Indian Army Artillery

[Bhadra]

That is called airburst fuze. That isn't proximity based but manually timed. This was used in early anti-aircraft guns too. They don't have electronics!

Tiwari ji, aisa julam mat karo.

Airburst can be achieved by many means by mechanical or electronic fuzes.

Airburst Fuzes

* Time Fuzes (mechanical or electronic)

* Proximity Fuzes (both types)

* Distance Measuring Fuzes (both modes)

* Electronic Time Fuzes

* Multifunction Fuzes (electronic)

This is applicable to you. Give me source that artillery shells have electronic fuse

Where are you and in which world. Kyon Gazab karoge?

This is the age of "smart munition" where guns / shells are used for achieving objective based results rather than for being target oriented.. The targets are not banged for being targets but for achieving objectives - destroy, neutralise, mask, cause casualties, harass, deter, shock and paralyse. Modern armies want it quick, effective, very accurate, reliable and overall economical. Achieve objective with ten shells which otherwise would have taken 100 rounds.

Almost all countries in the world are using smart munition. What makes a shell smart is its mind - and Fuze is the mind of a shell. Almost all modern fuzes are "electronic" fuzes based on radio wave or laser technologies. All fuzing functions of safing, guiding, surfing, target acquisition and initiating the charge are effectively carried out by electronic fuzes.

There many advantages of using these fuzes and all most all indirect fire system down to 60mm mortars are using electronic fuzes.

India has just started after a very long slumber.

 

[Bhadra]

Here are Listed some of the advantages of Electronic Fuzes

 

[Bhadra]

Advantages of Electronic Fuzes Cont.....

 

[Bhadra]

advantages of Electronic Fuzes Cont......

 

[Bhadra]

Advantages of Electronic Fuzes Cont....

 

[Bhadra]

Advantages cont ...

 

[Bhadra]

Those were technical advantages ppt of DRDO ---
However, what I see is that the real advantages are some where else :

Advantages :

· # Multi-mode operations gives multiple choices for employment.

· # Accuracy. ,, more damages with less ammunition leading to economy
· Less munition expenditure due to more accuracy.

· # Overall economy due – saving in ammunition and logistics.

· # More safety to friendly forces and less collateral damage.

· # More first round hit probability – more damage / destruction in target area.

· # Objective oriented fire operations rather than target oriented operations – saves ammunition, time and ease of operations based on ammunition tables.

· # Flexibility.

· # Overcomes uncertainties.

· # Remote target sensing, acquisition and tracking possible.

· # Reliability.

· # Better and accurate damage assessment.

 

[Bhadra]

People forget that 130mm guns of Soviet origin are still very effective guns. Only issue is these are designed for plains. Bofors, Dhanush, M777, AThos, ATAGS are the guns for mountains.

Indian 105mm guns are also quite good for mountains for troops in the open but fall short in destroying bunkers.

# Some 130 mm are upgunned for 155
# 155 mm howitzers are designed for all terrains . Since those are howitzers they can fire in high angles and hence also good for mountains.

The main issue is somewhere else.

Artillery is essentially a support arm - that is to mean that it supports operations of Tanks and infantry in offensive and defensive operations. In defence, it fires on enemy advancing on own troops as close as possible. Similarily, it supports or carries own troops for attack as close to enemy as possible. The distance at which such artillary fire stops is called safety distance.

Now compare the situation ... 105 mm guns and mortars will support till 100 -150 meters from the target. However in case of 155 the firing will stop when own troops are 300 meters of distance. It means 150 meters of unsupported operations. That is quite significant and problematic.

Would you like to sit in those trenches ??

 

[laughingbuddha]

PLA to field a longer range(280km) 370mm guided rocket system to fill the gap between PHL-03A 300mm MRLS and SRBM, which is expected to showcase at this year's military parade. Photo is the AR3 MRLS for export. https://t.co/qrPiTRqcmN

 

[sthf]

PLA to field a longer range(280km) 370mm guided rocket system to fill the gap between PHL-03A 300mm MRLS and SRBM, which is expected to showcase at this year's military parade. Photo is the AR3 MRLS for export. https://t.co/qrPiTRqcmN

View attachment 34937

I never believed the Chinese hype of hundreds of km range rockets but even if you cut the range by half, it is pretty impressive.

Persistence in R&D is bearing fruits.

 

[Prashant12]

Trials of advanced artillery gun begin in Pokhran range


JAISALMER: India’s first high capacity indigenous long range 155mm/52 gun and Dhanush’s supplement ATAGS (Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System) firing user trials of next stage began from Friday. The trials began at Pokhran field firing range of Jaisalmer district.

