Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[airtel]

Tejas has no AESA and Indian EW suites. Only engine is imported.

UTTAM AESA has been developed with 20km range but a need for high powered GaN (Gallium Nitride) AESA has resulted in phase 2 development of UTTAM in possible collaboration with Israel.

The problem with EW suite for Tejas Mk1A is that it is too small and the size of Tejas has to increase to fit it in. At present EW suite can only come in a pod which is pretty bad but is never the less indigenous. It is because of this limitations, HAL wants to import EW suite to fit in Mk1A! I don't think anyone can offer such an EW suite that can fit in such a small aircraft which is already fully packed

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You should read this >> http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2017/01/dissecting-rfqs-of-halardc-for-tejas.html

they want new sensors ,new radars , new EW suite also they want to change entire electronics including the processor of the Tejas .

without a Good EW suite Tejas would not be able to defend itself .

There is nothing special about F16 except for AESA and engine over Tejas. So, F16 only has to give ToT for either engine or AESA.

except the better AESA radar , more powerful engine , More weapon carrying capacity ,more endurance , Longer range & Good EW suite .


dont expect any critical TOT from USA ..........................we have to develop our technologies ourselves .

 

[square]

What is the basis on which you are claiming F16 deal is already done? Any source?

circumstantial evidence only.....

1) gripen e is still under trail...
2) gripen e is too costly , over 120m$...
3) saab only assembles the plane , they outsourcse almost every item , that means they would only going to get a downgraded version of items cleared for third party export by the respected countries...
4) in terms of capacity , range , gripen offer no advantage over lca...
5) saab will take years to build the entire ecosystem , which the LM can do in month...

all above reasons ruleout gripen....

so , we have only one player left in single engine catagory....

on the other side...f16 will bring and open many doors for indian defence related industry.....its right that we won't get tot overnight....but it will open many jv.....and trust the indian , they are smart too.....

 

[Vijyes]

circumstantial evidence only.....

1) gripen e is still under trail...
2) gripen e is too costly , over 120m$...
3) saab only assembles the plane , they outsourcse almost every item , that means they would only going to get a downgraded version of items cleared for third party export by the respected countries...
4) in terms of capacity , range , gripen offer no advantage over lca...
5) saab will take years to build the entire ecosystem , which the LM can do in month...

all above reasons ruleout gripen....

so , we have only one player left in single engine catagory....

Who said that single engine planes is something India is looking at? What is so special in single engine plane that is not in dual engine plane? Why are you adamant about the number of engines?

Why shouldn't India buy Tejas and Rafale for now and Rafale being later replaced by AMCA? WHat is the reason you are hurrying instead of giving time to Modi to sort out things and ramp up indigenous production?

 

[square]

Who said that single engine planes is something India is looking at? What is so special in single engine plane that is not in dual engine plane? Why are you adamant about the number of engines?

Why shouldn't India buy Tejas and Rafale for now and Rafale being later replaced by AMCA? WHat is the reason you are hurrying instead of giving time to Modi to sort out things and ramp up indigenous production?

maintanence cost is the main reason for us to go for single engine ......and the US weapons costs almost 1/3 to that put on rafale....

 

[airtel]

inplace of two jv ( single engine and twin engine ) it would be better we have only one under make in india.....thats rafale...

rest of the numbers can be filled with lca....

but its seem f16 is more of a political deal , already done......

What is the basis on which you are claiming F16 deal is already done? Any source?

Who said that single engine planes is something India is looking at? What is so special in single engine plane that is not in dual engine plane? Why are you adamant about the number of engines?

Why shouldn't India buy Tejas and Rafale for now and Rafale being later replaced by AMCA? WHat is the reason you are hurrying instead of giving time to Modi to sort out things and ramp up indigenous production?

It is not about single Engine or double Engine ..................F-16 is the cheapest Fighter jet available in the market (excluding Russian & tejas ) .

rafale is better than F-16 but it is costly .

Just saying that one should pay billions for assembly lines is the most illogical thing I have ever heard.

TATA is a Private company which is Buying Assembly Line of LM . (TATA can Buy anything ) .

