Indian Army Artillery

[garg_bharat]

Nobody talking about laser weapons? It seems China is already using lasers against satellites and aircraft. Americans have started deploying lasers as well. What is Indian army doing in this regard?

 

[WolfPack86]

#NewProcurement According to SP's Land Forces, Elbit (Indian Partner Bharat Forge) ATHOS 2052 wins the 155 mm/52 calibre towed artillery gun competition of #IndianArmy. The order of it may be just 400, whereas Indian ATAGS may get order of 1180. Official confirmation awaits

 

[WolfPack86]

According to SP's Land Forces, Elbit (Indian Partner Bharat Forge) ATHOS 2052 wins the 155 mm/52 calibre towed artillery gun competition of #IndianArmy. The order of it may be just 400, whereas Indian ATAGS may get order of 1180. Official confirmation awaits

 

[aarav]

Don't derail the thread,this is about discussing Indian artillery ,keep it that way

 

[garg_bharat]

Don't derail the thread,this is about discussing Indian artillery ,keep it that way

Laser is the new type of artillery in my view. Has same purpose.

 

[EXPERT]

Cost wise if we see:
ATAGS < Dhanush< ATHOS 2052

Though it is assumed that Army will reduce the number of procurement for ATHOS 2052, I think the numbers will more or less be beyond ~800.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Are there any follow up orders on the K9 Vajra? Or is the SP type limited to 100 guns?



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[Chinmoy]

Laser is the new type of artillery in my view. Has same purpose.

If you have talked of Rail Gun or Coil Gun mechanism, one could have understood. But DEW is totally different concept from artillery and we have a dedicated thread for that. Kindly post there.

 

[Immanuel]

Not a big deal, it's fine, let's keep in mind, if we have to wait for all 1400 guns to be ATAGS, we won't have the whole order delivered for at least 10-15 years. Ones needs to have heavy capacity to have such large number of guns in 10 years. We can expect Israel to deliver all 400 in 5-6 years or so while in the same span have 1000 ATAGS.

 

[Hari Sud]

Athos - Elbiet,

Are there any follow up orders on the K9 Vajra? Or is the SP type limited to 100 guns?



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My question too. Are we considering to expand K9 Vajra acquisition also or just expand the towed artillery acquisition only.

 

[Enquirer]

Are there any follow up orders on the K9 Vajra? Or is the SP type limited to 100 guns?



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Athos - Elbiet,



My question too. Are we considering to expand K9 Vajra acquisition also or just expand the towed artillery acquisition only.

Unlikely in the near-medium term.
'Tracked Howitzer' category had only 100 as requirement per Artillery Field Rationalization plan - and the current order fully meets the requirement.

 

[Frontrunner]

Their is an option of ordering 50 more guns if army requires and there after it will be an indeginous version from the likes of drdo or ofb.

Unlikely in the near-medium term.
'Tracked Howitzer' category had only 100 as requirement per Artillery Field Rationalization plan - and the current order fully meets the requirement.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Last night this news came and destroyed my sleep.
Since then I came to a conclusion.
LET'S ASSUME THIS NEWS BY SP PUBLICATIONS IS 100% true.
I want all DFI members to look at my small points that I am giving below and decide if I am true or not.

• DHANUSH CAME-army originally wanted 52 mm gun but decided for time being it is OKAY and went with 45 mm gun.

That may be one reason for 114 gun order (fuck the small order mindset).

• Then CAME ATAGS all high hopes were pinned on it, it performed good, had more weight because army desired "fully electric drive and more autonomous system" hence weight increased and weight became 18 tons. Now, weight decrease and another things are going on.

Unless, untill weight does not go below 15 tons army will not place order because it's "bridge not capable".
And initial order was made of 150 guns.

• Now here come Athos I say NAME IT OH MY GOD gun from Israelis.

It hit all good spot can fire above 40 kms weight is 13 tons. In india every bridge now will be tailored made for this "beautiful jointly developed gun" and hence this gun is chosen now.
So,members I want to make a nostradamus prediction which has 90 percent chance IMPORT LOBBY WILL SURELY make it come true.
ATAGS-less than 400 because it is "heavy"
New category created by our import lobby.
DHANUSH-Don't want 45 mm and 52 mm will take time. SO less than 200.
OH MY GOD sorry "Athos" MADE IN Israel - More than 1000 because it is "perfect".
So, my members be prepared our good import lobby WILL CREATE category even in towed howitzer.

• HEAVY-ATAGS even if it become 16 ton.
• TIME Pass or URGENT-dhanush at 13 tons but with 45 mm.
• PERFECT-ATHOS 2052.