The Indian Army has begun finalising the preliminary specifications qualitative requirements (PSQR). Defence Research & Defence Organisation (DRDO) and senior army officers were present at the trials. The gun during its last trials had fired 47.2 kms long distance which was world’s longest distance. Source said that on Friday 48 rounds were fired and on Saturday 12 rounds were fired. Two guns are currently undergoing trials and two more guns will have their trials in a month. The PSQR should be ready by July. Till now there is a sanction for production of 10 guns as part of the development process. The gun currently weighs about 18 tonnes while the ideal weight for the army would be 14-15 tonnes.

Sources said ATAGS is being developed by DRDO on two parallel tracks – one prototype in partnership with Tata Power and another with Kaveri Group (Bharat Forge).

Sources said once the PSQRs are approved, the process for formulating the final qualitative requirements would begin. Guns from both Bharat Forge and Tata Power would be evaluated and based on the commercial bids, the order would be split between them with the lowest bidder getting a larger order. The defence ministry has already approved in-principle purchase of 150 of these guns at an approximate cost of 3,365 crore.

At the moment the firing capacity is being checked on different parameters such as climate, terrain, range accuracy, etc and these guns are performing as per the expectation. The ammunition is also being checked. The gun has world’s longest hitting capacity. The user trials will go on for four more days.

The ATAGS, India’s first indigenous 155mm/52-caliber towed artillery gun will be a joint project of two private-sector corporations. This is a reversal of the usual practice of giving only state-owned companies these kinds of orders.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...t&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst&from=mdr

 

[Bhadra]

Kalyani Group likely to bag biggest chuck of orders for ATAGS Guns

Published July 5, 2019 | By admin SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK
idrw.org .Rea
http://idrw.org/kalyani-group-likely-to-bag-chuck-of-orders-for-atags-guns/#more-205011 .

Four Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) are at the advanced stage of user-assisted trials of the gun and the Army has begun finalizing the Preliminary Specifications Qualitative Requirements (PSQR) of the 155mm, 52 caliber gun which will clear decks for production of 150 guns in the bulk production clearance order which will be split between Kalyani Group and Tata Power who have developed two guns each at the developmental stage.

The Estimated INR 36.65 billion (USD524 million) order will be won by the company depending on the performance of the gun and commercial bids and the lowest bidder who will be L1, will be awarded a contract to build 107 of the 150 ATAGSs while the runner-up will be allowed to manufacture the remaining 43 guns of the same model.

Kalyani Group developed ATAGS variant had briefly set a new world record in range by hitting targets at a distance of 48 km. TATA Power developed gun uses the same barrel manufactured by the Kalyani Group and the company already has invested in the production facility which will make them likely winner after commercial bids are opened.

Kalyani Group already has announced that it can manufacture nearly 250 ATAGS Guns at its facility per year and since Indian Army has requirement of nearly 2000 ATAGS guns over 800 Dhanush 155 mm x 45 calibre long-range artillery gun, both companies will be sharing a 30,000 crore in business for the production of the ATAGS eco-system, but also in process benefiting a large number of smaller private defense firms.

ATAGS gun currently weighs about 18 tonnes while the ideal weight for the army would be 14-15 tonne. It will all depend if the Indian Army’s PSQR has relaxed weight parameters and focuses on accuracy and firing parameters in user-assisted trials of the gun. ATAGS Guns has a large chamber of 25 litres when compared to 23 litres in most 155-millimeter guns in production world over. A larger chamber packs in the more higher explosive propellant, which shoots out the warhead further but to cater for this higher shock of firing, Gun needs to be heavier.

Kalyani Group has promised to look into weight issue if Indian Army insists on weight reduction and have already come up with plans to use of special alloys along with titanium components to further reduce the weight of the gun, but use of special metals will mean that it is likely to shoot up the unit cost of each gun further. Indian Army is yet to officially comment on the weight of the ATAGS Guns but it is likely will decide on it pretty soon most likely by end of this year.

http://idrw.org/kalyani-group-likely-to-bag-chuck-of-orders-for-atags-guns/#more-205011 .

 

[Prashant12]

Artillery gun next trials in September


JAISALMER: Bharat Forge CEO Rajinder Singh Bhatia has said the next phase of trials of the country’s first fully integrated Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) will be held in September, before the artillery gun is inducted into the army next year.

Bharat Forge, part of the Kalyani Group – A $3 billion conglomerate with 10,000 global work force — is manufacturing the ATAGS, the first indigenously built 155 mm/52-calibre towed gun and one of the few in the world that has the six-round automated magazine that fires in 30 seconds.

The existing 155 mm/52-calibre guns have threeround magazines which need to be reloaded manually, often resulting in casualties during the exercises due to maximum burst.

During an exclusive interview with the TOI, Bhatia said the gun would strengthen the army’s firepower manifold. Bhatia said the User Assistant Technical Trial (UATT) of ATAGS had been completed in Pokhran field firing range in Jaisalmerand the next phase is scheduled in September.

