Indian Army Artillery

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Towed gun is the least flexible.
Actually towed guns are most flexible as they can be towed anywhere. They also can move on their own APU to change locations after firing. Towed guns have much lesser weight than tracked guns and they can be attacked to anything and towed along. Even donkeys and bulls are used at difficult terrains to tow the guns. But tracked artiller are very heavy and weigh 30+ tons which make it difficult to be moved.

Kalyani has been working on a 'special alloy' (aluminum based) guns that are supposed to be light.
Kalyani could not even make the barrel of ATAGS. As of now ATAGS barrel is either made by OFB or is imported. Don't keep high expectations from private companies. All R&D must be done by government organisations or PSU only. Private companies are only good as bodyshops
 
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Enquirer

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Actually towed guns are most flexible as they can be towed anywhere. They also can move on their own APU to change locations after firing. Towed guns have much lesser weight than tracked guns and they can be attacked to anything and towed along. Even donkeys and bulls are used at difficult terrains to tow the guns. But tracked artiller are very heavy and weigh 30+ tons which make it difficult to be moved.
There're something called Truck mounted guns & Wheeled guns....which combine the towing and the gun into one system!

Can you do math on how many bulls will be required to tow an ATAGS? I am not able to compute the horse power of a bull!!


Kalyani could not even make the barrel of ATAGS. As of now ATAGS barrel is either made by OFB or is imported. Don't keep high expectations from private companies. All R&D must be done by government organisations or PSU only. Private companies are only good as bodyshops
It's not a question of can Kalyani make or not...it's just a question of having the required forging machines! OFB has them because they've been forging gun barrels for decades!
Kalyani did import such tools....yet the ATAGS workshare for Kalyani did not involve barrel forging!
Of course, Kalyani can do it....how else will Bharat 52 or ATHOS be 'made in India' if ever the order is placed?
 
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Bhadra

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Kalyani has been working on a 'special alloy' (aluminum based) guns that are supposed to be light.

IMHO if Kalyani can crack the soft-recoil (or Hybrid recoil as they call it) technology then super light guns should be possible...

Remember that despite the current order for M777s, there's still a need for 290 more such guns as per the army's plan.
Sir, Why does it have to fall on Kalyani. What did DODOs and OFB do?

India Rare Earth Limited was established in 1950 (like OFB) under DAE. Mishra Dhatu Nigam has also been working under MoD for donkeys years. Now, Indian companies are extracting and exporting abundant raw material to make Titanium from Kerala and Orissa. I think India has started making adequate quantities of Titanium.

India makes one of the finest aluminum in the world including aircraft / automobile grade.

It should not be difficult to cast out a Titanium barrel / very light alloy barrel and carriage. Bharat Forge of Kalyani has established one of the world class casting / metal factory in Pune on land stolen from Army. They can do it. DRDO is busy making ABM and OFB their bunglows. Army is no ones baby.

But this forum people will blame poor generals for all ills India faces.
 

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Sir, Why does it have to fall on Kalyani. What did DODOs and OFB do?

India Rare Earth Limited was established in 1950 (like OFB) under DAE. Mishra Dhatu Nigam has also been working under MoD for donkeys years. Now, Indian companies are extracting and exporting abundant raw material to make Titanium from Kerala and Orissa. I think India has started making adequate quantities of Titanium.

India makes one of the finest aluminum in the world including aircraft / automobile grade.

It should not be difficult to cast out a Titanium barrel / very light alloy barrel and carriage. Bharat Forge of Kalyani has established one of the world class casting / metal factory in Pune on land stolen from Army. They can do it. DRDO is busy making ABM and OFB their bunglows. Army is no ones baby.

But this forum people will blame poor generals for all ills India faces.
I am not saying Kalyani 'should' do something...I am saying that Kalyani is 'already doing' this stuff. It's a good thing if private sector is willing to invest in R&D and come up with superior products - there's nothing to scoff about.

Also, I was saying instead of just relying on lighter materials (read: expensive) the 'soft recoil' technology offers better/lighter/cheaper overall gun.
 