HENCE,Athos will be ordered and another import of more than 1 billion dollars.
Why? because "hamaaare paas bahut pause hai".
Army ko best to the point weapon chahiye bhale hi swarg waasi Manohar parikar ji ne kaha tha ek baar "armed forces some orders are like star wars weapons".EVEN THEN OUR ARMY NEVER CAME TO REALIZE "how it take time to make a perfect weapon".
Oi bhai @Frontrunner what you will say about this, it is true na :bounce:my above points.
Even world famous ak-47 went through some gruesome trials and years of development before becoming legend in Vietnam War BUT BUT WE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR ATAGS then when will we have, when we are in WAR.

Bharat Forge is partnered with Elbit for ATHOS. Bharat Forge is also ATAGS program partner.

ATAGS desh me aana tay hai! It is any day more advanced than ATHOS. If Congi MC did not screw arty modernisation in this country for last 30 years, we wouldn't have this problem.

Effectively this is a man made problem. Solution will also be man made!

:biggrin2:

 

[Bhadra]

The solution is to test extensively...........not make soldiers carry multiple guns
Surely, once design/manufacturing defects were found the guns should have been replaced!

You're living in 'history' to think that 'towed artillery' is the dominant artillery for 'modern' warfare! The fact is most artillery gun manufacturers have completely STOPPED making towed guns....the few that still keep a towed gun in their portfolio are once who aspire to someday win the LARGE contract from Indian army!

30 YEARS ago Indian army came up with its field rationalization plan....that reflected more of what's prevalent/available at that time. 30 yrs later, the same plan is just getting implemented........alas, with not much change to a historical plan.

As I said before, unique REQUIREMENTS of certain battlefields should lead to selection of unique CAPABILITIES in systems. Having varieties just for the sake of variety is a recipe for defeat!

The largest airforce in the world operated thousands of F16s as the only dominant fighter....there were other fighter jets but for unique set of roles.

You are inventing arguments. Some times you say towed guns are least flexible and then you go argue that all system should be Dhanush / ATGS which is towed guns. First clear your cobwebs.

Then you straight away jump to the world. but do not consider what world armies are meant to do.

No Army in the world except third world armies and Russia / Germany is geared up primarily to defend their land borders. Most of the Western armies and US are expeditionary forces where mobility of equipment, air transportability, lightness etc become significant requirement.

In our context, our borders and the existing terrain, weather, climate and road conditions will decide what kind of equipment is required and in what quantity. Second determining factor would be Indian Army's doctrine for war fighting, need for switching of forces, strategic transportation, condition and capacity of rail, air and sea transportation.

Tell me why towed artillery is bad for India,as implied by you ?

Let it be decided by those who are in business of doing that. Your job should be to give what is asked for rather than to decide what Army requires. You concentrate on your screw drivers rather than blindly barging into "strategic affairs" as you do not understand it.

 

[Bhadra]

Can the Gurus tell me why DODOs / OFB are not making Titanium lights guns in India ? and where does BEA get their Titenium from? California ??

No one hears any thing about it from them.

Busy in deciding strategy !!

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Can the Gurus tell me why DODOs / OFB are not making Titanium lights guns in India ? and where does BEA get their Titenium from? California ??

No one hears any thing about it from them.

Busy in deciding strategy !!

Kalyani is making titanium guns for ULH category and MGS.Don't expect anything from OFB metallurgy.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Can the Gurus tell me why DODOs / OFB are not making Titanium lights guns in India ? and where does BEA get their Titenium from? California ??

No one hears any thing about it from them.

Busy in deciding strategy !!

Titanium for USA is supplied by Russia as USA has limited Titanium reserve.

About DRDO/OFB not making M777 type guns, first questions like "quantity requirement" and "cost" comes into picture. It may appear simple to make few dozen guns a year but will it be cost effective when we need in large numbers (thousands per year) during war?

 

[Enquirer]

You are inventing arguments. Some times you say towed guns are least flexible and then you go argue that all system should be Dhanush / ATGS which is towed guns. First clear your cobwebs.

Then you straight away jump to the world. but do not consider what world armies are meant to do.

No Army in the world except third world armies and Russia / Germany is geared up primarily to defend their land borders. Most of the Western armies and US are expeditionary forces where mobility of equipment, air transportability, lightness etc become significant requirement.

In our context, our borders and the existing terrain, weather, climate and road conditions will decide what kind of equipment is required and in what quantity. Second determining factor would be Indian Army's doctrine for war fighting, need for switching of forces, strategic transportation, condition and capacity of rail, air and sea transportation.