Indian Government may Buy jets but they are Not Paying for assembly Line .

 

[Vijyes]

You should read this >> http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2017/01/dissecting-rfqs-of-halardc-for-tejas.html

they want new sensors ,new radars , new EW suite also they want to change entire electronics including the processor of the Tejas .

without a Good EW suite Tejas would not be able to defend itself .



except the better AESA radar , more powerful engine , More weapon carrying capacity ,more endurance , Longer range & Good EW suite .


dont expect any critical TOT from USA ..........................we have to develop our technologies ourselves .

As I told before, EW suite can't fit into Mk1A and neither can AESA. That is why we are going for Mk2. Mk2 will have better AESA radar, more powerful engine and good EW suite. There is no emergency requirements for F16 as of now. Why do you want to buy them immediately? Are you getting commission?

If we have t]o develop our technology ourselves, then we must also buy our own stuff made by ourselves. We have made significant progress for our requirements and need time to complete. What s the urgency? Do you know how inadequate our tech is? Or is it that we just cant make them small enough for Tejas?

 

[Vijyes]

It is not about single Engine or double Engine ..................F-16 is the cheapest Fighter jet available in the market (excluding Russian & tejas ) .

rafale is better than F-16 but it is costly .




TATA is a Private company which is Buying Assembly Line of LM . (TATA can Buy anything ) .

Indian Government may Buy jets but they are Not Paying for assembly Line .

Of course, TATA can buy anything. But, without orders, they are unlikely to so that. it is just a pressure tactic to make us buy F16.
Of course, Rafale is costly but that's because it is much better. F16 s just comparable to Tejas Mk2 but x1.5 n mass and carry load. Asa a result, when mass producing, F16 will cost much more than Tejas. Tejas at present costs high as it isn't being mass produced. Else, Tejas Mk2 costs far less than F16.

Any indigenous item costs practically 0 as rupee can be controlled by govt by bonds or tax

 

[Vijyes]

maintanence cost is the main reason for us to go for single engine ......and the US weapons costs almost 1/3 to that put on rafale....

Indigenous items cost 0 as rupee can be controlled by govt. Why even bother about F16 when Tejas Mk2 is guaranteed? 5 years is enough for AESA, EW and BVR enhancement. Already 1st stage of development completed. Mk2 fuselage has to expand but that is also minor.

 

[airtel]

If we have t]o develop our technology ourselves, then we must also buy our own stuff made by ourselves.

I will support the Indian Product if it is really Indian .

if Most of the critical components are made By foreign companies then it is not really an Indian product ........................it is also an assembling job .

Let them Make an Indian Fighter jet ( at-least with an Indian Engine , Indian EW suite & Indian AESA radar ) .

 

[Vijyes]

I will support the Indian Product if it is really Indian .

if Most of the critical components are made By foreign companies then it is not really an Indian product ........................it is also an assembling job .

Let them Make an Indian Fighter jet ( at-least with an Indian Engine , Indian EW suite & Indian AESA radar ) .

Tejas is indian except for engine. Kaveri engine is about to be completed. Yet, you act arrogantly and keep saying that Tejas is foreign. Why? Just because AESA, EW needs upgradation doesn't mean there isn't any indian version at all. Just that Tejas was too small to fit them in. Unless you are sang UTTAM, DARE EW suite aren't Indian, don't dare say that Tejas isn't indgenous

Why have any plane at all if it isn't indigenous? Till we develop, no need of any planes. They are unusable anyways during war. We don't need showpieces

 

[square]

Indigenous items cost 0 as rupee can be controlled by govt. Why even bother about F16 when Tejas Mk2 is guaranteed? 5 years is enough for AESA, EW and BVR enhancement. Already 1st stage of development completed. Mk2 fuselage has to expand but that is also minor.

a private company has formed a jv to make fighter planes.......good !!!!

what is the problum , do we buy tata or mahendra cars only......iaf will also buy which suits them the most....after all it all going to make in india now...

 

[Vijyes]

a private company has formed a jv to make fighter planes.......good !!!!

what is the problum , do we buy tata or mahendra cars only......iaf will also buy which suits them the most....after all it all going to make in india now...

