Indian Army Artillery

[Enquirer]

After news of the T90MS deal yesterday now this?

http://www.spslandforces.com/news/default.asp?id=374

WATF

With Dhanush 45 delivered, Dhanush-52 under testing and ATAGS too why the fk is this imported deal
For foreign 155/52 towed guns being progressed?

Corrupt b@stards

Not sure how accurate the details about this 'competition' in the article are.
The article says M777 as a 52 caliber gun; and Dhanush as a 42 caliber gun! Perhaps we should cross check with a more diligent reporter.

 

[abingdonboy]

This is what buys support of world powers! :biggrin2:

On a side note we need modern artillery in massive numbers ASAP! Every bit helps!

This would be the most ridiculous possible situation.

3-4 155/52 towed guns (isn’t BF working on their own 155/52 gun?) within the same army- all with their own logistical footprint.

What about harmonisation of trainings/spares? Will these idiots never learn?

While the requirement is for 1,580 towed guns, reports have suggested the possibility of the order being pruned to 400 imported guns. For the acquisition of the remaining 1,180 guns which were meant to be made in India under transfer of technology, the Government may opt instead for the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in partnership with Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge.

Every ETHOS is one less ATAGS that can be ordered.

ATAGS is one of THE best (if not the best) gun in the 155/52 class, utterly unneeded to import.

Fair enough if this deal had been signed in 2010 deliveries commencing in 2013 but deal signed in 2019/20 to be delivered in 2022/3 around the time ATAGS deliveries commence? Beyond madness.

Give mass ordered for ATAGS and production will be ramped up accordingly. BF say they can churn out 100+ of these beasts a year

 

[Aaj ka hero]

First : interesting bit is that Bharat Forge is involved in both projects... ATHOS 2052 as well as ATAGS..
Second : Relax!! this is a source based news article..
.
Third : what the hell is wrong with young people these days(assuming you are one)? having a opinion is not important, but having an informed opinion is very important. you should not be forming opinions based on one news report, which could very well be a planted report. companies play such games, in such high stake deals.

Sirji, you are true I am a younger lot, but after t-90ms deal, sig sauer and ak-203 deal. I feel this can also be a true, I really hope it is not. You all discussed how ATAGS is a game changer and everyone in indian media(I mean reliable defence ones) and strategic circle also said "time for indigenous products has came" .
So, this type of news don't go well with me.

 

[ezsasa]

Sirji, you are true I am a younger lot, but after t-90ms deal, sig sauer and ak-203 deal. I feel this can also be a true, I really hope it is not. You all discussed how ATAGS is a game changer and everyone in indian media(I mean reliable defence ones) and strategic circle also said "time for indigenous products has came" .
So, this type of news don't go well with me.

That's ok.... we will know soon enough... so far there are no indications that, what you fear will happen.. ATAGS is still on the cards...

 

[Indrajit]

While the requirement is for 1,580 towed guns, reports have suggested the possibility of the order being pruned to 400 imported guns. For the acquisition of the remaining 1,180 guns which were meant to be made in India under transfer of technology, the Government may opt instead for the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in partnership with Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge.

The cost of these being cheaper than Dhanush is a bit meaningless. That’s made in an government owned factory in India. It will have to be significantly cheaper than Dhanush to even be a point of discussion.

 

[Frontrunner]

The army has flagged several issues in ATAGS, which is why they say they are not ordering the gun yet. The gun weighs 20 tonnes, nearly 70 per cent over its 12-tonne weight limit. The weight restrictions are because most bridges in the mountainous forward areas are designed to bear 18-tonne loads. On the plains, too, the added weight can lead to mobility issues because the army's 6x6 artillery towing trucks are designed for 12-tonne guns. Inducting ATAGS in its present form would mean more investments in heavier trucks. The imported towed artillery pieces, they point out, weigh only 15 tonnes. The weight issue, the army points out, flows from the DRDO increasing the gun chamber's capacity-where the shell is actually ignited-from 22 litres to 25 litres. A larger chamber meant higher pressure and thus greater range but it increased the weight. It is also yet to demonstrate sustained firing "like an automatic rifle", an army officer says. "What we now have is the gun firing in single shot mode, like a bolt-action rifle. This is the excerpt i picked from sandeep unnithan article about atags... As highlighted weight is an issue for atags.. elbit athos weighs 13 ton. Has drdo addressed the weight issues? Any news about it?

