Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Bleh]

Good point!!....................

Where is the millimetre wave radar of FCS?

 

[Holy Triad]

Where is the millimetre wave radar of FCS?

Looks like only 11 out of 22 apaches fitted with longbow,

"Eleven of the 22 Apaches will come fitted with the highly prized AN/APG-78 Longbow fire control radar system "

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/mail-...rs-to-join-iaf-fleet-in-19-1298619-2018-07-28

Good point!!....................

 

[rone]

Looks like only 11 out of 22 apaches fitted with longbow,

"Eleven of the 22 Apaches will come fitted with the highly prized AN/APG-78 Longbow fire control radar system "

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/mail-...rs-to-join-iaf-fleet-in-19-1298619-2018-07-28

wow cant find why IAf decided to remove FCS from rest of 11?

 

[Bhadra]

wow cant find why IAf decided to remove FCS from rest of 11?

Because IAF is buying those for their air force needs rather than for supporting army operations..Too much of selfishness and politics involved in all walks of life in the country..

 

[armyofhind]

wow cant find why IAf decided to remove FCS from rest of 11?

Because firstly, there is a budget.

Secondly, standard tactic for attack helicopters is Hunter-Killer, because the strike package which will go out in a real world op will be ATLEAST a two ship formation.
The Longbow equipped Heli scans and tracks targets, while the other engages using data shared over the datalink.
This is actually pretty standard. The weapons launching platform can make itself more vulnerable to enemy AA since it has to engage from a closer distance. Doesn't make sense to expose the sensor platform as well to enemy AA at that time.
So while ensuring maximum survivability, it also ensures adherence to economics.
Longbow Radars are expensive.

Also, having two different Radars operating in the same battlespace in close proximity to each other doesn't afford any real advantages versus having only one.

Attack Helicopters don't operate on their own as a single platform outside of training missions.

 

[Bhadra]

Because firstly, there is a budget.

Secondly, standard tactic for attack helicopters is Hunter-Killer, because the strike package which will go out in a real world op will be ATLEAST a two ship formation.
The Longbow equipped Heli scans and tracks targets, while the other engages using data shared over the datalink.
This is actually pretty standard. The weapons launching platform can make itself more vulnerable to enemy AA since it has to engage from a closer distance. Doesn't make sense to expose the sensor platform as well to enemy AA at that time.
So while ensuring maximum survivability, it also ensures adherence to economics.
Longbow Radars are expensive.

Also, having two different Radars operating in the same battlespace in close proximity to each other doesn't afford any real advantages versus having only one.

Attack Helicopters don't operate on their own as a single platform outside of training missions.

Does US Army operates it that way ?

Doe that mean that Apache 64 will also be able to control and direct fires of Indian attack helicopters or Russian attack helicopters operated by IAF / Army as hunter killer team?

Is it suitable for Scouting operations?

What about its use in punching an air corridor through ground based enemy radar and AD systems and its uses in anti UAV or pro UAV operations ?

 

[Bhadra]

.................................

 

[armyofhind]

Does US Army operates it that way ?

Pretty much every modern military operates attack helis like this.

Doe that mean that Apache 64 will also be able to control and direct fires of Indian attack helicopters or Russian attack helicopters operated by IAF / Army as hunter killer team?

Not unless the americans are sharing the source code of the datalink software with us. Otherwise Apaches can talk to only Apaches. Anyway, with the Apache coming, Mi-35 will be retired or handed over to a foreign military.

Is it suitable for Scouting operations?

Sensor based recon, yes. For visual scouting, I don't think using an Apache is a good idea when we already have the Chetak and Lancers for it.

What about its use in punching an air corridor through ground based enemy radar and AD systems and its uses in anti UAV or pro UAV operations ?

In a SEAD type mission, Apaches will not be emitting themselves as the general idea there is to go low and slow using as much of stealth as possible, guided by either UAV based surveillance or a J-STARS/AWACS type aircraft.

In Op Desert Storm, Apaches were the first aerial machines in the battle, used to destroy Iraqi early warning RADAR.

 

[Bhadra]

Pretty much every modern military operates attack helis like this.


Not unless the americans are sharing the source code of the datalink software with us. Otherwise Apaches can talk to only Apaches. Anyway, with the Apache coming, Mi-35 will be retired or handed over to a foreign military.