Bhatia claimed that ATAGS had an electronic system in place instead of hydraulics. Earlier, during summers and winters, the hydraulic system used to often get jammed. Bhatia said the company had also manufactured an ultra-light gun which could be taken to mountains without much effort. He added that the gun at 4.7 tons was much lighter than the American 777 howitzer which weighed 6.7 tons. He added that the gun was accurate and easy to handle. “Trials had been done earlier and it can be taken anywhere by a helicopter in two parts,” he said.
On the 105mm-37caliber 900kg Garuda gun, Bhatia said it contained a lot of features and could be towed by any 4x4 vehicle. He added the army had already carried out trials and many countries had shown interest in it. Currently, its trials are going on in the United States, he said.
The Bharat Forge CEO said new technologies had been developed to make the defence sector self-dependent. Along with guns, the company had manufactured gas turbines, transmission lines and armed vehicles, which till now had to be imported.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-trials-in-september/articleshow/70082160.cms

 

[Killswitch]

The army needs to accept an 18 tons ATAGS and stop complaining. If they can't do that, start firing people.

 

[AnantS]

The army needs to accept an 18 tons ATAGS and stop complaining. If they can't do that, start firing people.

No, what seems is that weight reduction is possible albeit it will raise per unit cost of ATAGS because they might need to use Ti based alloys or something else.

OT:

But given Pensions are eating majority defense outlay it seems - where will Govt get the money - More Tax on Middle class?

 

[Bhadra]

No, what seems is that weight reduction is possible albeit it will raise per unit cost of ATAGS because they might need to use Ti based alloys or something else.

OT:

But given Pensions are eating majority defense outlay it seems - where will Govt get the money - More Tax on Middle class?

For a terrain profile like that exists astride our borders - mountenious, riverine, low hills, deserts etc and existing infrastructure there weight effecting mobility is definitely a factor or why would India pay for a system like ULH through her nose.

Indian Army artillery, in fact is looking for an independent APU type of system for all varieties of guns to negotiate difficult turns on hill roads so that guns could be moved after detaching the tower vehicles.

Army will formulate its PSQR on 155mm Howitzer and decide accordingly. But one thing is sure that army did not ask them to make 18 ton guns system. Given that the existing competitors have a weight less than 14-15 tons the weight issue will definitely be a determinant.

The price issue is for the manufacturer to decide under competitive bidding system of financial rules. So if ATAGS and kalyani has to remain in competition it has to decide on the price themselves unless Army decides that 18 ton weight and associated factors (larger chamber and bigger heavy recoil system) is better than 14 ton and therefore the govt should pay more for it.

And where the heck the pension have come into it ? Why can not the pension liability be shifted to Deptt of Personnel and Pensions or Social Welfare ministry. Why not do away with a behemoth defence civilian pay liabilities that are paid out of Defence Service estimates ? What is need of thousands of CDA employees to be in Defence Ministry? All OFB / DPSU employees and DRDO etc can be shifted to Industry Ministry and Science and technology Ministry to reduce Defense liabilities.

You want to pay for the guns by reducing pension? why do not you suggest that all government employees including of DPSUs, PSUs, DRDO, CDA, Civil and Police services etc serve in the Armed forces on recruitment or appointment for five years but to be paid by recruiting agencies and ministry by keeping them on supernumerary strength. Then MoD does not have to pay the salary also. You can then buy many more guns.

Why target the soldiers only. You want the soldiers themselves to pay for your "defence" ? You are fit to be in Niti Ayoga..........

 

[AnantS]

For a terrain profile like that exists astride our borders - mountenious, riverine, low hills, deserts etc and existing infrastructure there weight effecting mobility is definitely a factor or why would India pay for a system like ULH through her nose.

Duh... Because its being made in india?

Indian Army artillery, in fact is looking for an independent APU type of system for all varieties of guns to negotiate difficult turns on hill roads so that guns could be moved after detaching the tower vehicles.

That does not reflect in design in ATAGS.. given this time Army seem to have been looped in. Albiet good idea for future iteration of ATAGS

Army will formulate its PSQR on 155mm Howitzer and decide accordingly. But one thing is sure that army did not ask them to make 18 ton guns system. Given that the existing competitors have a weight less than 14-15 tons the weight issue will definitely be a determinant.

Yes thats what I was alluding too. In your one of the posted Articles, Kalyani mentioned it can reduce weight further if Army is ready to pay for corresponding price rise. Seems good proposition.

The price issue is for the manufacturer to decide under competitive bidding system of financial rules. So if ATAGS and kalyani has to remain in competition it has to decide on the price themselves unless Army decides that 18 ton weight and associated factors (larger chamber and bigger heavy recoil system) is better than 14 ton and therefore the govt should pay more for it.