Bhadra

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I should have known earlier itself that I am dealing with someone with an itchy finger on the trigger, and likely to pull it inside his pants! But then as it is wont to by nature, I give adequate benefit-of-doubt to let them crawl out of the pit of embarrassment!

Firstly, I never said all guns should be 'towed guns'. You need to improve your level of reading comprehension. I lamented at the age-old requirements.....but at the same time I know that changing that requirement would mean wiping out Dhanush/ATAGS from the block. So, in terms of supporting indigenous production I would conceptually come to peace with a towed gun produced locally - if that's the type of gun the Army desires!
To begin with, have some modicum of decency. No need to exhibit your acquired skills of gutter school English which is also dismal to say the least.

Towed gun is the least flexible...if you don't understand anything else just read the very name!
Depends on the area. It may be least flexible inside OFB factory but is most flexible in border areas of Gujarat, Rajasthan, Punjab, J&K, Bengal, Assam etc even in large parts of Ladakh where there is extensive network of roads. Only a class 9 road is required/ class 5 may also do. All villages in those areas specially border areas have black top or gravel roads where guns can be towed. I safely assume you were no where near those.

A towed gun vehicle can be detached and used purposefully. In case it gets stuck on ground, gun and towing vehicle can be separated for extraction.

It is cheap in price, operation and maintenance.

Cost and ease of training.

Ease of transportation by helicopters, aircrafts, ships and smaller container cargo carriers.

Just extending boiler plate arguments like terrain, weather blah blah doesn't make your argument stronger - it just makes you appear hollow! I can tell that you haven't even read army's plan in the first place. You're just BSing because there's no cost to BSing on the forum.....shame obviously doesn't deter you!
boiler plate factors like terrain, climate etc is everything the operations are conducted on. Without that there is nothing. It is not areas inside the back of your pants where guns are deployed, recoil and roar.

By army's own doctrine towed guns (52x155mm kind) are meant for plains & desert only....while tracked, wheeled, truck mounted are meant for tricky mountainous & weather conditions! So, when those in 'the know' think limited capability of towed guns is only fine because of its restriction to 'gentler' conditions then why does a pile of horse manure (yourself) feel it's the opposite?
Now this is too much.
Tracked guns for mountains. Discussions or arguments are futile.

Many of our mountainous areas specially on LC opposite Kashmir valley, Poonch, Naushera and Mendhar will laughingly take towed guns. Many parts of Ladakh will also be suitable. With added infrastructure development all areas will support towed guns.

Those light howitzers have different role and purpose.

I don't doubt that 30 years ago, the army folks did a thorough job at looking at all available options and the costs involved. It would have been ok if they had implemented it within that decade. However, the elapse of 3 decades changes the scenario.....and due to bureaucratic and other issues, they're still sticking to an old doctrine! ATAGS was designed to fit that old doctrine!
What is ATGS - basically its towed artillery only. Why are you calling it different. Because something is stuck somewhere ?

If an army is defending its border or invading another, the modern weapons locating radars will give away your precise location. As such modern artillery dictates that you lob several rounds, and then move to a new location quickly to lob few more! If you're dug into the same position then you're inviting some precision retaliation! Indian army fires its towed guns from specific 'firing pits' that are supposed to protect the crew against retaliatory fire........but the flip side is that such pits will become known ahead of time by simple surveillance!
That is ideal but not possible everywhere. It is difficult and time consuming to do that in higher mountains - possibly if you could have even dreamt about it. CB is difficult in many areas.

You probably won't understand any of the details/arguments presented, but I can bet you'll come back with some nonsensical response. Surprise me!
Now, I am prepared to take you as a gunner boy and give you a ram rod at proper place.

Suggest do not indulge in this kind of behaviour.
 

Enquirer

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To begin with, have some modicum of decency. No need to exhibit your acquired skills of gutter school English which is also dismal to say the least.



Depends on the area. It may be least flexible inside OFB factory but is most flexible in border areas of Gujarat, Rajasthan, Punjab, J&K, Bengal, Assam etc even in large parts of Ladakh where there is extensive network of roads. Only a class 9 road is required/ class 5 may also do. All villages in those areas specially border areas have black top or gravel roads where guns can be towed. I safely assume you were no where near those.

