 tonnes!! No idiot would think of employing donkey & bulls to tow an 18 tonne load. ENOUGH OF THIS BULLSHIT!!!

TATA’s 155mm/52-cal Motorised Howitzer???

Don't these move like normal trucks & just stop, unlimber, lower supports & fire.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Cost of a howitzer: ~$5-$7 million
Cost of a truck : ~$150K
So, what would a smart person optimize on? Buy 2000 howitzer, but skimp by buying only 50 trucks??

Enough of this BS about towed gun being towed by donkeys & bulls!! ATAGS is not a (short range) tiny mortar firing device or a tiny gun......it weighs 18 tonnes!! No idiot would think of employing donkey & bulls to tow an 18 tonne load. ENOUGH OF THIS BULLSHIT!!!

ATAGS is overweight. Guns like Dhanush can be towed by animals as it weighs 10-11 tons, similar to a bus in empty weight. Animals are particularly useful in forest like terrain or mountainous terrain where tractors don't go.

Cost of artillery is $2 million while that of a heavy truck is $0.2 million. This is not because of ease of making trucks but because of scaling. Trucks are made in 2-3 lakh every year whereas artillery is made in 100-200 every year. Such low quantity creates unnecessarily low productivity per manhour labour. Hence many people in artillery factory are not as they should. Also, the maintenance cost of machines and tools are similar due to most of them relying on time rather than workload. It is this inefficiency that makes artillery look 10 times expensive than a truck. When artillery have to be produced en masse in war, then the real pinch of truck mounted artillery in terms of cost will come

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

TATA’s 155mm/52-cal Motorised Howitzer???
View attachment 34099
Don't these move like normal trucks & just stop, unlimber, lower supports & fire.

Normal trucks are only good for roads Where there is no road, trucks will have hard time to move. There we need tracked vehicle, tractors or animals.

 

[Enquirer]

ATAGS is overweight. Guns like Dhanush can be towed by animals as it weighs 10-11 tons, similar to a bus in empty weight. Animals are particularly useful in forest like terrain or mountainous terrain where tractors don't go.

Cost of artillery is $2 million while that of a heavy truck is $0.2 million. This is not because of ease of making trucks but because of scaling. Trucks are made in 2-3 lakh every year whereas artillery is made in 100-200 every year. Such low quantity creates unnecessarily low productivity per manhour labour. Hence many people in artillery factory are not as they should. Also, the maintenance cost of machines and tools are similar due to most of them relying on time rather than workload. It is this inefficiency that makes artillery look 10 times expensive than a truck. When artillery have to be produced en masse in war, then the real pinch of truck mounted artillery in terms of cost will come

The amount of BS you're able to spew makes me worry about you...perhaps you need to get yourself checked. Just a friendly advise.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The amount of BS you're able to spew makes me worry about you...perhaps you need to get yourself checked. Just a friendly advise.

When you can't argue logically, call others names! Good idea!

 

[Enquirer]

When you can't argue logically, call others names! Good idea!

facts and logic doesn't move you........................

 

[Kay]

Horse towed artillery was last used in WW2. Pack artillery (artillery broken into small pieces) carried by mules were last used in First Indochina War. All of these had much smaller caliber than today's artillery.

 

[Bhadra]

Horse towed artillery was last used in WW2. Pack artillery (artillery broken into small pieces) carried by mules were last used in First Indochina War. All of these had much smaller caliber than today's artillery.

Can you check and let the forum know how many Pack Mule regiments Indian Army still has.

There still places in India where 120mm Mortars and its ammunition is taken mule back. I still remember a 75/24 How being lugged by Pack animals:

 

[Bhadra]

What is the point of Discussion ?
And what is being contented ?
Even after 20 posts I am yet to make out ??

I only know that 155mm Howitzers is not end all so far Indian artillery is concerned. 155 has just started trickling and Indian artillery will continue to hold 105, 130, 122, 120, 160 mm tube artillery besides the finest 81mm and 51 mm. We have a very sizable Para force who will continue to use their systems.

"Aur Bhi Gam hain Jamane Men 155 Muhabat ke Siwai"