Yes Once the guns passes the qualitative requirements of Army - Govt should back the local deal - even if its slightly expensive or is in ballpark weight figure of competition. If this deal falls through - India can kiss good bye to future participation of private industry in defense development. Though Dalals will do Bhangra

And where the heck the pension have come into it ? Why can not the pension liability be shifted to Deptt of Personnel and Pensions or Social Welfare ministry. Why not do away with a behemoth defence civilian pay liabilities that are paid out of Defence Service estimates ? What is need of thousands of CDA employees to be in Defence Ministry? All OFB / DPSU employees and DRDO etc can be shifted to Industry Ministry and Science and technology Ministry to reduce Defense liabilities.

I was telling fact. Given this year has been lo real increase in defense outlay and what seems overall pensions are eating into defense budget - That seems it will seriously curtail spending power.

Why target the soldiers only. You want the soldiers themselves to pay for your "defence" ? You are fit to be in Niti Ayoga..........

Thanks .. can you recommend me. A cushy Govt Job is really salivating for people like us who dredging out in Lala companies.

 

[Bhadra]

Duh... Because its being made in india?

A patient lying on a surgical table is told by the surgeon that he is going to open his tummy with a blunt knife. The patient is aghast and asks why? The Doctor says because it is made in India.

"Made in India" only means of comparable quality if not better and comparable price if not cheaper. Otherwise made in India has no meaning.

That does not reflect in design in ATAGS.. given this time Army seem to have been looped in. Albiet good idea for future iteration of ATAGS

Most of the arms industry worldover makes products mainly to sell in international markets even if their own Armed Forces do not require it. The case so far for India is that we are trying to make for us and for our defence. Hence, the opportunities for any Industry to work on "iteration" model means we accepting substandards for our own security. "improvement in future" is good for producers but bad for user and the govt who have to foot the bill out of very limited resources and can not cater for frequent replacements.

Yes thats what I was alluding too. In your one of the posted Articles, Kalyani mentioned it can reduce weight further if Army is ready to pay for corresponding price rise. Seems good proposition.

No. If Army asked them for 18 ton gun and now want to reduce the weight then it is fine. But if they themselves have presented 18 ton gun and Army wants 14 ton guns then it is manufacturers problem to reduce the weight for their guns to be accepted. Why should Army pay for that. It simply is a competitive bidding that would finally decide the issue.

Yes Once the guns passes the qualitative requirements of Army - Govt should back the local deal -

Hundred per cent- yes.

even if its slightly expensive or is in ballpark weight figure of competition.

No sir. The GoI business must be conducted as per laid down rules. The Financial rules of the day say that the business must be conducted under financial benefits to the govt clause on L1. Financial prudence is the principle of govt financial transactions and should not be overlooked for the sake of expensive "made in India" .

If this deal falls through - India can kiss good bye to future participation of private industry in defense development. Though Dallas will do Bhangra

That is why single vendor situation and monopolistic practices are required to be avoided. There are many others in the fray. Kalyani themselves are manufacturing Rafael ATHOS, Then there TATA POWER version of ATAGS, then there is OFB version of 155/152 version of Dhanus and Nexter - all to be manufactured in India. Hence, DRDO / Kalyani should not be allowed to dictate terms. There is no Dalal or Dalali in that.

I was telling fact. Given this year has been lo real increase in defense outlay and what seems overall pensions are eating into defense budget - That seems it will seriously curtail spending power.

India today is maintaining more than ten lakh armed men and women under CAPF. On their recruitment why cannot they be send to Army for five years service ? Then they go to their respective CAPF and retie on completion of service with retirement liability on MHA as existing today. That will make CAPF constable much better trained, maintain young soldiers and officers profile in the Army and India will have a vast resrve of military trained manpower. Consider Army will have two to three lakh less pensioners every year. That will vastly take care of pensionary liability.

Any one who wishes to be recruited and serve in CAPF including their officers, serving for five years in the Army is just fine. However, they are darlings of political class being 50 per cent reservation types and thus protected so far. But give them to me and I will make soldiers of them......

Army's pensionary problems is India's mismanagement problems and many ways exist to sort it out rather than targeting wounded soldiers pension - a matter of shame for current dispensation......

Thanks .. can you recommend me. A cushy Govt Job is really salivating for people like us who dredging out in Lala companies.

Ok. Let me be there before you ........

 

[ezsasa]

So Excalibur is coming!!!!
======
Indian Army to buy American howitzer ammo for long-range accurate strikes

 

[aarav]

So Excalibur is coming!!!!
======
Indian Army to buy American howitzer ammo for long-range accurate strikes

It also clear one fact that M777 in indeed deployed near LoC and we could hit muzzafarabad ,first strike should be United Jihad council HQ