A towed gun vehicle can be detached and used purposefully. In case it gets stuck on ground, gun and towing vehicle can be separated for extraction.

It is cheap in price, operation and maintenance.

Cost and ease of training.

Ease of transportation by helicopters, aircrafts, ships and smaller container cargo carriers.



boiler plate factors like terrain, climate etc is everything the operations are conducted on. Without that there is nothing. It is not areas inside the back of your pants where guns are deployed, recoil and roar.



Now this is too much.
Tracked guns for mountains. Discussions or arguments are futile.

Many of our mountainous areas specially on LC opposite Kashmir valley, Poonch, Naushera and Mendhar will laughingly take towed guns. Many parts of Ladakh will also be suitable. With added infrastructure development all areas will support towed guns.

Those light howitzers have different role and purpose.



What is ATGS - basically its towed artillery only. Why are you calling it different. Because something is stuck somewhere ?



That is ideal but not possible everywhere. It is difficult and time consuming to do that in higher mountains - possibly if you could have even dreamt about it. CB is difficult in many areas.



Now, I am prepared to take you as a gunner boy and give you a ram rod at proper place.

Suggest do not indulge in this kind of behaviour.
Hey numbnut! You should have considered the norms of decency before you hurled insults at me to hide your intellectual inadequacy!

Your arguments are stupid to start with and annoying all the way!

ATAGS for mountains? air lifted by helos? As I deduced earlier you didn't even bother to read army's own plan, but are concocting your own as BS keeps spewing!!

Not going to indulge in argument with a nutjob! As they say: Never argue with an idiot, because people watching won't be able to tell the difference!
 

aarav

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On a positive note till 2021 Indian army would get confirmed 359 155mm guns of different variety with option of follow on orders amounting to 400+ and 150 order of ATAGS waiting army green light and some momentum of MGS deal is increasing,it is good days for artillery at least in Modi Govt.
 

Bhadra

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Hey numbnut! You should have considered the norms of decency before you hurled insults at me to hide your intellectual inadequacy!

Your arguments are stupid to start with and annoying all the way!

ATAGS for mountains? air lifted by helos? As I deduced earlier you didn't even bother to read army's own plan, but are concocting your own as BS keeps spewing!!

Not going to indulge in argument with a nutjob! As they say: Never argue with an idiot, because people watching won't be able to tell the difference!
you will soon find you caught a hot booming gun. This is not your ATGS advertisement platform. Secondly, I am quite capable of tearing all your BS apart. I am sure you have not even smelled that doctrine.

yes, a towed gun in parts can be taken by a helicopter if need be. Are you sure there would never be a helicopter which can lift up a towed gun? You have never been to Jaffna or Vavuniya and got screwed there by a hellilifted gun ... so let it be.

Good arguments are always welcome, though.
 
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Enquirer

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you will soon find you caught a hot booming gun. This is not your ATGS advertisement platform. Secondly, I am quite capable of tearing all your BS apart. I am sure you have not even smelled that doctrine.

yes, a towed gun in parts can be taken by a helicopter if need be. Are you sure there would never be a helicopter which can lift up a towed gun? You have never been to Jaffna or Vavuniya and got screwed there by a hellilifted gun ... so let it be.

Good arguments are always welcome, though.
You must be the consummate idiot that ever lived on this planet! Congratulations on that distinction!

Me, advertising ATAGS? Your numskulls is too weak to follow any of the cogent points I was making!

You're like an annoying rat that scurries from point to point, but cannot hold ground! lifting a tiny 105mm gun (that's also towed) is different from a 155mmx52 gun! Only a consummate fool like yourself will think that such a gun can be assembled together in the field! Have you no sense of weight or size?

Why do such morons exist on this forum? There should be some IQ test before admitting members!

And don't go crying again! You started with insults, I'll continue till to cease your BS!
 

Bhadra

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You must be the consummate idiot that ever lived on this planet! Congratulations on that distinction!