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

After news of the T90MS deal yesterday now this?

http://www.spslandforces.com/news/default.asp?id=374

WATF

With Dhanush 45 delivered, Dhanush-52 under testing and ATAGS too why the fk is this imported deal
For foreign 155/52 towed guns being progressed?

Corrupt b@stards

T90MS se kya problem hai?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Kay]

The army has flagged several issues in ATAGS, which is why they say they are not ordering the gun yet. The gun weighs 20 tonnes, nearly 70 per cent over its 12-tonne weight limit. The weight restrictions are because most bridges in the mountainous forward areas are designed to bear 18-tonne loads. On the plains, too, the added weight can lead to mobility issues because the army's 6x6 artillery towing trucks are designed for 12-tonne guns. Inducting ATAGS in its present form would mean more investments in heavier trucks. The imported towed artillery pieces, they point out, weigh only 15 tonnes. The weight issue, the army points out, flows from the DRDO increasing the gun chamber's capacity-where the shell is actually ignited-from 22 litres to 25 litres. A larger chamber meant higher pressure and thus greater range but it increased the weight. It is also yet to demonstrate sustained firing "like an automatic rifle", an army officer says. "What we now have is the gun firing in single shot mode, like a bolt-action rifle. This is the excerpt i picked from sandeep unnithan article about atags... As highlighted weight is an issue for atags.. elbit athos weighs 13 ton. Has drdo addressed the weight issues? Any news about it?

Classic bullshit from army as expected.
So, if the imported guns weigh 15 tons, how can they be towed by trucks which can tow upto 12 tons. Also, the ATAGs has a carrying capacity of 6 rounds compared to 3 for Athos - hence the weight increase. Increased carrying capacity means initial burst is quicker.

Funny, how it is the bridges everytime..

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

The army has flagged several issues in ATAGS, which is why they say they are not ordering the gun yet. The gun weighs 20 tonnes, nearly 70 per cent over its 12-tonne weight limit. The weight restrictions are because most bridges in the mountainous forward areas are designed to bear 18-tonne loads. On the plains, too, the added weight can lead to mobility issues because the army's 6x6 artillery towing trucks are designed for 12-tonne guns. Inducting ATAGS in its present form would mean more investments in heavier trucks. The imported towed artillery pieces, they point out, weigh only 15 tonnes. The weight issue, the army points out, flows from the DRDO increasing the gun chamber's capacity-where the shell is actually ignited-from 22 litres to 25 litres. A larger chamber meant higher pressure and thus greater range but it increased the weight. It is also yet to demonstrate sustained firing "like an automatic rifle", an army officer says. "What we now have is the gun firing in single shot mode, like a bolt-action rifle. This is the excerpt i picked from sandeep unnithan article about atags... As highlighted weight is an issue for atags.. elbit athos weighs 13 ton. Has drdo addressed the weight issues? Any news about it?

150 ATAGS are already ordered.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Frontrunner]

I know it has been ordered. I just posted the excerpt from the article highlighting weight and other issues. The article was published in February 2018. Now i had heard Kalyani group representative saying that they are addressing weight issues and the new prototype will be lighter. However the pictures is still vague. Army had raised their issues wether it has been addressed or not it is still not much clear.

150 ATAGS are already ordered.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Enquirer]

The army has flagged several issues in ATAGS, which is why they say they are not ordering the gun yet. The gun weighs 20 tonnes, nearly 70 per cent over its 12-tonne weight limit. The weight restrictions are because most bridges in the mountainous forward areas are designed to bear 18-tonne loads. On the plains, too, the added weight can lead to mobility issues because the army's 6x6 artillery towing trucks are designed for 12-tonne guns. Inducting ATAGS in its present form would mean more investments in heavier trucks. The imported towed artillery pieces, they point out, weigh only 15 tonnes. The weight issue, the army points out, flows from the DRDO increasing the gun chamber's capacity-where the shell is actually ignited-from 22 litres to 25 litres. A larger chamber meant higher pressure and thus greater range but it increased the weight. It is also yet to demonstrate sustained firing "like an automatic rifle", an army officer says. "What we now have is the gun firing in single shot mode, like a bolt-action rifle. This is the excerpt i picked from sandeep unnithan article about atags... As highlighted weight is an issue for atags.. elbit athos weighs 13 ton. Has drdo addressed the weight issues? Any news about it?