Sensor based recon, yes. For visual scouting, I don't think using an Apache is a good idea when we already have the Chetak and Lancers for it.


In a SEAD type mission, Apaches will not be emitting themselves as the general idea there is to go low and slow using as much of stealth as possible, guided by either UAV based surveillance or a J-STARS/AWACS type aircraft.

In Op Desert Storm, Apaches were the first aerial machines in the battle, used to destroy Iraqi early warning RADAR.

Thanks.
If US is not going to share source code of data link then use of Chetak and Lancers as scouts to Apache hunter killer team would also not be possible. I wonder how then are these going to communicate with ground forces or pass on data to them, FAC and SF teams ? If these are used for UAV control then those UAVs must have data links with ground forces? Some problems there or it must have been thought through ?

But we have signed COMCASA.

As per the video above and another video on UTube this is a good machine for mountainous areas as also naval operations. Some thing on naval operations please. I am sure it is not going to hunt pirate boats ?

Is it capable of high altitude operations?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Thanks.
If US is not going to share source code of data link then use of Chetak and Lancers as scouts to Apache hunter killer team would also not be possible. I wonder how then are these going to communicate with ground forces or pass on data to them, FAC and SF teams ? If these are used for UAV control then those UAVs must have data links with ground forces? Some problems there or it must have been thought through ?

But we have signed COMCASA.

As per the video above and another video on UTube this is a good machine for mountainous areas as also naval operations. Some thing on naval operations please. I am sure it is not going to hunt pirate boats ?

Is it capable of high altitude operations?

Do you think we will use COMCASA equipment with our helicopters? COMCASA is controlled by USA and India has no control over the communication channels. India is not even allowed to open and check the communication devices nor install its own secure softwares.

COMCASA was only a means of getting latest technology from USA but the integration with other equipments is unlikely. Only USA made equipments may be fitted with COMCASA as USA can anyways compromise the machines with bacdoor bugs and hence COMCASA can't cause any more harm.

So, it is highly unikely that India will be able to use apache as any lead role helicopter. The Apaches will only be used for training and learning purpose so as to have experience when developing Indian technology.

 

[Kchontha]

Is India developing indigenous fire control radar for lch or rudra?

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

 

[gryphus-scarface]

https://www.business-standard.com/a...w-it-helps-indian-defence-118090600988_1.html

"This agreement permits Indian military to function on high-end secured and encrypted communication equipment that are installed on American platforms obtained by Indian Armed Forces. These platforms include C-130 J, C-17, P-8I aircraft, and Apache and Chinook helicopters. This facilitates greater interoperability between forces and military hardware of the two countries, and also possibly with other countries that operate on US-origin platforms. Due to non-signing of COMCASA, these platforms were using commercially available communication systems."

India doesn't have control over the equipment they bought. This is exactly how US operates, and one of the reasons I'm glad we bought Russian hardware for a long time instead of American hardware.

All of the platforms in question are American. The only thing this allows is for Indians to communicate and ordinate with US. It in no way gives India extra autonomy.

The only extra is we can install our own extras, like comms in this case.

 

[Bhadra]

India doesn't have control over the equipment they bought. This is exactly how US operates, and one of the reasons I'm glad we bought Russian hardware for a long time instead of American hardware.

All of the platforms in question are American. The only thing this allows is for Indians to communicate and ordinate with US. It in no way gives India extra autonomy.

The only extra is we can install our own extras, like comms in this case.

Thank you dear !!..................

 

[Bhadra]

Do you think we will use COMCASA equipment with our helicopters? COMCASA is controlled by USA and India has no control over the communication channels. India is not even allowed to open and check the communication devices nor install its own secure softwares.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...w-it-helps-indian-defence-118090600988_1.html

This agreement permits Indian military to function on high-end secured and encrypted communication equipment that are installed on American platforms obtained by Indian Armed Forces. These platforms include C-130 J, C-17, P-8I aircraft, and Apache and Chinook helicopters. This facilitates greater interoperability between forces and military hardware of the two countries, and also possibly with other countries that operate on US-origin platforms. Due to non-signing of COMCASA, these platforms were using commercially available communication systems.