Me, advertising ATAGS? Your numskulls is too weak to follow any of the cogent points I was making!

You're like an annoying rat that scurries from point to point, but cannot hold ground! lifting a tiny 105mm gun (that's also towed) is different from a 155mmx52 gun! Only a consummate fool like yourself will think that such a gun can be assembled together in the field! Have you no sense of weight or size?

Why do such morons exist on this forum? There should be some IQ test before admitting members!

And don't go crying again! You started with insults, I'll continue till to cease your BS!
I did not start with any insult. Any one in the forum can go back a few posts and see for himself.
It is you who has learnt your language in some whore joint.
I am last one to take filth from such a maggot ...

Fine, if you can not take 155 how by a helicopter, I can take it. So.... go get rogered !

That does not entitle you to derail the thread and make it a document of your lowly expletives dispensed so freely as if it is your pop's domain.
 

Sanglamorre

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Pardon my ignorance, but I had a couple of questions after reading the thread.

1. Technically, India has 3 major borders- Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal-Bhutan-China. Amongst them, the only harsh mountain terrain is Northern Kashmir, some parts of Nepal-Bhutan border. Since I'm from East India, I've been to Sikkim, a few Indo-China border areas like Nathu-La pass, Asom, Meghalaya areas. The terrain can not be used by self-propelled artillery. The roads are too narrow, too sharp, and often, too fragile. I have many an experience of being stuck in Sikkim roads between IA posts waiting for our hero BRO to rescue us after a flash rain collapsed the side of a mountain. Those roads at max can take one of those smaller trucks and are unreliable at best. Nepal-Bhutan border is mostly plains on the Indian side. You can take an 80cc moped and run up Bhutan or Nepal border crossing. Same story on Asom, Arunachal side. I am not sure the roads can take self-towed arty vehicles. The accessible roads are pretty easy to traverse. Pakistan has large tracts of desert and plain, Bangladesh is mostly plains and low hills. Does IA need tracked or otherwise self-propelled arty?

2. I was under the impression that IAF and IA were improving their heavy lift capability specifically for towing arty. Stuff like the Chinook can get arty in a Sikkim terrain much faster than self-propelled running up narrow, dangerous roads.

So, is self-propelled that much of a necessity? I could be totally wrong, just asking.
 

AUSTERLITZ

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Pardon my ignorance, but I had a couple of questions after reading the thread.

1. Technically, India has 3 major borders- Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal-Bhutan-China. Amongst them, the only harsh mountain terrain is Northern Kashmir, some parts of Nepal-Bhutan border. Since I'm from East India, I've been to Sikkim, a few Indo-China border areas like Nathu-La pass, Asom, Meghalaya areas. The terrain can not be used by self-propelled artillery. The roads are too narrow, too sharp, and often, too fragile. I have many an experience of being stuck in Sikkim roads between IA posts waiting for our hero BRO to rescue us after a flash rain collapsed the side of a mountain. Those roads at max can take one of those smaller trucks and are unreliable at best. Nepal-Bhutan border is mostly plains on the Indian side. You can take an 80cc moped and run up Bhutan or Nepal border crossing. Same story on Asom, Arunachal side. I am not sure the roads can take self-towed arty vehicles. The accessible roads are pretty easy to traverse. Pakistan has large tracts of desert and plain, Bangladesh is mostly plains and low hills. Does IA need tracked or otherwise self-propelled arty?

2. I was under the impression that IAF and IA were improving their heavy lift capability specifically for towing arty. Stuff like the Chinook can get arty in a Sikkim terrain much faster than self-propelled running up narrow, dangerous roads.

So, is self-propelled that much of a necessity? I could be totally wrong, just asking.
Tracked arty is for pak border only,and maybe ladakh.
For NE ultra light guns,pack howitzers,towed and truck mounted .
 

Enquirer

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I did not start with any insult. Any one in the forum can go back a few posts and see for himself.
It is you who has learnt your language in some whore joint.
I am last one to take filth from such a maggot ...

Fine, if you can not take 155 how by a helicopter, I can take it. So.... go get rogered !