The 12 tonne mark is not an Army requirement, but a bombastic claim that DRDO made when they were still 'sketching' it with a pencil & eraser! They used that figure to claim that ATAGS will be the LIGHTEST & BEST gun in the world.
DRDO is already working on weight reduction. The current weight is 18 tonnes not 20. I think they'll try to shave off 2-3 tonnes (not more than that). A 15 tonne gun with ATAGS capability is still a great one!

The bridge/roads were never an issue with the ATAGS weight, it was always the power of the towing truck.
Also, they won't be using any odd truck. The ATAGS towing truck is specially designed to house the large team, plus carry the required ammo.

 

[Frontrunner]

Well if seeing through same lens which army is wearing we can know whatever they have said is true from a customer pov. Army is the customer here and they are paying the money alloted from their budget for them it doesn't matter whether the arms are imported or indigenous. Its not for them to worry about that, what they seek is any arms or weapons instruments they pick should be world class without any glaring isuees. If for faulty arms behind the cloak of indigenous items a la insas is shoved down the throat of army it won't bode well for the army. My point being we have to stike the perfect combination between the two ( indeginous & imported ). Who doesn't want an indeginous weapon but not at the expense of army's capabilities. Army reserve their rights to raise issues if any in indeginous weapons.

Classic bullshit from army as expected.
So, if the imported guns weigh 15 tons, how can they be towed by trucks which can tow upto 12 tons. Also, the ATAGs has a carrying capacity of 6 rounds compared to 3 for Athos - hence the weight increase. Increased carrying capacity means initial burst is quicker.

Funny, how it is the bridges everytime..

 

[Frontrunner]

Exactly, i concur. Enuff with this braggadocio of drdo hal and other psu's. Everytime they draw a weapons platform they come a loft with all trumpets and drums that how their weapons would be the world beater and how they will do this do that however only to get mirred with delays and inefficiencies. I know they aren't entirely at fault but these psu's seriously need to pull up their socks. Decades of mismanagements and delays have already proved much detrimental for our armed forces.

The 12 tonne mark is not an Army requirement, but a bombastic claim that DRDO made when they were still 'sketching' it with a pencil & eraser! They used that figure to claim that ATAGS will be the LIGHTEST & BEST gun in the world.
DRDO is already working on weight reduction. The current weight is 18 tonnes not 20. I think they'll try to shave off 2-3 tonnes (not more than that). A 15 tonne gun with ATAGS capability is still a great one!

The bridge/roads were never an issue with the ATAGS weight, it was always the power of the towing truck.
Also, they won't be using any odd truck. The ATAGS towing truck is specially designed to house the large team, plus carry the required ammo.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Simply ATAGS offers more, so definitely it's weight will increase, it's not like athos has everything that ATAGS has.
IF YOU WANT More, then of course weight will be there.
Problem is not with ATAGS problem is with mindset of army.
When project started and was in trials, army were there.
No one can say army never played a part in the development of ATAGS.
SERIOUSLY something off is here.
Or Israeli did their famous business maneuver.

 

[Neil]

Elbit beats Nexter in epic battle to win Indian 155 mm, 52 calibre towed gun competition

Israeli Elbit has won the Indian Army’s 155 mm, 52 calibre towed artillery gun competition, of which the import content alone is valued at over $ 1 Billion. Elbit’s Indian partner is Bharat Forge. “The Elbit-Bharat Forge bid for the ATHOS 2052 howitzer was found significantly lower than that of French Nexter, which offered the Trajan gun jointly with its Indian partner Larsen & Toubro,” highly-placed sources told SP’s Correspondent. These guns have a firing range of above 40 km.

Sources hinted that the Elbit-Bharat Forge combine has pulled its price below even that of the Dhanush 155 mm, 42 calibre artillery gun produced by the Ordnance Factory Board of which the first six were handed over to the Indian Army on April 8. Even though it enjoys a big leeway as an indigenous effort, the ATAGS will be hard pressed to match the price of Elbit’s ATHOS 2052

This was an epic arms bazaar battle, involving several rounds of tendering and trials since the beginning of the last decade. The declaration of Elbit as ‘L1’ has cleared the decks for price negotiations.



While the requirement is for 1,580 towed guns, reports have suggested the possibility of the order being pruned to 400 imported guns. For the acquisition of the remaining 1,180 guns which were meant to be made in India under transfer of technology, the Government may opt instead for the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in partnership with Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge.

But sources hinted that the Elbit-Bharat Forge combine has pulled its price below even that of the Dhanush 155 mm, 42 calibre artillery gun produced by the Ordnance Factory Board of which the first six were handed over to the Indian Army on April 8. Even though it enjoys a big leeway as an indigenous effort, the ATAGS will be hard pressed to match the price of Elbit’s ATHOS 2052.

The Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Programme (FARP) – probably the world’s largest – was approved in 1999 to equip 169 artillery regiments with over 3,000 155 mm guns by 2027. One artillery regiment is usually equipped with 18 guns. Cost estimates are in the $8 to 10 Billion bracket. The programme, involving the acquisition of 1,580 towed, 400 self-propelled, 814 mounted and 145 ultra light howitzers, will take decades for fruition. The order for 114 Dhanush guns may also grow to 400.

Adrift for two decades, India’s artillery modernisation plan appears finally falling into place. In 2018, the Indian Army started inducting the M777 ultra light howitzers and the K-9 Vajra tracked self-propelled guns. Both these guns are in the 155 mm, 52 calibre class, and the Indian Army’s first new artillery inductions since the infamous Bofors deal in 1986. The Dhanush, an upgrade of the Bofors FH-77B by the OFB, too has provided some cheer. The Army is buying 145 M777s, 100 K-9 Vajras, and has committed an order for 114 Dhanush guns after receiving the first six.

The Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Programme (FARP) – probably the world’s largest – was approved in 1999 to equip 169 artillery regiments with over 3,000 155 mm guns by 2027. One artillery regiment is usually equipped with 18 guns. Cost estimates are in the $8 to 10 Billion bracket. The programme, involving the acquisition of 1,580 towed, 400 self-propelled, 814 mounted and 145 ultra light howitzers, will take decades for fruition. The order for 114 Dhanush guns may also grow to 400.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/E...5-mm,-52-calibre-towed-gun-competition-584056

Why do we another foreign system? Desi programs are progressing at a steady pace.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Elbit beats Nexter in epic battle to win Indian 155 mm, 52 calibre towed gun competition

Israeli Elbit has won the Indian Army’s 155 mm, 52 calibre towed artillery gun competition, of which the import content alone is valued at over $ 1 Billion. Elbit’s Indian partner is Bharat Forge. “The Elbit-Bharat Forge bid for the ATHOS 2052 howitzer was found significantly lower than that of French Nexter, which offered the Trajan gun jointly with its Indian partner Larsen & Toubro,” highly-placed sources told SP’s Correspondent. These guns have a firing range of above 40 km.

Sources hinted that the Elbit-Bharat Forge combine has pulled its price below even that of the Dhanush 155 mm, 42 calibre artillery gun produced by the Ordnance Factory Board of which the first six were handed over to the Indian Army on April 8. Even though it enjoys a big leeway as an indigenous effort, the ATAGS will be hard pressed to match the price of Elbit’s ATHOS 2052

This was an epic arms bazaar battle, involving several rounds of tendering and trials since the beginning of the last decade. The declaration of Elbit as ‘L1’ has cleared the decks for price negotiations.



While the requirement is for 1,580 towed guns, reports have suggested the possibility of the order being pruned to 400 imported guns. For the acquisition of the remaining 1,180 guns which were meant to be made in India under transfer of technology, the Government may opt instead for the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in partnership with Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge.

But sources hinted that the Elbit-Bharat Forge combine has pulled its price below even that of the Dhanush 155 mm, 42 calibre artillery gun produced by the Ordnance Factory Board of which the first six were handed over to the Indian Army on April 8. Even though it enjoys a big leeway as an indigenous effort, the ATAGS will be hard pressed to match the price of Elbit’s ATHOS 2052.

The Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Programme (FARP) – probably the world’s largest – was approved in 1999 to equip 169 artillery regiments with over 3,000 155 mm guns by 2027. One artillery regiment is usually equipped with 18 guns. Cost estimates are in the $8 to 10 Billion bracket. The programme, involving the acquisition of 1,580 towed, 400 self-propelled, 814 mounted and 145 ultra light howitzers, will take decades for fruition. The order for 114 Dhanush guns may also grow to 400.

Adrift for two decades, India’s artillery modernisation plan appears finally falling into place. In 2018, the Indian Army started inducting the M777 ultra light howitzers and the K-9 Vajra tracked self-propelled guns. Both these guns are in the 155 mm, 52 calibre class, and the Indian Army’s first new artillery inductions since the infamous Bofors deal in 1986. The Dhanush, an upgrade of the Bofors FH-77B by the OFB, too has provided some cheer. The Army is buying 145 M777s, 100 K-9 Vajras, and has committed an order for 114 Dhanush guns after receiving the first six.

The Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Programme (FARP) – probably the world’s largest – was approved in 1999 to equip 169 artillery regiments with over 3,000 155 mm guns by 2027. One artillery regiment is usually equipped with 18 guns. Cost estimates are in the $8 to 10 Billion bracket. The programme, involving the acquisition of 1,580 towed, 400 self-propelled, 814 mounted and 145 ultra light howitzers, will take decades for fruition. The order for 114 Dhanush guns may also grow to 400.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/E...5-mm,-52-calibre-towed-gun-competition-584056

Why do we another foreign system? Desi programs are progressing at a steady pace.

Massive backlog of artillery systems in India.

 

[Bleh]

This is what buys support of world powers! :biggrin2:

On a side note we need modern artillery in massive numbers ASAP! Every bit helps!

Then buy both TATA & Kalyani's ATAGS.

While the requirement is for 1,580 towed guns, reports have suggested the possibility of the order being pruned to 400 imported guns. For the acquisition of the remaining 1,180 guns which were meant to be made in India under transfer of technology, the Government may opt instead for the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in partnership with Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge.

Buying 400 guns of 15t for the mountains (18t bridges) & rest for the plains, would be somewhat acceptable though... would make sense.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Then buy both TATA & Kalyani's ATAGS.

Bharat Forge is partnered with Elbit which won the contract! Thoda kuch samjho!

:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

 

[samsaptaka]

Army is the customer here and they are paying the money alloted from their budget for them it doesn't matter whether the arms are imported or indigenous.

NO. It should matter to the army whether arms are imported or indigenous. They must support local
industry because importing everything under the sun will become a problem during war time.
As country you should not be dependent on others for military stuff.
Having indigenous arms ensures WE have control over it and can easily modify it and maintain it as
and when required. Army top brass seem very short sighted in thinking. They have to look towards
supporting our own industry and work together.
Agree that defence PSUs are corrupt and lazy bastards, but since ATAGS is by Kalyani, I really don't
understand this attitude of army. Atleast work with pvt defence industry and help built pvt defence industry
for the long term. It will pay off in the future.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Last night this news came and destroyed my sleep.
Since then I came to a conclusion.
LET'S ASSUME THIS NEWS BY SP PUBLICATIONS IS 100% true.
I want all DFI members to look at my small points that I am giving below and decide if I am true or not.

• DHANUSH CAME-army originally wanted 52 mm gun but decided for time being it is OKAY and went with 45 mm gun.

That may be one reason for 114 gun order (fuck the small order mindset).

• Then CAME ATAGS all high hopes were pinned on it, it performed good, had more weight because army desired "fully electric drive and more autonomous system" hence weight increased and weight became 18 tons. Now, weight decrease and another things are going on.

Unless, untill weight does not go below 15 tons army will not place order because it's "bridge not capable".
And initial order was made of 150 guns.

• Now here come Athos I say NAME IT OH MY GOD gun from Israelis.

It hit all good spot can fire above 40 kms weight is 13 tons. In india every bridge now will be tailored made for this "beautiful jointly developed gun" and hence this gun is chosen now.
So,members I want to make a nostradamus prediction which has 90 percent chance IMPORT LOBBY WILL SURELY make it come true.
ATAGS-less than 400 because it is "heavy"
New category created by our import lobby.
DHANUSH-Don't want 45 mm and 52 mm will take time. SO less than 200.
OH MY GOD sorry "Athos" MADE IN Israel - More than 1000 because it is "perfect".
So, my members be prepared our good import lobby WILL CREATE category even in towed howitzer.

• HEAVY-ATAGS even if it become 16 ton.
• TIME Pass or URGENT-dhanush at 13 tons but with 45 mm.
• PERFECT-ATHOS 2052.

HENCE,Athos will be ordered and another import of more than 1 billion dollars.
Why? because "hamaaare paas bahut pause hai".
Army ko best to the point weapon chahiye bhale hi swarg waasi Manohar parikar ji ne kaha tha ek baar "armed forces some orders are like star wars weapons".EVEN THEN OUR ARMY NEVER CAME TO REALIZE "how it take time to make a perfect weapon".
Oi bhai @Frontrunner what you will say about this, it is true na :bounce:my above points.
Even world famous ak-47 went through some gruesome trials and years of development before becoming legend in Vietnam War BUT BUT WE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR ATAGS then when will we have, when we are in WAR.