Tell me why towed artillery is bad for India,as implied by you ?

Let it be decided by those who are in business of doing that. Your job should be to give what is asked for rather than to decide what Army requires. You concentrate on your screw drivers rather than blindly barging into "strategic affairs" as you do not understand it.

I should have known earlier itself that I am dealing with someone with an itchy finger on the trigger, and likely to pull it inside his pants! But then as it is wont to by nature, I give adequate benefit-of-doubt to let them crawl out of the pit of embarrassment!

Firstly, I never said all guns should be 'towed guns'. You need to improve your level of reading comprehension. I lamented at the age-old requirements.....but at the same time I know that changing that requirement would mean wiping out Dhanush/ATAGS from the block. So, in terms of supporting indigenous production I would conceptually come to peace with a towed gun produced locally - if that's the type of gun the Army desires!

Towed gun is the least flexible...if you don't understand anything else just read the very name!

Just extending boiler plate arguments like terrain, weather blah blah doesn't make your argument stronger - it just makes you appear hollow! I can tell that you haven't even read army's plan in the first place. You're just BSing because there's no cost to BSing on the forum.....shame obviously doesn't deter you!

By army's own doctrine towed guns (52x155mm kind) are meant for plains & desert only....while tracked, wheeled, truck mounted are meant for tricky mountainous & weather conditions! So, when those in 'the know' think limited capability of towed guns is only fine because of its restriction to 'gentler' conditions then why does a pile of horse manure (yourself) feel it's the opposite?

I don't doubt that 30 years ago, the army folks did a thorough job at looking at all available options and the costs involved. It would have been ok if they had implemented it within that decade. However, the elapse of 3 decades changes the scenario.....and due to bureaucratic and other issues, they're still sticking to an old doctrine! ATAGS was designed to fit that old doctrine!

If an army is defending its border or invading another, the modern weapons locating radars will give away your precise location. As such modern artillery dictates that you lob several rounds, and then move to a new location quickly to lob few more! If you're dug into the same position then you're inviting some precision retaliation! Indian army fires its towed guns from specific 'firing pits' that are supposed to protect the crew against retaliatory fire........but the flip side is that such pits will become known ahead of time by simple surveillance!

You probably won't understand any of the details/arguments presented, but I can bet you'll come back with some nonsensical response. Surprise me!

 

[Bhadra]

Are there any follow up orders on the K9 Vajra? Or is the SP type limited to 100 guns?



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So far there is order for 100 numbers only. That makes it to be about five regiments.

The tracked artillery is most useful for employment in mobile warfare which is conducted cross country. The system is useful for supporting what mobile warfare exponents call "Thrust Lines".
An armoured division is generally organised for two thrust lines. For each thrust line artillery support by one regiment each (18 guns) is bare essential under condition of it going beyond the range of other guns.. Thus one armored division would require minimum two regiments (36 Guns).

Open source tell us that India has three armoured Divisions. Two of the divisions simultaneously launched will take 72 Guns (four regiments) with them. The left over one regiment (18 guns) probably would be required by the third armoured division to counter poise, follow up or launch a subsidiary thrust. So we are still short of minimum one regt.

The requirement has been reduced due to better range of 155mm guns which will be able to support armour columns upto 18 km without redeployment.

in mobile warfare, independent armoured brigades play important roles and require their own dedicated artillery support. From initial order of 100, it appears that those have not been given tracked artillery. So in times to come there might be follow on orders for five more regiments (100 tracked guns) specially Indian Army is not procuring for truck mounted guns,

Tracked regiments would only be very useful for Cholistan and Sindh where communication on Pakistani side are not well developed. Thus these have limited area of employment. Those can not be shifted out of theatre, are costly in procurement and maintenance as also turnover. May be those factors could inhibit Army from procuring more tracked artillery.

 

[Enquirer]

Titanium for USA is supplied by Russia as USA has limited Titanium reserve.

About DRDO/OFB not making M777 type guns, first questions like "quantity requirement" and "cost" comes into picture. It may appear simple to make few dozen guns a year but will it be cost effective when we need in large numbers (thousands per year) during war?

Kalyani has been working on a 'special alloy' (aluminum based) guns that are supposed to be light.

IMHO if Kalyani can crack the soft-recoil (or Hybrid recoil as they call it) technology then super light guns should be possible...

Remember that despite the current order for M777s, there's still a need for 290 more such guns as per the army's plan.