That does not entitle you to derail the thread and make it a document of your lowly expletives dispensed so freely as if it is your pop's domain.
I am glad I am able to help clarify the concepts of weight, size and complexities to you.

As regards to how your posts are insulting, I don't have the patience to educate you on mannerisms. I do hope you'll go back several posts yourself and reflect upon your choice of words (instead of delegating that task to fellow members).
 

Bhadra

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I am glad I am able to help clarify the concepts of weight, size and complexities to you.

As regards to how your posts are insulting, I don't have the patience to educate you on mannerisms. I do hope you'll go back several posts yourself and reflect upon your choice of words (instead of delegating that task to fellow members).
That is better and a little sober..... I will take that.

I may be a little haywire but not insulting and an abuser.... so go to sleep a little relived.
 

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Pardon my ignorance, but I had a couple of questions after reading the thread.

1. Technically, India has 3 major borders- Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal-Bhutan-China. Amongst them, the only harsh mountain terrain is Northern Kashmir, some parts of Nepal-Bhutan border. Since I'm from East India, I've been to Sikkim, a few Indo-China border areas like Nathu-La pass, Asom, Meghalaya areas. The terrain can not be used by self-propelled artillery. The roads are too narrow, too sharp, and often, too fragile. I have many an experience of being stuck in Sikkim roads between IA posts waiting for our hero BRO to rescue us after a flash rain collapsed the side of a mountain. Those roads at max can take one of those smaller trucks and are unreliable at best. Nepal-Bhutan border is mostly plains on the Indian side. You can take an 80cc moped and run up Bhutan or Nepal border crossing. Same story on Asom, Arunachal side. I am not sure the roads can take self-towed arty vehicles. The accessible roads are pretty easy to traverse. Pakistan has large tracts of desert and plain, Bangladesh is mostly plains and low hills. Does IA need tracked or otherwise self-propelled arty?

2. I was under the impression that IAF and IA were improving their heavy lift capability specifically for towing arty. Stuff like the Chinook can get arty in a Sikkim terrain much faster than self-propelled running up narrow, dangerous roads.

So, is self-propelled that much of a necessity? I could be totally wrong, just asking.
To understand that, you need to inspect the ravines of the Kashmir mountains, where several Bofors (towed guns) presently find as their resting place. 'Truck mounted guns' (not heavy tracked like K9) will find it easier to traverse the circuitous mountain roads.

If you've never towed anything, you should watch this short video to understand the pitfalls.... (think how the towed gun's weight is distributed)

Also, the total weight of a truck mounted gun is not that much different from a 'towed gun' alone....as much of the weight in a 'towed gun' is to absorb the recoil itself.

 

Bhadra

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Tracked arty is for pak border only,and maybe ladakh.
For NE ultra light guns,pack howitzers,towed and truck mounted .
Sir, NE is very very huze area.

Our borders with Bangladesh is longer than border with Pakistan.
We have a long border with Myanmar.
Then there is Bhutan and Nepal.

Artillery required for all areas is not counted for.
Ultra light artillery is sector specific.

However, our infrastructure along the Sino-Indian LAC is improving to accommodate a towed 155 mm gun.

At present moment the choice between towed artillery and truck mounted artillery guns seems to be of price and economy. Functionally there is no difference.
 

garg_bharat

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Can the Gurus tell me why DODOs / OFB are not making Titanium lights guns in India ? and where does BEA get their Titenium from? California ??

No one hears any thing about it from them.

Busy in deciding strategy !!
Titanium metallurgy is very difficult. Plus metal is very expensive. Primary source is Russia.

I dont know what is the issue with weight as a road that can take a 40 ton truck can also take a 14 ton gun. What is the benefit if weight is reduced to 11 ton? More important is length of the vehicle as turning is difficult on mountain roads. Actually towed artillery moves good in mountain as truck and gun have low height and tow joint is flexible. Weight of gun is immaterial.
 

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Titanium metallurgy is very difficult. Plus metal is very expensive. Primary source is Russia.