COMCASA was only a means of getting latest technology from USA but the integration with other equipments is unlikely. Only USA made equipments may be fitted with COMCASA as USA can anyways compromise the machines with bacdoor bugs and hence COMCASA can't cause any more harm.

What is interoperability ?? I hope you read the quote.

So, it is highly unikely that India will be able to use apache as any lead role helicopter. The Apaches will only be used for training and learning purpose so as to have experience when developing Indian technology.

Satte marana thik namin hai !!!!

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

https://www.business-standard.com/a...w-it-helps-indian-defence-118090600988_1.html

This agreement permits Indian military to function on high-end secured and encrypted communication equipment that are installed on American platforms obtained by Indian Armed Forces. These platforms include C-130 J, C-17, P-8I aircraft, and Apache and Chinook helicopters. This facilitates greater interoperability between forces and military hardware of the two countries, and also possibly with other countries that operate on US-origin platforms. Due to non-signing of COMCASA, these platforms were using commercially available communication systems.



What is interoperability ?? I hope you read the quote.




Satte marana thik namin hai !!!!

I am only speaking of "intent" of India signing COMCASA, not the provision. India is just keeping its options open by COMCASA so as to get high end technology of USA to understand and gain experience. India can use COMCASA in all equipment but why will India use that?

COMCASA permits India to use it on any equipment but that does not mean India will use it. Using COMCASA is a security risk to India. India does not need interoperability with USA military as there is no common interest.

The equipment ordered by India before signing COMCASA do not have any COMSEC instruments. So, C130 does not have such equipment. It can be installed if India wants, but question is why does India need such an equipment?

Also, India does not use commercially available equipment as India needs to connect to its own military satellites for communications. India does not lack its own manufacturing of comms equipment.

 

[Bhadra]

I am only speaking of "intent" of India signing COMCASA, not the provision. India is just keeping its options open by COMCASA so as to get high end technology of USA to understand and gain experience. India can use COMCASA in all equipment but why will India use that?

COMCASA permits India to use it on any equipment but that does not mean India will use it. Using COMCASA is a security risk to India. India does not need interoperability with USA military as there is no common interest.

The equipment ordered by India before signing COMCASA do not have any COMSEC instruments. So, C130 does not have such equipment. It can be installed if India wants, but question is why does India need such an equipment?

Also, India does not use commercially available equipment as India needs to connect to its own military satellites for communications. India does not lack its own manufacturing of comms equipment.

Why are you supporting a netherlands flag when you have so much insider information?
I do not need anything, why will I sign for it ?? Indians must be fools .... kamal ka fools....

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Why are you supporting a netherlands flag when you have so much insider information?
I do not need anything, why will I sign for it ?? Indians must be fools .... kamal ka fools....

I am using a proxy. Sometimes it will be Germany, USA, Russia etc. So, the flag is not something I am supporting but location of my proxy server.

India does not need COMCASA integration but needs high tech items of USA to study & learn. USA laws says that USA will give them only if India signs COMCASA. Hence India signed it as a formality. There is no foolishness in it. India signing COMCASA serves the purpose of satisfying USA law for exports of restricted items and nothing else. So, extrapolating COMCASA to be used for interoperability will be dangerous

 

[Bhadra]

I am using a proxy. Sometimes it will be Germany, USA, Russia etc. So, the flag is not something I am supporting but location of my proxy server.

India does not need COMCASA integration but needs high tech items of USA to study & learn. USA laws says that USA will give them only if India signs COMCASA. Hence India signed it as a formality. There is no foolishness in it. India signing COMCASA serves the purpose of satisfying USA law for exports of restricted items and nothing else. So, extrapolating COMCASA to be used for interoperability will be dangerous

Come on man .. we do not want such equipment for "study".... We are not buying this equipment for DODO University but to kill Paki or Chinki tanks and other military targets ?

You study guys have been a big KLPD for so many years... and who pays you all for "study" ????

 

[Holy Triad]

IAF gets its first Apache attack helicopter from Boeing, 21 more to come

The Boeing Company handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) on Friday the first of 22 Apache attack helicopters that India contracted to buy in September 2015 for about $3 billion at current prices.

An IAF officer, Air Marshal AS Butola, travelled to Boeing’s helicopter production facility at Mesa, Arizona, to attend the handing over ceremony, alongside US government representatives.