Do you buy Tesla cars here? Or do you buy only those that have service centres? Assembly line is not same as production facility

 

[airtel]

Tejas is indian except for engine.

not true (as of now ) .........there are many foreign components

Till we develop, no need of any planes.

India did not buy any plane , it is TATA which is Buying assembly line of LM .

what is Your Problem with that ?? tata has joint ventures with many foreign companies that does not mean Indian Government will buy their Products .

 

[Ancient Indian]

Why have any plane at all if it isn't indigenous? Till we develop, no need of any planes. They are unusable anyways during war. We don't need showpieces

We are not going to fight any big scale war in immediate future.

What industry need is big profits. To gain profits, you need to compete with other players. To compete with them, you need some showcase factor too.

Some how you are missing this important factor.

 

[square]

Do you buy Tesla cars here? Or do you buy only those that have service centres? Assembly line is not same as production facility

iaf will take care of every issue before making a commitment........to my understanding no one who bought f16 ever face any problum.....its cheap to maintain and very reliable machine.......

 

[Vijyes]

We are not going to fight any big scale war in immediate future.

What industry need is big profits. To gain profits, you need to compete with other players. To compete with them, you need some showcase factor too.

Some how you are missing this important factor.

Do you know all? How can you say that there won't be any large scale war? Who cares for money? Money only buys labour to work. Labour can be bought by other means too. Don't get over the nonsense communist, capitalist nonsense. Money can't buy all. No war also means no need for jets, tanks etc. Why bother?

 

[Vijyes]

iaf will take care of every issue before making a commitment........to my understanding no one who bought f16 ever face any problum.....its cheap to maintain and very reliable machine.......

What about Su-30? That jet is hopeless

 

[Ancient Indian]

Do you know all? How can you say that there won't be any large scale war? Who cares for money? Money only buys labour to work. Labour can be bought by other means too. Don't get over the nonsense communist, capitalist nonsense. Money can't buy all. No war also means no need for jets, tanks etc. Why bother?

I am talking about how to tap full potential of HAL. And you are going on about how we don't need any thing and all we need is just enough working flyware.

You are not getting my point. Let's leave it.

 

[square]

What about Su-30? That jet is hopeless

thats in twin engine catagory.....and the purchase of rafale means , no more mkis....

infect su30 needs upgrade to reach to the level of modren net centric 360 degree situational awearness which the rafale and the f16 block70 has......resent news suggest russians has formed jv with a italian farm for this.....means they don't have those capabilities and still need time and money to develope it...

 

[Pulkit]

We are already producing 6 Tejas a year and will be ramped up to 16 a year.

16 is the ideal scenario and given the current situation they are not gonna meet that ... Why ? When is FOC getting achieved.

HAL is not ramping up production as it is not receiving orders.

They knew the order size when the timeline were made

Tejas Mk1A is not a very potent plane.

As per IAF Mk1A will be better than Mk1

We need Mk2 which will be bigger and have more capacity like AESA radars etc. Once, the best possible version of Tejas is out, production can even go as high as 100 per year if there is a major requirement in a short span of time.

100 per year are you kidding me for that you will need atleast 1000+ on order or even more. 16 is the line capacity at max, given the spare and private vendors .One cannot reach that rate in this scenario

As of now, it stands that Tejas Mk2 will be ready by 2023 and with flight tests, by 2024-25.

Thats currently a bit optimistic

AMCA is set for 2025-26 with flight test for 2027-29.

Given everything goes as per plan which usually do not

Tejas Mk2 is being delayed for diverting the resources to AMCA.

But currently both are at stand still

So, this 114 Mk1A has to be in production till Mk2 is produced as the employees will need to have continuous job.

You wanna build 114 aircrafts over 15 years not a good rate

One can't just hire contract workers for production and fire them every now and then.

True but thats what resource management is

So, till Mk2 is ordered, HAL has to extend the production lines accordingly to accommodate its employees. It is not a matter of poor assembly line but necessity for continuity of employment

This is unrealistic and contradicting what you said about the rate of production that it will be ramped to 16 next year.