I dont know what is the issue with weight as a road that can take a 40 ton truck can also take a 14 ton gun. What is the benefit if weight is reduced to 11 ton? More important is length of the vehicle as turning is difficult on mountain roads. Actually towed artillery moves good in mountain as truck and gun have low height and tow joint is flexible. Weight of gun is immaterial.
Titanium in mineral form is abundant in India (and everywhere else). It's just that the refining process is very complex and expensive.

India has finally been able to succeed in the refining process. So going forward there may be a good amount of titanium products.......even though I don't think anyone's working on a titanium gun as of now.
 

ezsasa

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Titanium in mineral form is abundant in India (and everywhere else). It's just that the refining process is very complex and expensive.

India has finally been able to succeed in the refining process. So going forward there may be a good amount of titanium products.......even though I don't think anyone's working on a titanium gun as of now.
Kalyani is, but I remember baba also saying titanium barrels are maintained intensive compared to regular barrels.
 

Bhadra

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Pardon my ignorance, but I had a couple of questions after reading the thread.

1. Technically, India has 3 major borders- Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal-Bhutan-China. Amongst them, the only harsh mountain terrain is Northern Kashmir, some parts of Nepal-Bhutan border. Since I'm from East India, I've been to Sikkim, a few Indo-China border areas like Nathu-La pass, Asom, Meghalaya areas. The terrain can not be used by self-propelled artillery. The roads are too narrow, too sharp, and often, too fragile. I have many an experience of being stuck in Sikkim roads between IA posts waiting for our hero BRO to rescue us after a flash rain collapsed the side of a mountain. Those roads at max can take one of those smaller trucks and are unreliable at best. Nepal-Bhutan border is mostly plains on the Indian side. You can take an 80cc moped and run up Bhutan or Nepal border crossing. Same story on Asom, Arunachal side. I am not sure the roads can take self-towed arty vehicles. The accessible roads are pretty easy to traverse. Pakistan has large tracts of desert and plain, Bangladesh is mostly plains and low hills. Does IA need tracked or otherwise self-propelled arty?

2. I was under the impression that IAF and IA were improving their heavy lift capability specifically for towing arty. Stuff like the Chinook can get arty in a Sikkim terrain much faster than self-propelled running up narrow, dangerous roads.

So, is self-propelled that much of a necessity? I could be totally wrong, just asking.
Indian terrain along our borders is broadly classified as :
* Nountenious - including high altitude areas.
* Plains including Riverine
* Deserts including semi deserts
* Jungles

One of the most difficult mountainous tracts, as rightly observed by you is Sikkim, specially East Sikkim where mountains rise abruptly, communications do not have valleys to follow and there is absolute lack of vegetation. adding to high altitude problems. Then we have Kameng area of Arunachal which is equally difficult. In other areas the communications follow valleys and rise in altitude is comparably gradual. Northern areas of Ladakh remain a big problem.

Our side of deserts have become plains / semi desert area right down to Barmer However areas across border in Pakistan remain difficult deserts of Cholistan.

Plain areas are obstacle ridden specially in Punjab , Jammu, Bengal and Assam.

Jungles predominate our borders with Myanmar and portions of Bangladesh.

All border areas have some amount, more or less roads which can take towed arty. In towed artillery the essential problem is turnings on the roads due to which towing guns become a little problematic. However the longer ranges of 155mm artillery gives it flexibility in deployment.Deployment of artillery in these areas is on the road, along the roads or by the side of roads. Deployment areas are a few and scarce and crest clearance may not be available everywhere.

Indian Army therefore essentially requires guns which are hard hitting and easy in carriage and can be taken across obstacles.
Tracked guns are essentially required by offensive formations of tanks.
Light howitzers are also meant for offensive operations.

Rest all (90 per cent) of the requirement can be met with towed or truck mounted guns. It would not be essentially a tactical choice but will be determined by factors like cost, economy, availability, indigenisation, technology and other factors like lobbying.

At the end, however, let me remind that the days of mules and mule packed artillery are still not over. Light guns and mortars will continue to be required in large numbers as tactical as also terrain requirements.
 

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