The IAF is buying the latest version of the Apache, designated the AH-64E (I) Apache Guardian. The first batch of 4-6 helicopters will be shipped to India in July, says the defence ministry.

The Apaches are being acquired through a hybrid contract. The helicopter itself has been contracted through a “direct commercial sale” (DCS) with Boeing. However, the radar and assortment of weaponry, including missiles, rockets and cannon bullets, are being acquired directly from the Pentagon through a “foreign military sale” (FMS).

The Apache is widely acknowledged to be the world’s most lethal combat helicopter, having flown about a million mission hours in conflicts from the First Gulf War in 1991 to the on-going fighting in Afghanistan.

It can operate by day or night with equal effectiveness, flying just metres above the ground and sheltering behind trees and sand dunes. Its advanced Longbow radar picks up enemy armoured vehicles and then destroys them with anti-tank missiles, air-to-surface rockets or a chain gun that sends 625 rounds per minute ripping into the targets. Designed to operate as the airborne component of a highly mobile, armour-heavy strike corps, the Apache has been dubbed the “flying tank”.

“The ability of these helicopters, to transmit and receive the battlefield picture, to and from the weapon systems through data networking, makes it a lethal acquisition,” said the defence ministry on Saturday.

Ground combat experts say the Apache should have been a straightforward buy of a premier tank-killing platform for the army’s three strike corps, instead of joining the IAF fleet. Former defence minister, AK Antony, after deciding that the new “Army Aviation Corps” would fly the army’s tactical support helicopters, succumbed to IAF pressure and allocated them the Apache.

Consequently, the 22 Apaches, distributed between two air force squadrons, will have the wartime role of “suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD)”. This refers to the US doctrine of destroying enemy air defence radars and missile batteries near the border, allowing fighter aircraft to cross into enemy airspace undetected.

Army aviation specialists reject this notion, arguing that the relatively slow-flying Apaches would be quickly picked up by Chinese or Pakistani surveillance radars and then shot down by their dense defensive network of anti-air missiles, guns and fighter aircraft. They point out that the US Army could use Apaches for SEAD only in highly asymmetrical conflicts like Iraq, where the US enjoyed overwhelming air superiority.

Acknowledging the army’s need for the Apache, the defence ministry has kicked off aseparate procurement of six Apache Guardians for the army’s strike corps. Last June, the US Congress was notified about the proposed sale to India of six AH-64E Apache helicopters for an estimated $930 million.

These are for the first of three Apache units planned for the army’s three strike corps. Each squadron would have ten helicopters, and a thirty per cent reserve in depots to replenish losses caused by accidents or casualties.

Separately, the IAF and army are acquiring the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), designed and developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which is now close to being operationally certified. The lighter LCH is optimised for providing supporting fire to infantry soldiers in high altitude combat. The heavier, bigger Apache is more suited to mechanised warfare in plains terrain.

There is no “Make in India” component, or transfer of technology, in the Apache deal. The helicopter is to be built entirely in the US, then defence minister Manohar Parrikar informed the Lok Sabha on November 28, 2014.

However, the US Army is providing training at Fort Rucker, Alabama to the IAF pilots and maintenance personnel who will operate the Apache fleet.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...-are-planned-for-the-army-119051100361_1.html

wow cant find why IAf decided to remove FCS from rest of 11?

This article says,radars and armaments will be brought separately through fms.

 

[Bhadra]

The Operative parts :

Consequently, the 22 Apaches, distributed between two air force squadrons, will have the wartime role of “suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD)”. This refers to the US doctrine of destroying enemy air defence radars and missile batteries near the border, allowing fighter aircraft to cross into enemy airspace undetected.

Army aviation specialists reject this notion, arguing that the relatively slow-flying Apaches would be quickly picked up by Chinese or Pakistani surveillance radars and then shot down by their dense defensive network of anti-air missiles, guns and fighter aircraft. They point out that the US Army could use Apaches for SEAD only in highly asymmetrical conflicts like Iraq, where the US enjoyed overwhelming air superiority.


And my apprehensions were right - post # 3484

I say let them buy it. If it comes short of SEAD tasks hen those can always be used to support Army operations. These can not be used as Taxis a la Virat.